They See Dead People?

Mormonism Research Ministry ^ | Bill McKeever

[Elsie]

Well golly since your translation says so I’ll alert all the other denominations.

So; are you alerted?

Be alert; for world needs MORE lerts!

[Elsie]

Mormons are incorrect.

They ARE?

Who knew!

[CynicalBear]

LOL Had to get your attention some how!

[greyfoxx39]

If the spirits of the dead came to Jesus, and He spoke with them, it cannot be wrong.

Gee, Logo...don't mormons believe their Jesus MAY just kinda, sorta be a wee bit "speshul"? Like, maybe he had a few powers that set Him above the reg'lar run of the mill mormon elder?

Mormon leaders from Joseph Smith on down have claimed to be visited by various "dead people", the Founding Fathers coming to mind. Is that the concept then....what's good for Jesus cannot be wrong for just any old mortal man?

On further thought, the way Joseph Smith has been idolized would certainly lead to that perception.

"Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah..."

[Colofornian]

Who has special "training" in this kind of discernment? I do!! < Shake their hand and feel for BONES!!!

ALL: Actually, that's Joseph Smith's advice. Is that you can "test" the nature of a spirit by the handshake ... oh, and by the color of his hair!!!

Smith claimed (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 214-215) to be able to "distinguish" between a "good" angel and a "bad" with this "spiritually offered" discernment: "By the color of his hair; that is one of the signs that he can be known by..."

(It's a "good thing" to know that a demon can't deceive a Mormon thru dying his hair or something like that)

And then, as Elsie said, the handshake.

Lds author Duane Crowther said: "These are the spirits for whom the handshake test of Doctrine and Covenants, section 129, applies." (Life Everlasting, Bookcraft, 1988, p. 247)

And what does this Mormon "scripture" say about shaking hands to discern spirits?

D&C 129:1-9:
1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—...
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.

8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.
9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

Bottom-line, Smith had ZERO discernment on how to tell the difference between a demon masquerading as a ghost (Moroni), and a true angel.

[Colofornian]

Who has special "training" in this kind of discernment? I do!! < Shake their hand and feel for BONES!!! [Elsie] In short, my original statement still stands: Mormons do not practice necromancy. We do not "summon up" the dead for any purpose. [Logophile, post #33]

Fact is that Mormons have openly welcomed communication from the spirits and the supposed dead. And they think because they have been given a "priesthood," that they cannot be deceived.

John Weldon and John Ankerberg, in their book, The Facts on the Mormon Church by Harvest House, 1991/2009, pp. 69-70, noted:

A sermon delivered by Elder Parley Pratt in 1853 (five years after the celebrated spiritist movement began in America) indicates early Mormon acceptance of Joseph Smith as a 'divine' medium. Jesus Christ was given the role of a spiritistic mediator, and spiritism was to be practiced in the Mormon temple. Pratt gloried in Joseph Smith's role in receiving the Book of Mormon from a spirit:

Ankerberg and Weldon quoted Parley P. Pratt, the great-great grandfather of Mitt Romney: Who communicated with our great modern Prophet, and revealed through him as a medium, the ancient history of the hemisphere, and the records of the ancient dead? Moroni, who had lived 1400 years before...Who instructed him in the mysteries of the kingdom?...Angels and spirits from the eternal worlds...conversations and correspondence with...spirits, shall be had only in the sanctuary of His holy temple on the earth...One of the leading or fundamental truths of Mormon philosophy [is] that the living may hear from the dead.

Pratt said it was "such an important blessing as to hear from the dead. And how shall we discriminate between those who seek to Him, and those who seek the same by unlawful means." (JoD, 2:45-46, April 6, 1853) [Note: unlawful means...Pratt id'd mediums...] "...the Lord has appointed a Holy Priesthood on the earth...and has committed to this Priesthood the keys of holy and divine revelation, and of correspondence, or communication between angels, spirits, and men..." (Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses 2:45-46, April 6, 1853)

There ya go, Logo. Pratt called Smith a "medium." He said it's a fundamental "truth of Mormonism" that the living hear from the dead, and how it's an "important blessing" to hear from the dead. Pratt said these manifestations from the dead were to be in hauntings at the Mormon temples.

Was this teaching peculiar among Lds "apostles" only to Pratt? Not at all. Consider Lds "apostle" Charles W. Penrose, 1888:

"Knowledge that is needful concerning the spiritual sphere will come through an appointed channel and in the appointed place. The temple where the ordinances can be administered for the dead, is the place to hear from the dead. The Priesthood in the flesh, when it is necessary, will receive communications from the priesthood behind the veil." Lds apostle Charles W. Penrose, Mormon Doctrine, 1888, published through the Juvenile Instructor's office, SLC, pp. 40-41

There ya go. Pratt talked about Smith as a "medium"; and Penrose said channeling from the dead would take place at the appointed place (temple).

[reaganaut]

Where were you when I was single, again? LOL.

BTW, I always get a high score on the surviving the zombie apocalypse quizzes.

[greyfoxx39]

Since Sheol means "the grave" or "realm of the dead" (and is so translated in the NIV), I would say that every human who dies will go down to Sheol. (That includes almost all of us.)Thankfully, because of Jesus Christ, all will come out of the grave again.

Ohh...just who among us will be exempt from "going down to Sheol"? This, perhaps?

