The Rapture Part 1 (Dispensational Caucus)

BibleProphecyBlog.com ^ | February 16, 2012 | Dr. Andy Woods

[GiovannaNicoletta]

I remain astonished at the number of emails I receive from individuals who do not believe that the rapture is a biblical doctrine. Such people seem to have the idea that the whole rapture concept is manufactured by popular, sensationalistic prophecy teachers in their attempt to sell books and make money. Thus, they contend that this rapture doctrine has no biblical justification whatsoever. In order to demonstrate the rapture is truly a biblical doctrine, I am commencing a series of articles on the "Doctrine of the Rapture of the Church."

This series will have two major parts. First, we will focus on the "what?" question as we ask ourselves, "What is the rapture?" The two major passages we will use to answer this question will be 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-58. Second, we will focus on the "when?" question as we ask ourselves, "When is the rapture?" By "when?" we have no intention of assigning a date for the rapture. Such an effort would be fruitless since the Scripture fails to assign a specific date for this event. Rather, by "when?" we simply will try to answer the question "When will the rapture take place relative to the impending seven-year tribulation period?"

What Is the Rapture? In order to answer this question, ten truths about this important event will be discussed. The first four truths come directly from 1 Thess. 4:13-18. These verses say:

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The Rapture Is an Important Doctrine

First, the rapture is an important doctrine. Many give the impression that the rapture is some kind of secondary doctrine that need not be given too much attention. We are often told that we should focus on the "big ticket" theological items such as the Virgin Birth, the Vicarious Atonement, the Trinity, Salvation by Faith Alone, and the Deity of Christ. Only after these doctrines are mastered should we then consider or contemplate the doctrine of the rapture. Along these same lines, many contend that the rapture is certainly not something that a new believer should give too much time or attention to.

Such thinking was foreign to the mindset of the Apostle Paul. Interestingly, the Thessalonians were new believers (1 Thess. 1:9). In fact, a very short period of time exists between Paul's planting of the Thessalonian church on his second missionary and his writing of the two epistles to them. There were no more than six months to a year between these two events. Thus, the Thessalonian epistles differ from Paul's letter to the Philippians where a little over ten years had elapsed between Paul's planting of the church at Philippi, on his second missionary journey, and when Paul finally wrote to that church during his first Roman imprisonment. The point in all of this is that although the Thessalonians were new believers, Paul never hid the doctrine of the rapture from them. On the contrary, he openly disclosed this teaching to them along with many other doctrines.

In his letter to the Thessalonians, before more fully developing the doctrine of the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul briefly mentioned this doctrine in 1 Thessalonians 1:10. Paul obviously believed that the rapture is a foundational doctrine because he mentioned it immediately after discussing other basic doctrines such as the Holy Spirit (1:5) and conversion (1:5, 9). He also mentions the rapture doctrine (4:13-18) just after and before discussing other basic Christian truths such as sanctification (4:3, 5:23) and the dimensions of man's nature (5:23). Evidently, in Paul's thinking, the rapture was just as important as these other truths and deserved the same level of treatment and understanding.

[wmfights]

By accepting the underlying methods of spinning out a false tale, as in this excerpt's misuse of the Holy Scripture, its thought process falls into the same line as that of the unregenerate Patristics, like Clement and Origen.

WELL SAID!

They led a great many (not all) seekers away from the core common-sense interpretation which Christ and His Apostles modeled, into a methodology based on nonsensical explanations that produced a religion of their liking.

Exactly right.

It's often said that premillenialism is a recent phenomenon, but it only appears that way to those that haven't had the opportunity to study our early Christian history. Amillenialism and allegorical interpretation became dominant with the rise of a hierarchy and the development of the church-state model. It has only been after the separation of the church and state that we've seen a large number of Christians return to our roots ie., literal interpretation and premillenialism.

If we look at Christians who believe in a pre-trib, or mid-trib rapture and a physical millennial reign of Jesus Christ we see the fastest growing congregations that are also the most evangelical.

[imardmd1]

However, I'm not young, and I've been through it before. If you can't back it up with the Bible, it's not worth my time.

Neither am I, and so have I, forty years ago. I can back it up with the Bible, and already have. So has GiovannaNicoletta, so sufficiently, simple, and precise that I cannot improve on it.

You really should read up on the Doctrinal history of "The Rapture".

I do not find that this reference adds much to my previous understanding of the clarity of the Scriptures in this matter, but it is a useful summary.

