Skip to comments.AND WITH YOUR SPIRIT, Et cum spiritu tuo, (New Missal liturgical translations)
Posted on 06/21/2009 3:05:45 PM PDT by Salvation
Notes on the New Translation of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia
(from the August 2005 Newsletter © 2008 USCCB)
While there are many and complex elements of the translation yet to be decided by the Bishops, the translation of several phrases in the Order of Mass have been previously decided by the instruction Liturgiam authenticam. Among these are certain expressions that belong to the heritage of the whole or of a great part of the ancient Church, as well as others that have become part of the general human patrimony Therefore, the response Et cum spiritu tuo is to be respected by a translation that is as literal as possible."1 Commentaries for a popular understanding of these two elements of the Liturgy are provided here and may be reproduced freely with the customary copyright acknowledgement by our readers.
AND WITH YOUR SPIRIT
Perhaps the most common dialogue in the Liturgy of the Roman Rite consists of the greeting :
et cum spiritu tuo
Since 1970, this has been translated as:
The Lord be with you.
And also with you.
As a part of the revised translation of the Roman Missal, now taking place, the translation of this dialogue has been revised, to read:
The Lord be with you.
And with your spirit.
The Lord be with you.
The Lord be with you.
Since it is clear that the change to and with your spirit is a significant and wide ranging change in a longstanding liturgical practice, the following questions are provided to clarify the reasons for the change and the meaning of the dialogue itself.
1. Why has the response et cum spiritu tuo been translated as and with your spirit?
The retranslation was necessary because it is a more correct rendering of et cum spiritu tuo. Recent scholarship has recognized the need for a more precise translation capable of expressing the full meaning of the Latin text.
2. What about the other major languages? Do they have to change their translations?
No. English is the only major language of the Roman Rite which did not translate the word spiritu. The Italian (E con il tuo spirito), French (Et avec votre esprit), Spanish (Y con tu espíritu) and German (Und mit deinem Geiste) renderings of 1970 all translated the Latin word spiritu precisely.
3. Has the Holy See ever addressed this question?
In 2001, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments published an instruction entitled, Liturgiam authenticam, subtitled, On the Use of Vernacular Languages in the Publication of the Books of the Roman Liturgy. The instruction directs specifically that: Certain expressions that belong to the heritage of the whole or of a great part of the ancient Church, as well as others that have become part of the general human patrimony, are to be respected by a translation that is as literal as possible, as for example the words of the peoples response Et cum spiritu tuo, or the expression mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa in the Act of Penance of the Order of Mass.2
4. Where does this dialogue come from?
The response et cum spiritu tuo is found in the Liturgies of both East and West, from the earliest days of the Church. One of the first instances of its use is found in the Traditio Apostolica of Saint Hippolytus, composed in Greek around AD 215.
5. How is this dialogue used in the Liturgy?
The dialogue is only used between the priest and the people, or exceptionally, between the deacon and the people. The greeting is never used in the Roman Liturgy between a non-ordained person and the gathered assembly.
6. Why does the priest mean when he says The Lord be with you?
By greeting the people with the words The Lord be with you, the priest expresses his desire that the dynamic activity of Gods spirit be given to the people of God, enabling them to do the work of transforming the world that God has entrusted to them.
7. What do the people mean when they respond and with your spirit?
The expression et cum spiritu tuo is only addressed to an ordained minister. Some scholars have suggested that spiritu refers to the gift of the spirit he received at ordination. In their response, the people assure the priest of the same divine assistance of Gods spirit and, more specifically, help for the priest to use the charismatic gifts given to him in ordination and in so doing to fulfill his prophetic function in the Church.
8. What further reading could you suggest on this dialogue?
For those who wish to pursue this issue from a more scholarly perspective, they might consult:
People: And with your spirit. (Et cum spiritu tuo)
Any other thoughts out there?
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In the Source link and the name of the site, my fingers seem to be hitting an E rather than a U
Could you please change both to USCCB?
Just bring back the Latin and you won’t have to worry about the official translations.
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“Y con tu espiritu!”
“Just bring back the Latin and you wont have to worry about the official translations.”
Which means that once you get back to the Latin of the Late Middle Ages, you need to go to the Latin of the Early Middle Ages, and then the Latin of the Late Roman Period ~ or maybe the Middle Byzantine Period ~ or maybe even to Modern, Medieval, Byzantine, or possibly even Classical Greek (depending on phrase or clause at dispute, and when it originated, and which authorities of which rank and reputation ever commented on it).
