Posted on 04/10/2009 10:32:45 AM PDT by DouglasKC
Where does this say that the Ten Commandments are eliminated?
If the entire Bible consisted of only these two verses you might have a point. And if men were angels no government would be necessary. Even so, the first verse you quote, verse 11, explicitly contradicts your claim later in your post that
[...]the Levitical sacrifices were not part of the original law that God wanted obeyed [Jeremiah 7:22-26].....they were added later because of the sins of the people [Galatians 3:19]. Paul says that the first Covenant was made obsolete by the new covenant [Hebrews 8:13] and then goes on to explain in the very next 10 verses what that first covenant was. Then in the very next 18 verses specifically pinpoints the Levitical sacrifices as the first covenant......that was changed.
Hebrew 7:11 says that under the Levitical priesthood the people received the law. You say they were "they were added later because of the sins of the people [Galatians 3:19]".
"They" [the Levitical sacrifices] were added later because of the sins of the people??? Galatians 3:19 does not say, "they", it says, referring to "the law", "it" was added later:
19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.
If you are unrestrained by any Biblical hermeneutic then I guess you can just change the meaning of the text at whim with your own word substitutions and make it say anything you want it to say. But you contradict the very language of Scripture.
"...the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law" proves the Scriptural unity of the law of Moses, and disproves your bifurcation of it. Btw, Verse 17 says WHEN "the law" was added; 430 years after Abraham, and it is very clear what law is being referred to.
[...] and then goes on to explain in the very next 10 verses what that first covenant was. Then in the very next 18 verses specifically pinpoints the Levitical sacrifices as the first covenant......that was changed.
Tell me, then, if you will, what "the tables of the covenant" in verse 4, means. What are "the tables of the covenant"?
Deuteronomy 4:13
So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.Deuteronomy 9:9-11
When I went up into the mountains to receive the tablets of stone, even the tablets of the covenant which the Lord had made with you...and the Lord gave me the two tablets of stone written with the finger of God...the Lord gave me the two tablets of stone, even the tablets of the covenant.Exodus 34:27,28
Then the Lord said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant- -the Ten Commandments.Galatians 4:24,25
These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.
[...]Now.....I've just stayed in John's writings because that was your stipulation. Don't you think the above verses qualify as the Ten Commandments?
Answered in 1,116 You never answered my previous question; Do you think that God has any commandments besides the Ten?
The Ten Commandments were in effect prior to Moses and Sinai and are still in effect today. They are eternal.
Answered in 1,133 and elsewhere throughout the thread.
What was the sign of the Old Covenant?
What is the sign of the New Covenant?
Cordially,
Exactly. It all boils down to whether the will of God revealed through his Son in the New Testament is higher authority than the Old Testament, or not. Are the commandments of the New Testament to be interpreted and administered as of the New Covenant or as of the Old Covenant? The idea of of interpreting commandments in light of the Covenant under which they are given seems to baffle them. They are like an applicant who goes into Probate Court expecting the Court to administer an Estate under an old will that has been revoked and superseded by a new will that has already been admitted, and they can't even understand why the framework they want to impose on the administration of the Estate is an absurdity. It doesn't matter how many of the provisions of the new will are similar to the provisions of the old, or different from it, the estate is still going to be administered under the new will, not the old. Their unwillingness to accept the obvious would at least account for what frequently appears as reckless indifference to hermeneutic consistency.
Cordially,
Indeed! Hermeneutic consistency (or rather the lack thereof) is a common source of erroneous doctrines.
Commandment 1: Paul said, "God, who made the world and everything in it...they should seek the Lord" (Acts 17:24,27). Paul also said, "I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law" (Acts 24:14). "And what agreement has the temple of God have with idols?" (II Cor 6:16). "you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God" (I The 1:9). "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God" (2 The 2:3-4).
Commandment 2: "we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols" (Acts 15:20). "Now while Paul waited for them in Athens, his spirit was provoked within him when he saw that the city was given over to idols...Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said...'God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed anything'" (Acts 17:16,22,24-25). "Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four footed animals and creeping things" (Rom 1:22-23). "But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is...an idolater" (I Cor 5:11). "Neither... idolators...will inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor 6:9-10). "And do not become idolaters as were some of them...Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry" (I Cor 10:7,14). "And what agreement has the temple of God have with idols?" (II Cor 6:16). "Now the works of the flesh are evident...idolatry" (Gal 5:19,20). "For this you know that no...idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God" (Eph 5:5). "Therefore put to death...covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col 3:5). "you turned to God from idols" (I The 1:9).
Commandment 3: "they are all under sin...Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness" (Rom 3:9,14). "Let all...evil speaking be put away from you" (Eph 4:31). "But now you yourselves are to put off all these:...blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth" (Col 3:8). "they may learn not to blaspheme" (I Tim 1:20). But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be...blasphemers" (II Tim 3:1,2).