To have one's calling and election made sure is to be sealed up unto eternal life; it is to have the unconditional guarantee of exaltation in the highest heaven of the celestial world; it is to receive the assurance of godhood; it is, in effect, to have the day of judgment advanced, so that an inheritance of all the glory and honor of the Father's kingdom is assured prior to the day when the faithful actually enter into the divine presence to sit with Christ in his throne, even as he is "set down" with his "Father in his throne." (Rev 3:21.)

 

BYU

[Logophile]

Gee, Logo...don't mormons believe their Jesus MAY just kinda, sorta be a wee bit "speshul"? Like, maybe he had a few powers that set Him above the reg'lar run of the mill mormon elder?

Of course Jesus has all power.

However, I did not refer to His power, but rather to His conduct. Jesus lived a perfect life; He is our exemplar. If we are to go where He is, we must take up our cross daily, and follow Him.

So, if Jesus thought it was acceptable to converse with righteous men who have passed on, I think it is probably permissible for us to do so.

I do not seek such conversations; I have never had one. But if God were to send me a messenger, I would pay heed to what he had to say to me.

[Logophile]

Ohh...just who among us will be exempt from "going down to Sheol"? This, perhaps?

CynicalBear mentioned one: Elijah was taken directly into heaven. (See 2 Kings 2:11). I believe a few others have been taken up without tasting death; the rest of us will die.

[Just mythoughts]

Are their dead still voting? Are their dead still getting government handouts?

[Hot Tabasco]

Well....that's what I heard.

Funny you should post that, I'm not even going to get into what I heard about Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, Protestants, Methodists......etc.......all creepy stuff.

[Godzilla]

If we are to go where He is, we must take up our cross daily, and follow Him.

Really, first time I've ever seen a mormon wanting to have anything to do with the cross.

[Logophile]

In post #8 you gave a Webster definition of Necromancy.

Yes, a dictionary is a good source for the definitions of words. Too bad the author did not quote from a good dictionary.

Your rambling posts give me no reason to revise my previous statement: Mormons do not practice necromancy. We do not "summon up" the dead for any purpose.

Since we cannot seem to agree on such a simple point, there is little reason to continue this conversation. Good night.

[Elsie]

"Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah..."

Let's all SING!!

---

 

 

 

 

Praise to the Man!

 

 

Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

 

 

Praise to his mem'ry, he died as a martyr;
Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assasins,
Plead unto heav'n while the earth lauds his fame.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

 

Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

 

Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know 'Brother Joseph' again.

 

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

[Elsie]

But if God were to send me a messenger, I would pay heed to what he had to say to me.

And if SATAN sent you one...

[Elsie]

We do not "summon up" the dead for any purpose.

Then HOW do they find out that the MORMONs have done such a special work for them in the baptistry?

[The Comedian]

Yeah girl!

My daughter sent me a link to one, something like your chances of surviving against 100 zombies.

I was like, 100?

Wake me up when a *real* horde shows up.

Frowning takes 68 muscles.
Smiling takes 6.
Pulling this trigger takes 2.
I'm lazy.

[Colofornian]

Yes, a dictionary is a good source for the definitions of words. Too bad the author did not quote from a good dictionary.

BTW, if you go to this thread,The "Familiar Spirit" in 2 Nephi 26:16 you'll find linkages of "familiar spirits" to:
* The Book of Mormon (2 Nephi 26:16)
* The Bible, which 100% of the time links "familiar spirits" and its underlying Hebrew word with mediums and witchcraft.
* An 1833 Rochester newspaper article which links the "Mormonites" with "familiar spirits"
* And this interesting 1828 Noah Webster's An American Dictionary of the English Language entry for "familiar spirit" that was included as part of an editor's note:

Note (by Rich Troll): The 2nd definition of familiar in Noah Webster's An American Dictionary of the English Language (1828) is given as a noun: "A demon or evil spirit supposed to attend at a call. But in a general way we say, a familiar spirit." (emphasis in original) This term was associated with necromancy and had mostly negative connotations. It is significant to observe Abner Cole reinforces his connection of familiar spirits with Mormonism, with the first example being in "The Book Of Pukei," as found in the June 12th 1830 edition of The Reflector.
Source: editor's note at Fortune Telling found at end of Jan. 12, 1833 Rochester,NY newspaper article

So, Logo, the entire context I am using includes how "familiar spirits" have been so closely linked to mediums and witchcraft, and are part of the Book of Mormon and early reputation of Joseph Smith and Mormons. (Surely Smith knew the 1828 definition of "familiar spirit" per Noah Webster? And yet, he still used it?)

I think this perhaps was more of God's insistence that a bit of "Truth in Advertising" clause needed some insertion somewhere in this counterfeit document called "The Book of Mormon."

[Zuriel]

The entire theme of Chapter 15 is the resurrection. If Christ did not rise from the dead, then all those souls that were baptized into the body of Christ, and had passed on, were not going to rise either.

So why are they (whosoever will) baptized into Christ’s dead body if there is no resurrection.

That is how 1 Cor. 15:29 harmonizes with the rest of the chapter, as well as with the scripturally recorded events of baptism, where only the living were baptized for their own salvation. It’s not a stand by itself verse saying some new doctrine.

Also notice that verse 30 starts with ‘And’, indicating the continued thought flow from verse 29:
“And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?”

Paul (whom had already been baptized years earlier) says ‘they’ in vs 29 because he’s writing to the saints in Corinth, who have already been baptized; so, ‘we’ does not apply in that context, but does in vs 30.