However, you might want to take a look at a rather more lengthy treaty by my discipler, the scholar/missionary/author/broadcaster Dr. Fred Wittman, given here:

THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN AND THE KINGDOM OF THE GOD

This will treat the rapture in a broader panorama of the progress of The God's plan, so that you have as much context that will be hard to wiggle out of. With it is a pictorial diagram of what happens before and after, as well as what happens to those who do not participate in that rapture event:

Progress of events, including the Rapture

Here is a corollary table comparing the features of Christendom vs. the Kingdom of The God:

Comparison of The Kingdom of Heaven and The Kingdom of The God

That ought to take up at least a part of one's afternoon. Cheers!

[imardmd1]

Sorry -- this sentence needs correction:

>> What I believe is essentially the Biblical view of Augustine's
>> critics, the Donatists, to whom a true church was/is the assembly
>> of immersed regenerated believer-disciples in a particular
>> locale, maintaining their purity through strong preaching, and
>>church discipling,
>> and stabilized by personal discipling into spiritual maturity.

This should have read "church discipline,"

mea culpa --

[Seven_0]

Where does God say that Joseph is a type of Christ?

Scripture does not say that Joseph is a type of Christ, at least not directly. However Adam is a type of Christ, confirmed in Romans 5:14. Some of the similarities and differences of the analogy are given Romans 5 but when we look at other events recorded in Adam’s life we can see Christ. A few examples are in order here: Adam was not deceived; he chose to die as Christ chose to die. Adam loved Eve as Christ loved the Church.

These types are all through scripture. Perhaps a verse that gives us permission to look for them is here:

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

I mention Joseph because he is a neat mix of history with prophecy. Do you see Christ? Joseph was beloved of his father, hated by his brothers. In a figure he was killed, then sold as a slave, taken to Egypt, falsely accused and raised to second in command by the king and all power in Egypt was given to him. Some things are still prophecy. Christ has not yet revealed himself to his brothers nor taken a gentile bride. All in his time.

I understand your aversion to allegorizing scripture; amillennialism is a perversion of this method and is enough the turn people against it.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

As long as we all know that considering Joseph to be a "type" of Christ can find no validation in Scripture and so therefore is man's opinion, then it is what it is. It's not Scriptural and is not absolute truth and inerrant. God used Joseph for the preservation of His chosen people, but Joseph was still a fallen, sinful man and cannot be compared to Christ.

Adam's death was because of sin and cannot in any way be equated or compared with Christ's death on the cross so he is not a "type" of Christ.

The problem arises when people come up with these notions that have nothing to do with what God has written and begin to believe that their own ideas are on an equal level with the Holy Spirit-inspired Bible.

Opinions are opinions and everyone has them, but as long as they cannot be validated by the Word of God, then they are not to be seriously considered as anything other than a product of someone's imagination.

[Yosemitest]

Two personal side notes:

1. I'm working with a 12 year old laptop that's slow.

2. I'm in an old house trailer with an outside temp of 95 F and the air conditioner can't keep up.
Hence, my old toshiba is trying to overheat and shut down.

Now back to your questions.
First, this is spiritual meat, not milk, I'm giving you.
Have you not read ... ?

Whom shall he teach knowledge?
and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line;
here a little, and there a little:
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
To whom he said,
This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest;
and this is the refreshing:
yet they would not hear.
But the word of the LORD was unto them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line;
here a little, and there a little;
that they might go, and fall backward,
and be broken, and snared, and taken ...

Now to your question

"Give me the Scripture where Jesus tells us that His bride, the church, will go through the Tribulation."
This is long, but you ask.
First, will you agree that the "saints" on earth at Christ's Second Coming are part of "His bride, the church" ?
If you do then read on.

Saints in the Book of Revelation

Some argue that the church is mentioned only in the first three chapters of Revelation, and after that, the "saints" are mentioned.
Those who wrest the Scriptures to imply a "secret rapture" argue that "saints" are not necessarily a PART OF GOD'S TRUE CHURCH!
Is this so? Are not these saints members of God's true church?

In Revelation, the fifth chapter, John sees the vision of the scrolls sealed with seven seals and "wept much" because no man was found worthy to open the scrolls or to read it.
Then, in vision, he sees the Lamb, which is Jesus Christ, and describes it this way:

"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts [living creatures] and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb,
having everyone of them harps, and golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints.
"And they [the saints] sung a new song, saying,
Thou art worthy to take the book and to open the seals thereof:
for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
"And has made us [the saints] unto our God kings and priests:
and we shall reign on the earth" (Revelation 5:1-10).

This vision, wherein John sees the righteous qualifications of Jesus Christ as the Lamb "slain from the foundation of the world," also depicts the prayers and supplications of God's saints.
Here, the saints are described as those who were "redeemed to God" by the precious blood of Jesus Christ out of every country on the face of the earth!
They are those who are to be kings and priests with Christ, and to rule all nations of this earth with him, for one thousand years!

Anyone who tries to argue these people are not members of God's true church, Christ's spiritual body, is simply ignorant of God's Word, or a deliberate deceiver.

