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Why I Am Catholic: For Purgatory, Thank Heavens (Ecumenical)
WhyIAmCatholic.bloogspot.com ^ | November 2010 | Frank Weathers

Posted on 11/21/2010 5:37:58 PM PST by Salvation

For Purgatory, Thank Heavens

—Feast of All Souls
When I was straddling the fence on whether or not I should become a Catholic, I never had a problem with Purgatory. It just makes the most sense to me.

I'll admit that I thought I would have a big problem with it at first. Because, you see, it isn't mentioned specifically in the Bible (along with about a million other details). But where did all the people who died go, for example from the Old Testament times? Assuming that all the people who had died before the Incarnation were just, ahem—out of luck, is ridiculous to me. And that was before I knew the doctrine of purgatory very well.

I just ran a quick search over at the handy-dandy YIMCatholic Bookshelf of the word "purgatory" and came back with references to 175 different books. You'll find everything from St. Catherine of Genoa's Treatise on Purgatory (only 67 pages, so give it a look) to the Manual of the Purgatorian Society.

Below are some thoughts I want to share with you from an American named John L. Stoddard. Back in 1922, Stoddard wrote Rebuilding A Lost Faith, By An American Agnostic. It's 246 pages of top-notch conversion story.  But I'm only going to share Stoddard's thoughts on Purgatory with you because in many ways, they mirror my own path to understanding this doctrine. Like Stoddard, the crux of the matter for me hinges on authority. Either you believe that, heads, the Church has the authority to teach this doctrine or, tails (like Martin Luther), you don't. Guess which side of this coin I side with?

I'll let Stoddard take it from here,

From Chapter XV, Purgatory and Indulgences

THE difficulty in regard to Papal Infallibility (See chapter XIV) having been overcome, I turned to consider the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and the Sacrament of Penance. My feelings in respect to this will best be shown by the following extract from a letter which I wrote about this time to a Catholic friend.

"My Dear Francis:

"I find no special difficulty in the Catholic dogma of Purgatory. On the contrary, the idea of a state of purification, appointed Jor those souls who, though redeemed by Christ, are nevertheless still unprepared to pass at once into God's presence, appears to me logical and even comforting. I think that every soul who feels his own unfitness for the Beatific Vision (and who does not feel this?) must wish for such a state of preparation, even though attended with a cleansing punishment. The lack of this idea in Protestantism leads, I think, to an objectionable feature in their system,—namely, the altogether improbable and presumptuous supposition that the soul of some monster of depravity can straightway enter the society of heaven, provided only that he says, at the last moment of his ill-spent life, that he repents and believes in Jesus as the Son of God. Christ's Divine insight into the soul of the penitent thief, who hung beside His cross on Calvary, could justify, of course, His promise to him of an immediate entrance into Paradise; but that was a solitary instance, upon which one can hardly build much hope.

The statement, often loosely made, that, since 'Jesus paid it all, all the debt I owe,' a hardened criminal is thereby rendered instantaneously fit for Heaven, is dangerously demoralising. The Bible assures us that 'there shall in no wise enter into the heavenly City of God anything that defileth, or that is defiled,' and the acquisition of a pure character is not the affair of a moment by means of a death-bed repentance. I never shall forget the description in a Chicago paper, many years ago, of the hanging of a negro, who, on the night before his execution, was said to have repented of a peculiarly atrocious crime, and 'knew that he was saved.' The report was heralded by the flaring headline 'Jerked to Jesus!'

This blasphemous alliteration probably did less harm, however, than the sensational story, which accompanied it, of the negro's 'edifying remarks' which preceded his death. The idea of such a wretch going at once to Heaven was revolting to a sense of justice and even of decency. No Catholic would have supposed such a translation probable, or, save for a miracle, possible. We know, of course, nothing of what the purgatorial state may be, through which the soul must pass, to reach the sphere to which God calls it; but that some place of purification must exist for those who pass into eternity with no sufficient spiritual preparation, appears to me just, necessary and consoling."

