Posted on 09/23/2009 5:18:33 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
“It’s the way of life, a culture.”
Alex, you of all people know Kosta is right! There is no need for the Latins to use the iconostasion, have beared priests or use prosphoron. The old High Mass was just fine. but Wiccan nuns and the NO liturgy just isn’t fine and we have no time or tolerance for them. They are not and cannot and never can be “Orthodox” or “orthodox” no matter what the theologians and hierarchs, yours and ours, say. We will indeed simply walk away from them. Love, Alex, is not the issue. As Kosta says, its Orthodoxy.
But then your answer to the hypothetical
— the West returns to the dogmatic perimeter of 8c.
— the West returns to authentically Latin form of worship
would not have been the one you already gave in 29, would it?
It's not hate, as in μισέω, but rather a sense of alienation, something unnatural, forced. It's like going to the UK and recognizing it's the same language but the lifestyle, attitudes, and overall culture is not the same.
In fact, on a closer look, nothing is the same, which is bewildering because it seems that it should be! The language is mostly the same, but has a strange accent; the words sound the same but means something different or are spelled differently; the Church "looks" Catholic but isn't; the head of the Church is also the head of state, who is also a monarch, and who reigns but doesn't govern; someone equivalent to the Speaker of the House runs the government and is called the Prime Minister; there are dozens of political parties instead of two; there is no written Constitution; 40%of the population is either agnostic or atheist, etc.
Do you really think Americans and the English could reunite based on the fact that once they were one and the same nation, that they use the same written language, that they both teach the same pirnciples, or that they share so many other things in common? The English are not Americans, because one cannot reduce our differences to one or two elements.
We could erase history, annul the American Revolution; even agree to a Constitutional Monarchy (without a Constitution!), we could change our names to "fifty colonies," and change our flag to the Union Jack—none of that would makes us English! It would be a faux union.
Likewise, we can scrap out anathemas (they were dropped in 1964, after 910 years), we can shred our doctrinal statements; we can all call ourselves Catholic once again, but by such superficial measures neither will the Latins become Orthodox nor will that name change make the Orthodox Catholics.
Such a (re)union would be a lie, Alex. That's all. It has nothing to do with any lack of love.
“But then your answer to the hypothetical
— the West returns to the dogmatic perimeter of 8c.
— the West returns to authentically Latin form of worship
would not have been the one you already gave in 29, would it?”
As far as I can see my answer remains the same. Perhaps I am missing something or you are seeing something which isn’t there.
Yes. I never said the Orthodox hate the Catholics. For the second time, you express my understading of the Orthodox feelings on the matter better than I could on this thread. The sense of alienation is a lack of love.
Consider two people courting each other. They may have a fear of premature physical union, -- because they are tempted to it. They also may have a fear of a mistake: perhaps the infatuation is blinding me to some cardinal flaw! -- one thinks. But they want to be together: they never feel alienated.
The analogy of two kindred yet separate nations is a good example, but there is one difference: nations exist to serve themselves, whereas Churches exist to serve one God. Do you think a Catholic never feels in a foreign place in Orthodox Liturgy? I can assure you he does; he wouldn't want the busy beauty of it, he would miss the austerity and the silence of the Mass. Likewise, a man in love does not want to become his female bride, nor does the bride want to become her male groom. She would not want the male form; he would not want the female form. But they want to be one; not same, but one.
Some higher purpose yet may bring the United States and Britain under one government. It would not mean the British should cease to be British and the Americans should cease to be Americans.
It is exactly what I say it is, unlove, and because of it you (I speak collectively) do not understand the subject matter.
No, alienation simply means just what it means—something one cannot identify with, something one does not recognize as his/her own.
The analogy of two kindred yet separate nations is a good example, but there is one difference: nations exist to serve themselves, whereas Churches exist to serve one God
Churches claim they serve God whether they are in communion or not. Besides, what does that mean "to serve God?"
You have decided that it's all the Orthodox fault. But I will tell you something, you can't make someone love you. And by the same token just because someone loves you doesn't mean you are obligated to love them.
You have managed to turn the Orthodox attitude towards the West as something materialistic and faddish and ocunter-traditional into a damnable lack of love for the West, so as to paint the East as some loveless villain whose fault it is that we can't hold hands.
Your twisted mind only confirms Orthodox suspicions and doubts. It's like some stalker who sees himself as a "victim" because the person he is infatuated with is refusing his advances.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
My apologies. Wrong choice of words on my part. Alex I don't think your mind is twisted. Please forgive me for slipping. Your conclusions left me baffled.
Don’t worry about it.
I’ll have a substantive response later — busy at work these days. In a hurry: of course the lack of union is also, and perhaps in greater part, a Catholic fault.
***You have decided that it’s all the Orthodox fault. But I will tell you something, you can’t make someone love you. And by the same token just because someone loves you doesn’t mean you are obligated to love them.***
A step back and another look at what we are instructed to do with our friends and enemies might be worth while.
Matthew 5:
22
17 But I say to you, whoever is angry 18 with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.
23
Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you,
24
leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
If we cannot be reconciled with our dearest of brethren, flesh of our spiritual flesh, then how do we handle the heathen, heretic, and apostate:
43
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44
But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,
45
that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
46
For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors 28 do the same?
47
And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? 29
48
So be perfect, 30 just as your heavenly Father is perfect.
If we cannot handle minor differences which whet our pride and our haughtiness, then the harpies of Podarge will descend upon us here on FR and we will deserve it.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.