Jesus promised His own beloved disciples co-rulership with Him, and predicted they would "sit on the thrones of the twelve tribes of Israel" ruling with Him in the Kingdom of God.

It is obvious this reference to "saints" means the consecrated, converted, Spirit-led members of God's true church!

Now, notice:

"Another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer;
and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
"And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angels hand" (Revelation 8:3,4).

This is the second reference to "saints" in the book of Revelation, and once again is obviously spiritual metaphor, or a vision of heaven,
where the prayers of God's converted, Spirit-led people, are seen as ascending up before God
and bringing about the intervention of Almighty God in human affairs by sending the trumpet plagues upon sinning mankind!
By no stretch of the imagination can these "saints" in these two verses be anyone other than Spirit-led members of God's own true church!

The next place where "saints" are mentioned in the book of Revelation is in chapter 11,
just after the description of the famous two witnesses.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ;
and He shall reign forever and ever.
"And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats,
fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
"Saying,
We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come;
because thou has taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead,
that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,
and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth" (Revelation 11:15-18).

Could anyone, in the wildest stretch of his imagination, assert that these saints

who are to be rewarded at the time of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ,
inheriting His Kingdom with Him,
and beginning to RULE the earth,
are anyone other than the members of God's true church?

Now, notice the "saints" mentioned in the thirteenth chapter:

"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,
having seven heads and ten horns...and they worshipped the beast, saying,
Who is like unto the beast?
Who is able to make war with him?
"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemy;
and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months [three and one-half years].
"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God,
to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:
And power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations" (Revelation 13:1-7).

Here, the Beast power together with the False Prophet, now having gained global supremacy, are given the power to "make war with the saints"!

Could such a shocking thing occur?
The "pretribulationists," or the "rapturists," assert that God is going to "snatch away" all of His true church BEFORE the horrifying consequences of the Tribulation, including martyrdom, could occur!
But what did Jesus Christ say?
He told His disciples:

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves:
be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
"But beware of men:
for they will deliver you up to the councils,
and they will scourge you in their synagogues [churches];
"And ye shall be brought [under arrest!] before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
"But when they deliver you up [under arrest, as prisoners!], take no thought how or what ye shall speak:
for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
"For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
"And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death,
and the father the child:
and the children shall rise up against their parents,
and cause them to be put to death.
"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake:
but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
"But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another:
for verily I say unto you,
Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
"The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
"It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord.
If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
"Fear them not therefore:
for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed;
and hid, that shall not be known.
"What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light:
and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:16-28).

Time and again, Jesus Christ predicted that His true saints, the members of His true church, would be hated, persecuted, perhaps some of them even tortured and murdered!

When He said,

"It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master,"
He is referring to His own torture and murder—the crucifixion!
When He tells them not to fear those who are able to "kill the body,"
He is predicting that some of God's true servants, the members of God's true church, the saints will be chosen for martyrdom in the last days!

Is martyrdom a symbol of shame?
Of course not!
God has chosen only the very strongest of His true servants down through the centuries as His martyrs!

The Bible speaks of the "martyrdom of saints."
These are not some group of individuals OTHER THAN God's true church,
but oftentimes the very leaders, apostles, prophets, leading ministers, of the body of Jesus Christ, which is His true church!
The greatest martyr of all was Jesus Christ Himself!

The apostle Paul was martyred.
Perhaps, as history implies, he was thrown to the wild beasts in the arena in Rome.
Tradition says Peter was crucified upside down.
The book of Acts tells us that James, the brother of John, and one of the two sons of Zebedee, was martyred.
We read in Acts the seventh chapter of the martyrdom of Stephen.
Many, many others were martyred for their convictions, their beliefs, for the very fact that they were God's "saints"!

Notice further what Jesus told His true disciples, who were to become the apostles, and a part of the very foundation of His true church:

"He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it" (Matthew 10:39).

What did Christ prophesy for His true church?
How did He characterize His true church in the time of the end, the time during the Great Tribulation, the heavenly signs, and the Day of the Lord, at the last few years and months before His return?

He told His disciples:

"Remember the word that I said unto you,
The servant is not greater than his lord.
If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you;
if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
"But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake,
because they know not Him that sent me.
"If I had not come and spoken unto them they had not had sin:
but now they have no cloak [excuse] for their sin.
"He that hateth me hateth my Father also" (John 15:20-23).

Only moments later, He said:

"These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
"They shall put you out of the synagogues [churches]:
Yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
"And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me" (John 16:1-3).

In His Olivet prophecy, Jesus said to His disciples:

"And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends;
and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
"But there shall not an hair of your head perish" (Luke 21:16-18).