To this my friend replied as follows:—

I well remember the crudely blasphemous headline which you quote. It had a great success, and was accounted 'clever,' though I am sure its ribald, vulgar character shocked all in whom a consciousness of the dignity of life and of the majesty of death remained, even though they had no positive Christian faith. There is little, if any, analogy between the case of the wretched negro and that of the penitent thief, for the latter was redeemed by his humility and faith. He did not 'know that he was saved.' He confessed his guilt in a supreme moment, and admitted the justice of his punishment. Whether or not the grace given him by our Lord was the only one ever offered him, we are not told; but to this opportunity at least he did respond, and by a single aspiration expiated with his dying breath a life of crime.

That the consoling doctrine of Purgatory should appeal to you does not surprise me. There is hardly a religious system of antiquity in which some similar provision is not found. It was left for the 'Reformers' of the sixteenth century to reject this immemorial dogma of the Church. When they denied the sanctity of the Mass and many other sacramental features of Catholicism, the doctrine of Purgatory went with the rest. If the souls of the dead pass instantly into an eternally fixed state, beyond the efficacy of our intercessions, then all our requiems, prayers and similar practices are vain. But if, on the contrary, we believe in the Communion of Saints,—that is, in the intercommunion of the three-fold Church,—militant on earth, suffering in Purgatory, and triumphant in Heaven,—then we on earth can influence, and be influenced by, the souls who have crossed the border.

Few, indeed, quit this life in a state of purity and grace which warrants their immediate entrance into Heaven. Still fewer, let us hope, are those to whom the blessed refuge of Purgatory,— that half-way house of our dead,— is closed. I cannot conceive how Protestants can believe as they do on this point, nor is it astonishing that their rejection of Purgatory has been followed, in the case of many, by the elimination of a belief in Hell; for the latter doctrine, taken alone, is monstrous. In fact, all Catholic doctrines are interdependent; they stand or fall together. You cannot pick stones out of the arch, and expect it to stand, for it will not do so. Purgatory is one of the most humane and beautiful conceptions imaginable. How many mothers' aching hearts has it not soothed and comforted with hope for some dead, wayward son!


Soon after receiving this letter, I read the following words from Mallock:—"As to the doctrine of Purgatory, time goes on, and the view men take of it is changing. It is fast becoming recognised, that it is the only doctrine that can bring a belief in future rewards and punishments into anything like accordance with our notions of what is just and reasonable; and so far from its being a superfluous superstition, it will be seen to be just what is demanded at once by reason and morality." My attention was at this time also called to the fact that the idea of Purgatory is no longer confined exclusively to Roman Catholic Christians. At a recent General Convention of Episcopalians in America resolutions looking towards prayer for the dead were defeated by only a very small majority.

The doctrine of the Catholic Church in reference to Purgatory states that there is such a place, in which souls suffer for a time, before they can be admitted to the joys of Heaven, because they still need to be cleansed from certain venial sins, infirmities and faults, or still have to discharge the temporal punishment due to mortal sins, which is as yet uncancelled, though the lasting punishment of those sins has been forgiven and removed through Christ's atonement. Furthermore, the Church declares, that by our prayers and by the acceptable sacrifice of the Mass we may still help those souls, through the merits of Christ.

Beyond this statement the Church's formal doctrine does not go; but it is not an article of Catholic faith that there is in Purgatory any material fire. It is generally believed that souls in Purgatory suffer spiritual anguish from the fact that they then feel acutely, as they could not do on earth, the perfect happiness from which they are for a time excluded, while they must also understand the enormity of the sins which they committed against their Heavenly Father and their Savior.

The entire story is here.

*****

What follows now are a few thoughts from Saint, and Doctor of the Church, Alphonsus Liguori, on our duty to pray for the faithful departed souls in Purgatory. This is from the Introduction to the Manual of the Purgatorian Society. With a book title like that, it's got to be good!