In general it's usually more efficient to simply come up with a more modern statement than to try to figure out what a writer/source/authority meant more than a thousand years back.
There are people who despise modernism but that's a whole 'nuther question.
With several years of Latin under my belt and a thorough grounding in Spanish, French, German, Italian and several other languages, I couldn't quite figure out what the translating authority had done by simply leaving the spiritu part out. Left me feeling I must have missed class one time too many or something.
Michael K. Magee, The Liturgical Translation of the Response Et cum spiritu tuo: Communio 29 (Spring 2002) 152-171.
W.C. Van Unnik, Dominus Vobiscum: The Background of a Liturgical Formula: A.J.B. Higgins (ed.), New Testament Essays (Manchester, University Press, 1959) 270-305.
19 and 35 page articles on something as simple as “The Lord be with you,” and its response! Liturgical scholars can be very thorough. ICEL translators? Not so much.
I’ve been attending a traditional Latin Mass near my house, so there is no translation problem.
"Καὶ τῷ πνεύματί σου".
This is usually preceeded by "Εἰρήνη πᾶσι" meaning "Peace be with you. It is also used in response to:
" Ἡ χάρις τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ καὶ ἡ ἀγάπη τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ Πατρὸς καὶ ἡ κοινωνία τοῦ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος εἴη μετὰ πάντων ὑμῶν.", "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God the Father and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with all of you."
"Καὶ ἔσται τὰ ἐλέη τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ μετὰ πάντων ἡμῶν." "The mercy of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ be with all of us."
No way we'd say "And also with you"! Its good to see Rome requiring the American Church to toe the line.
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Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment
**”The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God the Father and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with all of you.”**
That is beautiful.
“That is beautiful.”
Indeed it is, chanted out over the People of God. It was especially beautiful today. Our Metropolitan visited so we had a concelebrated hierarchial liturgy which is really speacial and impressive. The Met. prayed specially for our troops in Afganistan and Iraq and then prayed for “The non Chrisitian, Mohammedan people of Iran who are fearlessly asserting their right to that Freedom which is the birthright of all children of God.”
It is exciting, but I am trying not to get my hopes up. Will all of the bishops have to agree to it? When will it be implemented? My priest is the more progressive type and has even said that he is not interested in learning Latin.
Perhaps they won’t agree and that would be OK with me, because it will get approved by the Vatican for all English speaking countries at that point and the bishops here won’t have anything to say about it. LOl!
Interesting point: When a bishop presides at Mass, one of the "Dominus vobiscum"'s is changed to "Pax vobis".
That is beautiful.
That is the opening Greeting of the Eucharistic liturgy of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America; first introduced in the 1978 Lutheran Book of Worship and continued in the 2007 Evangelical Luthean Worship.
I wholeheartedly agree.
Also,I think “It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven” is supposed to be changed taking out “all” and replacing it with “many” or “some”???
I believe you are right, but I heard a priest talk about all these changes about three years ago.
Whew! It’s good to know that it’s about all over.
For those of us who have only known the 1970 NO, this is going to be very different.
good. It will be nice to have beautiful language in church.
But I live in the Philippines, so our mass is in Tagalog...I’ll have to check the translation.
Here, in the Our Father, we ask for our daily food, not bread,because the main food is rice..... but in other places they do use the local word for bread in the mass.
Salvation: That is beautiful.
Straight out of 2 Cor 13:13 (could be 13:14 in some modern Bibles).
As regards the text you posted I found the following somewhat weak: "Recent scholarship has recognized the need for a more precise translation capable of expressing the full meaning of the Latin text."
Recent scholarship? The Church has been using this for at least 1800 years. Recent scholarship, i.e. post-Vatican II activists in America decided to ditch the tradition and re-invent the wheel. The only thing that's really difficult to believe is that it took 39 years to try to correct this. How come JPII did nothing about it?
It is the greeting if the Orthodox Divine Liturgy and has been in use liturgically at least since the middle of the 4th century to this day, 1700 years in all.
Oh, no, not him too, please!
“Oh, no, not him too, please!”
Yup, him too!
“When a bishop presides at Mass, one of the “Dominus vobiscum”’s is changed to “Pax vobis”.”