Read that scripture carefully.
Here, Jesus obviously states that some of His true servants, His true church, the saints, will be chosen to be martyrs for the name of Jesus Christ and for the sake of His work and His coming Kingdom.
Others will not.
He also said "There shall not an hair of your head perish."
You will read of a literal application of this principle in Jesus' words to Peter and John after His resurrection.
He implied Peter would be martyred; implied John would live to old age, and die a natural death.
Two great apostles, each chosen for a different manner of witness, a different human destiny. See John 21:15-25.

If you continue reading through the twenty-first chapter of Luke, which is the Olivet prophecy, and Luke's parallel account of Matthew 24,
you will see Jesus describing "Jerusalem compassed with armies," and being "trodden down of the Gentiles, until the× of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
He then shows how the heavenly signs will occur (Luke 21:25)
and how humanity will then "see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory" (Luke 21:27).

His coming occurs after the Tribulation, after the heavenly signs, at the end of the seven last plagues which conclude the Day of the Lord.
It is then, and not one split second earlier, He catches up His saints to meet Him at His descent upon the Mount of Olives (1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 50-52).

Now, after expounding all of these earth-shaking events —

wars and rumors of wars, droughts, famines, disease epidemics, massive loss of life
— He says to His true disciples, His church, His saints who are still on the earth,
"And when these things BEGIN TO COME TO PASS, then look up, and lift up your heads;
for your redemption draweth nigh!" (Luke 21:28).

Where are the saints after all these fantastic events?

They are on the earth, having seen the Great Tribulation, and all the events associated with it unfolding.
They are involved in the work of God,
giving witness and warning to God's people and to all nations of the world,
warning them of the punishments of sin, of God's soon-coming Kingdom, His intervention in the affairs of mankind!
God's people are warned:
"For as a snare shall it [the Great Tribulation!] come on them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
"Watch ye therefore ["you" meaning the church, the saints!] and pray always, that ye might be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21:35,36).

Why should Jesus Christ caution His servants to pray they might be accounted worthy to escape all these things [the Great Tribulation] that are to come to pass,
if He intended "snatching them up" from the earth anyway?

Why did He urge them to pray their flight was not during winter, or on the Sabbath day,
if He was going to "snatch them up" anyway?
Why did He say it would be especially difficult for a pregnant woman
if He was going to "snatch her up" anyway?

Notice some other places in the book of Revelation where the word "saints" is used:
"Here is the patience of the saints:
Here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, write,
Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth [during the Tribulation and the Day of the Lord!]:
yea, saith the spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them" (Revelation 14:12,13).

Once again, we see not only that the saints comprise God's true church —

those who are consecrated, converted, and led by the Holy Spirit of God
— but that it also describes these saints as being martyrs for the name of Jesus Christ!

What is the "patience of the saints"?
It is that they keep God's commandments, and have the faith of Jesus Christ!
Can anyone dare imply that people who are keeping God's commandments, and who have the very faith of Jesus Christ living within them, are somehow not members of God's true church?

Read Revelation 15:3, where Christ is called the "King of saints."
Then, notice Revelation 16:6, which says,

"For they [the Beast and the False Prophet and their armies] have shed the blood of saints and prophets,
and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy."
Finally, notice the following scriptures:
"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus:
and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration" (Revelation 17:6).
"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth" (Revelation 18:24).
"And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white:
for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints" (Revelation 19:8).
"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:
and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them" (Revelation 20:9).

The great fallen church who is the woman "drunken with the blood of the saints" is the Babylonian mystery religion,
with the false Christ—the anti-Christ or the False Prophet of biblical prophecy at its head.
Obviously, these "saints" who have been martyred by this church are the true members of God's true church, and they are called "the martyrs of Jesus."
No mention here, or anywhere else, in the book of Revelation of any "saints" who are anything other than members of God's true church!

Revelation 18:4 shows a picture of the "blood of saints" and all of those who are slain upon the earth being discovered in the dank, filthy records of the great false church.
Revelation 19:8 merely describes that "fine linen" is the symbol of righteousness of the saints,
and Revelation 20:9 depicts the holy city, New Jerusalem, at the end of the Millennium, being surrounded by "Gog and Magog,"
and refers to the holy city as "the camp of the saints."

Here, we have seen every place in the entire book of Revelation where the word "saints" is used.

In each case, it is referring to God's true church — converted people in whom is God's Holy Spirit.
Paul wrote,

"For by one Spirit are we [including Gentiles] all baptized into one body [the church!],
whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free;
and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13).
You do not "join" God's true church.
God automatically puts you into His church when you receive His Spirit, for the church IS that scattered, small, persecuted group in whom is God's Holy Spirit!

By no stretch of the wildest, most fantastic imagination, can ANY of these scriptures be misconstrued to mean that these "saints" are anyone other than members of God's true church!