The practice of recommending to God the souls in Purgatory, that He may mitigate the great pains which they suffer, and that He may soon bring them to His glory, is most pleasing to the Lord and most profitable to us. For these blessed souls are His eternal spouses, and most grateful are they to those who obtain their deliverance from prison, or even a mitigation of their torments. When, therefore, they arrive in Heaven, they will be sure to remember all who have prayed for them. It is a pious belief that God manifests to them our prayers in their behalf, that they may also pray for us.

It is true these blessed souls are not in a state to pray for themselves, because they are so to speak, criminals atoning for their faults. However, because they are very dear to God, they can pray for us, and obtain for us, the divine graces. St. Catherine of Bologna, when she wished to obtain any grace, had recourse to the souls in Purgatory, and her prayers were heard immediately. She declared that, by praying to those holy souls she obtained many favors which she had sought through the intercession of the saints without obtaining them. The graces which devout persons are said to have received through the holy souls are innumerable.

But, if we wish for the aid of their prayers, it is just, it is even a duty, to relieve them by our suffrages. I say it is even a duty; for Christian charity commands us to relieve our neighbors who stand in need of our assistance. But who among all our neighbors have so great need of our help as those holy prisoners? They are continually in that fire which torments more severely than any earthly fire. They are deprived of the sight of God, a torment far more excruciating than all other pains.

Let us reflect that among these suffering souls are parents, or brothers, or relatives and friends, who look to us for succor. Let us remember, moreover, that being in the condition of debtors for their sins, they cannot assist themselves. This thought should urge us forward to relieve them to the best of our ability. By assisting them we shall not only give great pleasure to God, but will acquire also great merit for ourselves.

And, in return for our suffrages, these blessed souls will not neglect to obtain for us many graces from God, but particularly the grace of eternal life. I hold for certain that a soul delivered from Purgatory by the suffrages of a Christian, when she enters paradise, will not fail to say to God: "Lord, do not suffer to be lost that person who has liberated me from the prison of Purgatory, and has brought me to the enjoyment of Thy glory sooner than I have deserved.


For all the answers on Purgatory (and on Indulgences) that you want to know, but are afraid to ask, click on the hotlinks you just passed over. You'll be glad you did.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: allsouls; catholic; catholiclist; purgatory
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The end of November is fast approaching and I wanted to get this posted.

Please follow the Religion Moderator's Guidelines for Ecumenical Threads

1 posted on 11/21/2010 5:38:07 PM PST by Salvation
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To: Salvation; PadreL; Morpheus2009; saveliberty; fabrizio; Civitas2010; Radagast the Fool; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

2 posted on 11/21/2010 5:40:11 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: All
Why I Am Catholic: For Purgatory, Thank Heavens (Ecumenical)
(Why Am I Catholic?) For Peace While Suffering (A Few Words for Wednesday)
(why am I Catholic?) Because I Awoke from a Long, Bad Dream
Why I Am Catholic: For All the Saints: Bernard of Clairvaux
3 posted on 11/21/2010 5:41:22 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; markomalley; ...
Catholic Discussion Ping!

If you aren’t on this ping list NOW and would like to be on it, please Freepmail me.

4 posted on 11/21/2010 5:49:15 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Purgatory - One of the many, many reasons I could no longer remain a Catholic. As you said, it - and a thousand other Catholic teachings - are not in the Bible nor in any of it’s early history.

And I grew up as an altar boy learning the Mass in Latin. But after 20 years of learning, left for a Bible based church. And I won’t even get started on the history of the Catholic Church...


5 posted on 11/21/2010 5:56:50 PM PST by txzman (Jer 23:29)
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To: txzman

And I could show you 5, 10 maybe more Protestant churches that claim to be “based on biblical teaching only” that all have different beliefs and interpretations!

And when you talk of the history of the church, to me what you speak of is the history of the people of the church, who are not with out sin, not of the Catholic church itself. People in other churches are only human as well. The Catholic church has a much longer history then other Christian churches, and existed in different times with different standards of behavior. I bet if you showed church goers of just 100 years ago what
ALL of our places of worship find acceptable today, they’d be mortified!