That is interesting. Maybe the ancient form has held on in the hierarchial liturgies where it has been lost in the other masses.
“That is the opening Greeting of the Eucharistic liturgy of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America; first introduced in the 1978 Lutheran Book of Worship and continued in the 2007 Evangelical Luthean Worship.”
Is the response “And with thy spirit”?
But he did. Read the article.
In 2001, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments published an instruction entitled, Liturgiam authenticam, subtitled, On the Use of Vernacular Languages in the Publication of the Books of the Roman Liturgy. The instruction directs specifically that: Certain expressions that belong to the heritage of the whole or of a great part of the ancient Church, as well as others that have become part of the general human patrimony, are to be respected by a translation that is as literal as possible, as for example the words of the peoples response Et cum spiritu tuo, or the expression mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa in the Act of Penance of the Order of Mass.
John Paul II was pope in 2001. It's just taken some time to get the official texts officially translated and approved.
The translation was made in 1970, eight years before JPII became the pope. You mean to tell me he didn't know the translation was wrong when he became the pope?
The Church finally admitted that its translation into English was incorrect in 2001, as you remind me, which is 23 years after JPII became the pope. You mean to tell me that he forgot, or that maybe it wasn't important enough? Or maybe the translation was exactly as the NO Church wanted it (after all it was the NO Church that made it)? And, now, eight years later, it's still in the making.
After all, it's not like someone is pressed to come up with brand new translation. The correct transaltion has existed for centuries, so what's the holdup?
I never get a straight answer when it comes to Catholic issues. It's always something wiggly, as if the emperor indeed had any clothes type of a reply. Like that statement in the article about the "recent [sic] scholarship has reconized a need for a more full translation..." give me a break! Recent scholarship...what schoalrship was used to tranlsate "and with your spirit" into "and with you?" But the Church will never admit to being wrong. Errors are simply allowed to fade away...
Truth is, all these years the English-speaking Catholics have been reciting the Mass according to a faulty translation and differently from other Catholics in the world since 1970 and and no one saw anything alarmingly wrong with that until 2001!?
Sorry our Pope isn’t as dictatorial as you would like. He has to follow processes. The Missal was in the process of being updated. During this process the Pope issued Liturgiam authenticam.
We don’t do things willy-nilly. If you want a church that changes on a dime, look elsewhere.
Our missal has english and spanish on facing pages, and I have noticed that the spanish differs from the english. Is every spanish Mass in the US like that or are some spanish Masses just translations of the standard english translation? Are the translations different because the US bishops didn’t bother to make their own spanish translation and they use someone elses? Why would they do that?
Why is the Orthodox Church getting tangled up in politics? And what happened to praying for our enemies, or better yet, for the whole world, regardless of politics? I think that when Orthodox prelates begin to play politics they are no different than the mullahs who stoke fires every Friday in their mosques and use religion as a political platform.
As a former member and the co-founder of the reovlutionary Islamic Republic Party, an active participant in the anti-Shah, anti-America revoutionary movement in Iran (appointed member of the Revolutionary Council by Ayatolah Khomeini), and Iran's minister of foreign affairs and a prime minister, Mr. Mousavi was behind most anti-American (and anti-Israeli) policies since the Shah was deposed until 1989 and again when he served as the adviser to the "reformist" president Khatami in 1997.
When did he win our favor and became our friend? What's even more pathetic are all these sore loser Iranian ex-pats in the US (more like their grandchildren who don't even remember the revolution) who still wave the old Shah's flag, and who are now somehow "spiritually" united with Mousavi who "helped" them become ex-pats! What a crock!
They've been blabbing about it for years. Pope John Paul II wrote Liturgiam Authenticam in 2001.
I'm from Missuri.
I see. So this NO translation in English was a carefully and deliberately planted error or just a willy-nilly attempt at changing tradition? Seems like it took no time to change things after 1964, but it took almost 40 years to even recognize it. Way to go.
It was a misguided attempt to avoid clunky-sounding and stilted English. The folly was outed and is being corrected.
All in one lifetime, which is pretty speedy for the Church.
Sorry this displeases you.
I think so. We also have English/Spanish missals, but the text of the missal isn't always the same as what's being read from the Lectionary or Sacramentary. I think our missals use the version from Mexico and the liturgical books the lectors, deacon, and priest use come from Spain or South America.