A pivotal argument advanced by the "pretribulationists," or those who believe in a secret rapture of the church before the Tribulation,
is that Bible references to any "saints" being on earth during the Tribulation are not referring to the church, but a different category of "saints" who are not part of the church!

They know God's Word plainly mentions saints many times after the beginning of the Tribulation.
Therefore, instead of simply abandoning their false doctrine of the "rapture," they try to TWIST God's Word, claiming the "saints" do not mean the church!
How utterly ridiculous.
And how dishonest with God's Word!

Can you be a "saint" and not be a part of God's true church?

The Greek word for "saint" is hagios, which means

"sacred,
pure, morally blameless or religious, consecrated, holy."

Let's notice a few scriptures where the term "saints" is applied,
and see if it means righteous, converted, Godly people, people who are morally pure, sanctified, consecrated, but who are not part of God's true church.

Paul opens the book of Romans by writing to those who are "...called of Jesus Christ: to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints" (Romans 1:7).
Are these people members of God's true Church?

Obviously so. God loves them; they are called by Christ, and called to be saints, and they are part of God's church in Rome!

Seven more times in this book, Paul refers to saints.

Read Romans 8:27; 12:13; 15:25,26,31; 16:2,15.
Here, Paul speaks of "distributing to the necessity of the saints," or "making intercession for the saints," or the "poor saints who are in Jerusalem."
In each case, it is obvious he is speaking of God's called-out, baptized, converted people in whom is God's Holy Spirit.

Dozens of times, throughout Paul's letters, he uses such expressions to connote the members of God's church.
Is anyone ever called a "saint" who is not a member of God's church?

Possibly, for, in Matthew 27:52, you read of the "bodies of the saints" who were resurrected at the time of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection.
These righteous people were morally blameless, living according to God's laws, but yet had not been baptized, or had hands laid on them for the receiving of God's Spirit.

So the question really becomes, "Are there those who are called ‘saints' who are on the earth at the time of the Great Tribulation who are not members of God's church?

Now to your second question:

"can you also give me the Scripture where God authorizes man to determined that He lied in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18?"

He Lied?
What are you talking about? Are you implying that Heaven will NOT be ON EARTH?
Let's look at this carefully!
Let's read verse 17 of 1 Thessalonians, chapter 4 again.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Are you implying that we will NOT meet the Lord?
Are you implying that the Lord will NOT be in the air?
Are you implying that the Lord will REMAIN in the air for ever?
Are you implying that we will NOT be with the Lord for ever?

First let's read more about Jesus's second coming.
Read this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Read where he will set his feet upon his return.
Read in Revelations 19 of the Return of our Lord.
So let us examine the dead.

What Is The True State Of The Dead?

When a person dies, that person ceases to think, feel, see, hear, smell, or have any awareness whatsoever.
The person becomes completely inanimate; having no consciousness whatsoever!
Continually, the Bible speaks of the condition of the dead as being in a deep, profound, unconscious SLEEP!

Notice a couple of outstanding examples: "For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

"And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
"Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:16-20).

Some scoff and sneer, and speak of the state of the dead as "soul sleeping!" This, to them, is a scornful statement!
They wish to cling to their false doctrine of the "immortality of the soul,"
and their false doctrine of going to heaven, or an ever-burning "hell fire."
But scorners shall be judged in the judgment, and any who sneer at the inspired word of God will have their reward in Gehenna.
These sacred words of God, in your own Bible, are not to be sneered at.
We are commanded to TREMBLE before the word of God, and to fear to try to alter it (Isaiah 66:1, 2).

Notice what God inspired Luke to write about the martyrdom of Stephen:

"And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.
And when he had said this, he fell asleep" (Acts 7:60).
Another example is what Paul wrote to the church in Thessalonica about the resurrection of the dead.
He wrote
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them those which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [preceed] them which are asleep."
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
"Then
[and not a moment BEFORE then!] we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air [in the "first" heaven; in this earth's atmosphere, where clouds form!]:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

And where will the Lord BE? Why, ON THIS EARTH!
He is coming again; coming back to this earth to stand in that day on the Mount of Olives!
Read it in your own Bible!

"And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east,
and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
and there shall be a very great valley;
and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south" (Zechariah 14:4).
Christ told His disciples He would RETURN to this earth — He NEVER told them they would be "raptured up to heaven!"

Jesus continually spoke of a resurrection of the dead. He said,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God:
and they that hear shall live" (John 5:25).

He described those who were in their graves, dead, knowing nothing, at the time of the Second Coming of Christ.

"Marvel not at this:
for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the grave shall hear His voice, and shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" ["judgment," margin] (John 5:28-29).
Here, Christ spoke of both the FIRST resurrection; the resurrection of the "dead in Christ," as well as the SECOND resurrection to "judgment."
Remember, "...the REST OF THE DEAD [those not included in the first resurrection] lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Revelation 20:5).