6 posted on 11/21/2010 6:17:17 PM PST by MacMattico
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To: Salvation

My 3 year old & I remember all the poor souls of purgatory in our nightly prayers. Clearly, I should be doing more for them. Thank you for this.


7 posted on 11/21/2010 6:21:03 PM PST by surroundedbyblue
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To: txzman

When you are baptized a Catholic you remain a Catholic. You can always come back to the church. Sit down with a priest and get answers to your questions about Purgatory.

BTW, Trinity is not in the Bible either, but we all believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

There are many references to Purgatory from the Old Testament throughout the New Testament.


8 posted on 11/21/2010 6:24:54 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: txzman; Religion Moderator

Please remember this is an Ecumenical thread — no antagonism or your post will be deleted by the Religion Moderator.


9 posted on 11/21/2010 6:26:13 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: surroundedbyblue

Thanks for your post.


10 posted on 11/21/2010 6:27:07 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: MacMattico

** if you showed church goers of just 100 years ago what
ALL of our places of worship find acceptable today, they’d be mortified!**

If not mortified, severely stunned and puzzled by some of the practices therein.


11 posted on 11/21/2010 6:28:33 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Few, indeed, quit this life in a state of purity and grace which warrants their immediate entrance into Heaven. Still fewer, let us hope, are those to whom the blessed refuge of Purgatory,— that half-way house of our dead,— is closed. I cannot conceive how Protestants can believe as they do on this point, nor is it astonishing that their rejection of Purgatory has been followed, in the case of many, by the elimination of a belief in Hell; for the latter doctrine, taken alone, is monstrous. In fact, all Catholic doctrines are interdependent; they stand or fall together. You cannot pick stones out of the arch, and expect it to stand, for it will not do so. Purgatory is one of the most humane and beautiful conceptions imaginable. How many mothers' aching hearts has it not soothed and comforted with hope for some dead, wayward son!

For some people, Jesus just didn't suffer enough on the cross. You can't make everybody happy, I guess.

12 posted on 11/21/2010 6:34:41 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: Salvation

Jesus statement to the thief was that he would be in paradise that day. Ill take jesus word over some theory made up by men regarding purgatory. Sorry.


13 posted on 11/21/2010 6:39:59 PM PST by plain talk
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To: Salvation

“it isn’t mentioned specifically in the Bible”

It isn’t mentioned at all. You could have stopped right there.


14 posted on 11/21/2010 6:45:13 PM PST by sigzero
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To: Salvation; All
But where did all the people who died go, for example from the Old Testament times? Assuming that all the people who had died before the Incarnation were just, ahem—out of luck

In all due respect, it is clearly evident from the Bible that all the Old Testament people who died went to Sheol.

A synonym of Sheol is "bor" (pit), "abaddon" and "shaḥat" (pit or destruction), and perhaps also of "tehom" (abyss).

There is ample Bible evidence for Sheol and where the Old Testament people who died went:

Jacob, refusing to be comforted at the supposed death of Joseph, exclaims: "I shall go down to my son a mourner unto Sheol" (Gen. xxxvii. 36)

Sheol is underneath the earth (Isa. vii. 11, lvii. 9; Ezek. xxxi. 14; Ps. lxxxvi. 13

Sheol is very deep (Prov. ix. 18; Isa. lvii. 9); and it marks the point at the greatest possible distance from heaven (Job xi. 8; Amos ix. 2; Ps. cxxxix. 8). The dead descend or are made to go down into it; the revived ascend or are brought and lifted up from it (I Sam. ii. 6; Job vii. 9; Ps. xxx. 4; Isa. xiv. 11, 15).

Sometimes the living are hurled into Sheol before they would naturally have been claimed by it (Prov. i. 12; Num. xvi. 33; Ps. lv. 16, lxiii. 10), in which cases the earth is described as "opening her mouth" (Num. xvi. 30).

Sheol is spoken of as a land (Job x. 21, 22); but ordinarily it is a place with gates (ib. xvii. 16, xxxviii. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 10; Ps. ix. 14), and seems to have been viewed as divided into compartments (Prov. vii. 27).