Commandment 4: "Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures...And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks" (Acts 17:2;18:4 see also 13:14,27,42,44). "let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give to him who has need" (Eph 4:28) and "For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: 'If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat'" (II Thes 3:10); (recall that the requirement to work is also part of the Sabbath command, thus even that portion of the commandment is repeated in the New Testament.) "And to whom did He swear they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?" (Heb 3:18). "For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: 'And God rested on the seventh day from all His works'" (Heb 4:4). "There remains therefore a rest (literally sabbatismos, 'Sabbath rest') for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His" (Heb 4:9-10).
Commandment 5: "being filled with all unrighteousness ...disobedient to parents" (Rom 1:29,30). "Children obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 'Honor your father and mother', which is the first commandment with promise: that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth" (Eph 6:1-3). "the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience" (Col 3:6). "Children obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing to the Lord" (Col 3:20). "But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be...disobediant to parents" (II Tim 3:1,2).
Commandment 6: "being filled with all unrighteousness ...murder" (Rom 1:29). "You shall not murder" (Rom 13:9). "Now the works of the flesh are evident...murders" (Gal 5:19,21). "the lawless and insubordinate...murders...manslayers" (I Tim 1:9).
Commandment 7: "being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality" (Rom 1:29). "So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress" (Rom 7:3). "You shall not commit adultery" (Rom 13:9). "But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral" (I Cor 5:11). "Neither... adulterers, nor homosexuals...will inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor 6:9-10)."Nor let us commit sexual immorality as some of them did" (I Cor 10:8). "Now the works of the flesh are evident...adultery, fornication" (Gal 5:19). "For this you know that no fornicator...has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God" (Eph 5:5). "the lawless and insubordinate...fornicators...sodomites" (I Tim 1:9,10). "fornicators and adulterers God will judge" (Heb 13:4).
Commandment 8: "You shall not steal" (Rom 13:9). "nor thieves...will inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor 6:10). "I have been...in perils of robbers" (II Cor 11:25-26). "Let him who stole, steal no longer" (Eph 4:28).
Commandment 9: "You shall not bear false witness" (Rom 13:9). "Therefore, putting away lying" (Eph 4:25). "Do not lie to one another" (Col 3:9). "the lawless and insubordinate...liars...perjurers" (I Tim 1:9,10). "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy" (I Tim 4:1-2). "But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be...slanderers" (II Tim 3:1,3). "God, who cannot lie" (Ti 1:2). "it is impossible for God to lie" (Heb 6:18).
Commandment 10: "being filled with all unrighteousness...covetousness" (Rom 1:29)."You shall not covet" (Rom 7:7). "You shall not covet" (Rom 13:9). "But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is...covetous" (I Cor 5:11). "nor covetous...will inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor 6:10). "we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted" (I Cor 10:6). "you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh" (Gal 5:16). "For this you know that no fornicator...nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God" (Eph 5:5). "Therefore put to death...covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col 3:5). "For neither at any time did we use flattering words, as you know, nor a cloak for covetousness" (I The 2:5). "Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have" (Heb 13:5).
Don't you see how silly this position is....to say that the Ten Commandments are no longer in effect when Our Lord and The Apostles continued to teach their observance all throughout the New Testament?
I have really never encountered someone who is so wrapped up in the idea that God's Law has been abolished. I certainly hope that you are able to come to the truth someday.......soon.
You can have the last word, my FRiend.
Your silence on critical points of contention combined with your hurling of elephants on points already stipulated and agreed to makes me wonder sometimes whether you even read my posts. After I took your own 'proof' texts (Hebrews 7:11-12; 8:13-9:28) and showed you three instances where the explicit language of those texts refutes your claim that the Levitical sacrifices constituted the entire Old Covenant that was abolished, what is your response here? Here once again you fail to advance any argument or evidence to support your artificial bifurcation of the Old Covenant. I provided three examples from your citations; first with respect to the comparison of the Old Covenant to a last will and testament (Hebrew 9:16-22), second in relation to The Tables of the Covenant (Hebrew 9:4) and third, with respect to under the Levitical priesthood the people received the law, which explictly contradicts your baseless claim that the Levitical sacrifices were not part of the original law and were added later because of the sins of the people.
What is your specific response to my examples? Absolute, deafening silence. You simply ignore these examples and repeat your original claim, as if that constituted a specific counter argument or response. You say nothing in response about
a last will and testament (Hebrew 9:16-22),
The Tables of the Covenant (Hebrew 9:4)
under the Levitical priesthood the people received the law. (Hebrews 7:11) .