These scriptures plainly refer to a future event.
Jesus spoke of a general resurrection from the dead, which He called a resurrection "of life."
He clearly spoke of the opposite of death. He spoke of life.

God's word says "The dead know not anything."
Solomon wrote,

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,
neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them ["their memory," not that we forget the dead,
but that their conscious minds and memory ceases] is forgotten.
"Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished [they are not alive, aware, thinking —but in the deepest most profound sleep; unconscious];
neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6).
He also wrote,
"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other;
yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
"All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again" (http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/ecclesiastes/passage.aspx?q=ecclesiastes+3:19-20Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20).

God's Word reveals that human beings live a physical, chemical existence.
We are mortal, temporary, transitory creatures; sustained by the material elements of this physical creation.
We are water-drinking, air-breathing, food-ingesting creatures whose life is dependent solely upon our bloodstream and the foods (as fuel) we take into our systems.

When we die, a total cessation of this physical, chemical existence occurs. Death is the absence of life.
The Bible describes those who go down into their graves as being just as dead as any animal is dead!
Yet, while the body is dead, and will decay, and turn to "dust" again, the SPIRIT IS PROFOUNDLY ASLEEP!

Paul, anticipating questions about how God can raise up someone who has been devoured by a shark, or cremated, said,

"But some man will say, how are the dead raised up?
And with what body do they come?
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be,
but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or some other grain:
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed His own body.
All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars:
for one star differeth from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead.
It is sown in corruption: it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness: it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15:35-44).

This revealing chapter plainly shows that, at death, your physical, temporal bodies, sustained in a chemical existence by the natural elements of this earth;
food, water, and air, completely cease to function, and that total unconsciousness and oblivion results!

Not only is there a complete cessation of life — there is total loss of consciousness!

Then, within moments after death, the physical body begins to decay.

This beautiful fifteenth chapter of 1 Corinthians explains

that no matter how rapidly that decaying process (whether being blown to bits in an atomic explosion or slowly decaying in a normal grave)
God is capable of completely re-creating a new spirit life, giving the individual a brand-new spirit body!

Christ Will Reign ON THIS EARTH!

There are far too many scriptures picturing Christ's 1,000-year reign on this earth to reprint them all here

However, here are a few examples:

"And it shall come to pass in the last days,
that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills;
and all nations shall flow unto it.
"And many people shall go and say,
Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob;
and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths:
for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
"And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people:
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks:
nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more" (Isaiah 2:2-5).
Read an almost exact parallel in Micah's fourth chapter.

The resurrected saints exult that God "…hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth" (Revelation 5:10).
Christ promised RULERSHIP over physical cities, states, nations—over this earth! Notice!

"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron;
as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father" (Revelation 2:26, 27).

Those who have surrendered their wills to God;
who have repented of sin, and who are striving, with the help of the Holy Spirit, to live a life of overcoming,
will be given complete power and authority over cities, counties, states, and whole nations!
Do you remember what Jesus said to His disciples just prior to His crucifixion?

"...Verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed me,
in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory,
ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel!" (Matthew 19:28).

Jesus Christ says that even those who live in this day can have an opportunity for co-rulership in His new government, which is to be set up on this earth after His Second Coming!

Jesus Christ is coming to inherit a literal throne! That throne is on this earth.

When Mary was told of the great miracle which would occur; that she had been chosen to become the mother of Jesus Christ,

"…the angel said unto her,
Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favor with God.
And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a Son, and shalt call His name JESUS.
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest:
and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father David;
and He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever;
and of His kingdom there shall be no end!" (Luke 1:30-33).

God made a binding covenant with David, telling him
because David remained faithful to God's laws and precepts that there would never fail
seed from David's own family to sit upon His physical throne!
Believe it or not, that throne still exists on this earth!

(Read the book Europe and America in Prophecy, which details where David's throne remains today,
and shows you where the United States is identified in Bible prophecy).

Read the prophecy of Daniel's second chapter, where you see, after the description of the four great successive world-ruling Gentile kingdoms,
a "stone cut out without hands" which smites the image on its feet [the ten toes representing the ten kings of Revelation 17] and which then "becomes a great mountain and fills the whole earth."

Clearly, in this prophecy, the figurative stone represents the returning, conquering Christ!
The great image represents the successive stages of the Gentile world-ruling kingdoms, culminating in the BEAST depicted in Daniel 7, and Revelation 13 and 17.

The ten kings who fight Christ at His coming (Revelation 17) are represented by the ten toes of the great image, mixed with iron and miry clay.