This realm of the dead (Sheol) is in the earth (comp. Job, x. 21, 22), the gateway being in the west [notice it has direction]. It is the "land without return." It is a dark place filled with dust (not fire); but it contains a palace for the divine ruler of this shadow-realm (comp. Job xviii. 13, 14). Seven gates guard successively the approach to this land, at the first of which is a watchman. A stream of water flows through Sheol (comp. Enoch, xvii. 6, xxii. 9; Luke xvi. 24; Ps. xviii. 5; II Sam. xxii. 5). Maybe you can inquire from a Jewish Rabbi as to where Sheol is located and where its environment is like (i.e., no fire, but dust, dark, beneath the earth, etc).

15 posted on 11/21/2010 7:11:49 PM PST by bibletruth
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To: plain talk

The Good Thief made a Perfect Act of Contrition.


16 posted on 11/21/2010 7:20:26 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Why do you bother? Stick with the caucus threads. If Christ himself returned and declared the Catholic Church his one true Church, there are bigots here who would nail him back on the cross in their hatred of all things Catholic.

I understand you wanting to minister to those lost to Christ, but how many times do you turn your cheek to have the same people strike you on the other? If someone wants to learn they will read and ask questions on the caucus threads. Those that hate will only couch their bigotry just enough to avoid getting zotted.

17 posted on 11/21/2010 7:20:36 PM PST by IrishCatholic (No local Communist or Socialist Party Chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing!)
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To: bibletruth; All
OK, everyone, read up on Purgatory. Did you know that Luther believed in Purgatory?

Please remember this is an Ecumenical Thread --- no antagonism and arguing. If you want to prove your points about Purgatory 00 please post them on another thread.

The Month of November: Thoughts on the "Last Things"
To Trace All Souls Day (Protestants vs Catholics)
Radio Replies First Volume - Purgatory
The Doctrine of Purgatory [Ecumenical]
The Heroic Act [Catholic-Orthodox Caucus] (Offering everything for the Souls in Purgatory)
MONTLIGEON MIRACLE: HOW PRIEST TURNED INTO 'TRAVELING SALESMAN' OF PURGATORY

IN BRUSH WITH DEATH, PRIEST SHOWN HELL, PURGATORY, DEGREES OF SUFFERING
Praying for the Dead [All Souls Day] (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
Purgatory: Service Shop for Heaven [Ecumernical]
Beginning Catholic: Catholic Purgatory: What Does It Mean? [Ecumenical]
OF GUARDIAN ANGELS AND THE ROLE THEY PLAY NOT JUST ON EARTH BUT IN PURGATORY [Catholic Caucus]
IN ANNALS OF SAINTS IS CONVERT'S STRIKING DEDICATION TO THOSE SOULS IN PURGATORY [Catholic Caucus]
Explaining Purgatory from a New Testament Perspective [Ecumenical]
PURIFYING THE SOUL ON EARTH IS WORTH 100X WHAT IT TAKES AFTER [Catholic Caucus] What Happens After Death?
Purgatory
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 12: Purgatory

The Doctrine of Purgatory
The Early Church Fathers on Purgatory - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Required for entrance to Purgatory? Personal question for Cathloic Freepers.
(Protestant) Minister Who Had Near-Death Episode Believes In Purgatory
Straight Answers: What Is Purgatory Like?
Do Catholics Believe in Purgatory?
Purgatory, Indulgences, and the Work of Jesus Christ (Discussion)
Prayer to Release the Souls of Purgatory
The Forgotten Souls in Purgatory
Praying for the dead [Purgatory]

18 posted on 11/21/2010 7:24:17 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Alex Murphy

Enough for what? Those being purged are saved by what Jesusbdid and purged by His mercy.


19 posted on 11/21/2010 7:42:05 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: IrishCatholic

I think you are right. Because other people were quoted in the original article, however, it needed to be ecumenical.


20 posted on 11/21/2010 7:42:51 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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