Since you are the one who brought up the passages in the first place, doesn't it occur to you that merely repeating your original claim and making no counter argument regarding regarding the specific language of the texts that you yourself quoted is completely unresponsive? I can only take this to mean that you are apparently uninterested or unable to provide a substantive, specific response. I understand why. You cannot even bring yourself to admit out loud what The Tables of the Covenant from the passage that you quoted (Hebrew 9) means or refers to, for example, even though you know that it refers to the Ten Commandments, because to admit the obvious destroys your artificial and imaginary bifurcation of the Old Covenant. So what do you do? You pass by The Tables of the Covenant in complete silence and instead post lists of commandments from the New Testament that we already agree are binding, the exception of course being the absence of a sabbath keeping commandment for Christians, which is the bone of contention. You have nothing to say about how plainly and how repeatedly the Ten Commandments are called "the Covenant", which God gave at Sinai to Israel when he brought them out of Egypt.
Your claims that the Ten Commandments (as such) were taught by Our Savior during His ministry here on Earth, were continued by the Apostles after His death, and were in force prior to Sinai are either not dispositive of the issue and/or, particularly with regard the the sabbath commandment, have already been refuted specifically in previous posts.
Don't you see how silly this position is....to say that the Ten Commandments are no longer in effect when Our Lord and The Apostles continued to teach their observance all throughout the New Testament?
I have really never encountered someone who is so wrapped up in the idea that God's Law has been abolished. I certainly hope that you are able to come to the truth someday.......soon.
We are not Antinomians, if that's what you're trying to intimate. We are under the law of Christ. 1 Corinthians 9:21, Galatians 6:2. "Fulfill the law of Christ." But you use the phrase, "God's Law", applying it to the Ten Commandments alone as if "God's Law" were just the Ten Commandments and nothing more. That is the cause of much of your error. Scripture never once calls the Ten Commandments alone "God's Law". And you never answered whether God has any other commandments besides ten.
I will simply add here again with your examples of Jesus, he himself was born under the law, lived his life under it perfectly, and his instructions at that time were to those still under the law. To the cleansed leper he said, "go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift Moses commanded, as a testimony to them." (Matthew 8:4) Do you apply this to Christians now and conclude that we must offer gifts according to Moses? When Christ said, "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. Do you do that? Or do you practice circumcision because Jesus was circumcised?
Paul shaved his head and engaged in purification rites and made offerings ( (Acts 21:20-26). Do you practice those things? Paul was circumcised. He had Timothy circumcised. Do you practice those requirements of the law? If you don't, is it ok to accuse you of lawlessness, or would that be silly?
One final point. Do you really think that if the Sabbath were a really a binding requirement on Christians, that Paul would have left a Divine Commandment such as that up to individual conscience, as he did in Colossians 2:16?
Cordially,
I ran across this thread some time ago and found it immensely helpful.
I thought it might be a good idea to resurrect it, so to speak, for this Easter season.
I’ve been asked by atheists and skeptics how to reconcile the three days and three nights that Jesus said He would spend in the tomb and based on our calendar and timeline for celebrating Easter, there was no good reasonable explanation.
This article provides it.
So, for your consideration......
Thanks!
do not inquire after their gods, saying, 'How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.' You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way;
I find this verse mentioned in the article very interesting. I was just reading this verse in my Bible in bed the other night. So many folks incorporate pagan rituals, dates and symbols into their worship of God and I am sure it is not pleasing to Him, especially since He said specifically NOT to do such things...
I guess I never caught on that special festival and feast days were considered sabbath’s as well.
Of course, every knows what the Sabbath is, the seventh day, the day of rest.
It’s good to have this in your apologetics arsenal for next time some smarmy atheist challenges you on it as if they found some inconsistency which renders Christianity invalid.
*hugs*
“14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz. 15 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these. 16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. 17 Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose. 18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.”
God sent a series of prophets to the nation of Israel in an attempt to warn them of the impending consequences of adopting the idolatrous religious practices of their neighbors. Isaiah was instructed to write: "Your appointed feasts My soul hates" (Isaiah 1:14–15). Amos recorded: "I hate, I despise your feast days, and I do not savor your sacred assemblies" (Amos 5:21–23). Hosea warned Israel: "I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her New Moons, her Sabbaths—all her appointed feasts" (Hosea 2:11). God told Ezekiel to explain to the elders of Israel that they were punished by God and went into national captivity because "they rebelled against Me and would not obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which are before their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt… they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments… and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths" (Ezekiel 20:8, 13). One idolatrous practice that God called an abomination involved women weeping for Tammuz (one source of Lenten customs) and "worshipping the sun towards the east" (Ezekiel 8:14–20)—a practice that continues in Easter sunrise services today.
The celebration of Easter is and abomination to God.
HERE is the problem!
You know, that was the only logical conclusion I could come to.
This article deals with it the best I’ve seen yet.
Oh?
I'd bet that most would say it's SUNDAY!
Good Screen name!
Thanks for the ping!
That’s what makes me investigate and make sure I know the truth. Anyone who knows pagan history makes fun of the Christians who celebrate Easter knowing they are performing pagan rituals. God admonishes us many times in scripture about adapting pagan practices. The Israelites were punished many times because of it. I’m not willing to take that chance.
Thanks for resurrecting this article....it is a keeper for sure.
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