The "great mountain" is symbolic of the Kingdom of God, which will rule over the entirety of the earth!

Now, notice a portion of the inspiring chapter of Isaiah 11.
Please read it all, slowly and carefully, in your own Bible:

"But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth:
and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
"And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
and the leopard shall lie down with the kid;
and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
and a little child shall lead them.
"And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together:
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
"And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp,
and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
"They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain:
for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea" (Isaiah 11:4-9).
There are no poisonous snakes; no lions or oxen up in heaven!
This is describing conditions which will prevail ON THIS EARTH during the millennial reign of Christ.

John wrote of His vision of the earthly kingdom of Christ:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls [Greek: psuche, the same as the Hebrew nephesh meaning physical life.
Notice they were "beheaded"; martyred!] of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Revelation 20:4).

God is calling a cadre of individuals as the advance emissaries of His soon-coming Kingdom!
Notice how Christ said the Kingdom of God was "like leaven" in one sense:

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened" (Matthew 13:33).
Leavening is an AGENT.
As the yeast spores divide, and bud, an explosive growth of "leavening" occurs in the lump of dough.

Each converted Christian is an AGENT.
He or she is to become an active part of the WORK of God, announcing the wondrous, exciting, inspiring GOOD NEWS that we can be BORN OF GOD;
that we can LIVE FOREVER; that we can join Christ in His millennial reign!

Now, finally, WHERE?

REMEMBER, "heaven" is capable of three different meanings.
But the "third heaven" is the heaven of God's throne!

For 1,000 years, Christ will occupy DAVID'S throne, here on this earth!
Then, for a period of 100 years, Satan will be allowed to influence mankind again.
At the end of that period, those who follow Satan, and the incorrigible dead, as pictured by the rich man in the parable of Lazarus (Luke 16),
will come up in the THIRD resurrection—the resurrection to DEATH BY GEHENNA FIRE!

Notice,

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:
and they were judged every man according to their works.
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:13-15).
The word "hell" comes from the Greek word Hades, which has nothing to do with fire.
It means, simply, "the grave."
Had not the translators been influenced by a false concept of an ever-burning hell fire, they would have rendered the word correctly; "the grave."

When is a grave not a grave?
It is only a grave when it contains a body.
The word "hell" comes from an old Nordic word, Behelian, and Hel, which was a pagan notion of a god of the underworld.
As recently as the 1930's farmers in America spoke of placing their potatoes in "hell" for the winter.
My own uncle did so. He had a "potato cave" on his property, which he termed "hell."

When are "death and the grave," meaning the incorrigible wicked cast into the lake of fire?
Not until at the end of a period of more than 1,100 years!
This is the SAME event described by Peter in his second letter (2 Peter 3:10).

Notice that this destruction by Gehenna fire is called "the SECOND death!"
As already explained, the wages of sin is death -

not the first death which comes to all humans, but the SECOND death IN GEHENNA FIRE!

Now, quickly review what you have learned.

First, you do not have an "immortal soul" at all, but a HUMAN SPIRIT, which has no consciousness apart from your mind.

Second, we do not go immediately either to heaven or an ever-burning hell when we die,
but to the GRAVE, where we are completely unconscious, in oblivion, unaware of the passage of time, until the resurrection.

Third, your loved ones who have died are NOT in heaven or "hell" now.

Fourth, the "hell fire" of the Bible is much hotter than the "hell fire" described by "fire and brimstone" preachers,
for it burns up the wicked, who shall be "ashes under the feet of the righteous."

Fifth, there is coming a great, second resurrection of all those who have ever lived and died without a chance for salvation, including our little Chinese girl.

Sixth, there is coming a THIRD resurrection when all those who have committed the unpardonable sin;
those who WILLED not to repent; those who were incorrigible, will be burned in Gehenna fire!

Seventh, you and I have the glorious opportunity to join Jesus Christ in His world-ruling kingdom,
and—are you ready for this?—EVENTUALLY BE IN HEAVEN!

HEAVEN ON EARTH

Notice the picture of the "new heavens and new earth" to be formed following the great, final resurrection;

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth:
for the first heaven [this earth's atmosphere] and the first earth [the lithosphere and bathysphere] were passed away;
and there was no more sea.
"And 1 John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven,
prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
"And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,
Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men,
and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people,
and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Revelation 21:1-3).

Can your mind grasp it?
Heaven is where God is! It is the place of His throne!
Your Bible plainly says that GOD THE FATHER will bring HIS THRONE;
His heavenly city "the New Jerusalem" down to this earth after Christ has completed His work of salvation!