One presumes that all of the Spanish-speaking countries have something like ICEL (International Committee for English in the Liturgy) which decides on Spanish texts, with Vatican approval.
If Missals are being printed with English and Spanish, one would hope they were using the proper texts for each language.
I don’t think you can really blame JPII. As you know, an entire generation of post-Vatican II liturgists were operating under a different translation paradigm of dynamic equivalence, basically allowing a paraphrase of the Latin that simplified and ommitted all sorts of “old fashioned” words like spirit, soul and grace. This generation was entrenched in the Church at many levels. Also, collegiality was the buzzword after the Council, so a lot was left to the bishops, who created the old ICEL and pushed this paradigm. However, JPII slowly but surely shifted the course of the ship of the Church against the entrenched liturgists. The Vatican under JP II repeatedly denied recognitio of the US bishops’ translations in the 1990s, particularly over inclusive language issues. Finally, the Vatican got so fed up with the texts that the bishops were sending them for approval, that the new instruction Liturgiam Authenticam requiring formal equivalence in translation was issued in 2001. The Vatican itself translated the Catechism into English to avoid the same type of problems as it had with the bishops’ translations of the liturgy. Concurrently, a lot of the old guard responsible for the bad post Vatican II translations are fading from the scene (although Bishop Trautman still seems able to wreak havoc as he did at the bishops’ meeting a few days ago). The translation issue relates to broader historical and generational forces at work. JPII and now BXVI are slowing trying to right the mess. Things move slowly in the Church, and that is not always a bad thing. The Post Vatican II liturgists moved much to fast in preparing and imposing the Novus Ordo, in my opinion. Any changes to the liturgy should be done slowly and deliberately. And there is an added benefit that the post Vatican II old guard will grow less powerful over time and therefore will be less in a position to sabotage the implementation of better translations.
Yeah, I don’t know if the priest is actually following the spanish in the missal or not, I have only been to bi-lingual english/spanish masses on certain Holy days not the regular spanish mass.
“If Missals are being printed with English and Spanish, one would hope they were using the proper texts for each language.”
So I take it “proper texts” can can actually be pretty different in different languages, as long as the Vatican OKs it?
The Met. is considered something of a right winger, with reason. I didn’t get the impression that his prayer was political, though and he certainly didn’t suggest that the USA do anything about the Iran situation. I know personally that he believes that the safety of The Church, to the extent there will ever be any, in places like Iran depends on the development of representative governments which respect the rights of minorities. It may be that his hopes for Iran are delusional but I don’t doubt the sincerity of the prayer or its non-political essence.
That's been the case with human language since Babel, no?
Then involve committees.
For instance, how does one translate a theological term like "consubstantial"? Do you leave it in the Latin and educate people what it means? Or do you try to translate it and end up with something impecise yet more readibly understandable?
You mean Bishop Trautperson, don’t you? ;-)
Well, I reckon they should ‘probly have the same strategy for every translation, no matter what strategy they pick. That might be closer to “being one” than having different aproaches to translation.
And I’m not sure it’s a translation problem as much as it is just making a change for whatever reason. “And also with you”/”And with your spirit” can be expressed in english and spanish but in my church I take it the english masses are one way and the spanish masses are the other. I think that’s a little strange, but maybe there is a good reason for it.
We’ve been regularly attending Spanish liturgy for about 18 months. It’s something of a trial for my husband, who doesn’t understand Spanish, but at least he gets to play the guitar!
Sometimes I don’t see how they got the Spanish version, as it’s very different from the Enlish, but if both are translations from Latin (more or less ...) that would explain it.
**If Missals are being printed with English and Spanish, one would hope they were using the proper texts for each language**
Unfortunately, that is just coming with the English, per tax-chick’s input! (Very different, aren’t they?)
Yes, many of the texts of the Mass, as well as Scripture readings, are significantly different in the Spanish and English versions. For example, in the opening dialogue of the Eucharistic prayer, the priest’s lines starting with “The Lord be with you,” are same, but the congregation’s responses vary considerably.
English “And also with you,” is Spanish, “And with your spirit.” “We have lifted them up the Lord” is the same. But the last response is “It is right to give him thanks and praise” in English, while in Spanish it’s “Es justo y necessario,” “It is just (correct) and necessary.” This is similar to what we said in the old-days Presbyterian church when I was growing up, “It is meet and right so to do.”
Texts of the Memorial Acclamation are also different.