God is SO PERFECT; so omniscient; so holy; so righteous, that He will not tolerate being in the presence of sin!
So long as ONE SINGLE SINNER is still on earth, God the Father will not come here!
But when the final chapter of the plan of God has been written;
when the last rebellious, sneering, scoffing, cursing, God-defying sinner has been destroyed;
when Satan has been hurled to the blackest, distant, "outer darkness,"
God the Father will join Christ and His saints HERE, on this earth!

With Him will be the twenty-four elders; the cherubim and the seraphim!
With Him will be MILLIONS of powerful angels!
The earth will have no longer any need of weather, of soil, of water;
of the elements necessary to sustain animal and human life.

It will become the HEADQUARTERS OF ALMIGHTY GOD from which He will launch His NEXT project!

Notice it,

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away.
"And he that sat upon the throne [God the Father!] said,
Behold, I make all things new" (Revelation 21:4, 5).

The real truth is that we, IF we qualify for His glorious kingdom, will then BE IN HEAVEN — for heaven will be ON THIS EARTH!

John wrote,

"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us,
that we should be called the sons of God:
therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God,
and it doth not yet appear what we shall be:
but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him;
for we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:1, 2).

Finally, God says we will be able to SEE GOD!
Paul wrote,

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part;
but then shall I know even as also I am known" (1 Corinthians 13:13).
God knows us thoroughly!
He knows the thoughts of our heart. He knows, and understands, our innermost motives.
How INSPIRING it is to know we will finally KNOW GOD;
know how He thinks; know His mind; His awesome power;
His creative ability; His great compassion; His mercy; His love!

The real truth about what Job spoke is obscured slightly by the translators, although made plain in the margin.
Here is the true sense of what Job said,

"For I know that my Redeemer liveth,
and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
"And though worms destroy this body,
after I awake, though this body be destroyed, yet out of my flesh shall I see God!
"Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold. My reins within me are consumed with earnest desire for that day!" (Job 19:25-27).

At the conclusion of the Bible; as God closes His narrative He has given to us,
He caused John to see a vision of this earth as it shall be during and after the millennial reign of Christ.

"And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal,
proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life,
which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month:
and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
"And there shall be no more curse:
but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;
and his servants shall serve him:
"And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads" (Revelation 22:1-4).

Yes, those who receive Christ as personal Savior; those who repent, and are baptized, and receive God's Holy Spirit,
will eventually BE IN HEAVEN with God the Father and Christ Himself!

That is because HEAVEN WILL BE ON EARTH!
And then, when our heavenly Father makes His thunderous pronouncement, "BEHOLD, I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW," we will know we are at…  the beginning.

I hope you appreciate the hours of labor that went into this post.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

Um, yeah.

The Bible tells us that there will be multitudes who were not saved during the current church age who will be saved during the Tribulation. Revelation 7:4 talks about the 144,000 Jewish believers who will go throughout the world, preaching the gospel and bringing people to Christ. Revelation 6:9-11 talks about those who refuse to take the mark of the Beast, are beheaded, and are in Heaven:

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed..

These are Tribulation saints, not church-age saints. They were left behind at the Rapture because they did not know Christ at that time, and they become saved during the Tribulation. The church, as we know from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, is not present on earth during the Tribulation so the "saints" as they are spoken of in the book of Revelation and anywhere else in Scripture that speaks of the Tribulation period does not refer to those who know Christ presently.

So Jesus tells His bride, His church, that they are not appointed to wrath, and that He will take His bride out, not through the wrath and Tribulation that will come on the earth, and now we have Jesus telling His church that He will come and get us and take us to where He is.

Here is Jesus' direct quote of the promise to come and get His church:

“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4“And you know the way where I am going. (John 14:3)

So Jesus tells His bride, His church that He will come and get them and take them to where He is.

Where is Jesus located?

[RaisingCain]

You are obviously very learned on these subjects, just from the words you are using. What would you suggest I do to better study end times prophecy? The closest I have for a study guide is Matthew Henry’s commentaries, and he was quite convinced that Daniel’s 70 weeks were resolved some time ago. But my total understanding of end times Biblical prophecy is pitiful.

[Seven_0]

As long as we all know that considering Joseph to be a "type" of Christ can find no validation in Scripture and so therefore is man's opinion

Perhaps the similar things that happened to Joseph and Christ were a coincidence or perhaps they are profitable for doctrine. Can we determine? Is it not at least a prophecy of Christ?

but Joseph was still a fallen, sinful man and cannot be compared to Christ.

If God declared Joseph to be righteous by faith, could he then use him as a type of Christ?

Adam's death was because of sin and cannot in any way be equated or compared with Christ's death on the cross so he is not a "type" of Christ.

Christ’s death was also because of sin; they at least had that in common.

[imardmd1]

Just looking over my bookshelf, I would have a harder time finding a better treatment in one book than "Maranatha -- Our Lord Come!" by Renald Showers. Publisher in 1995 was The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, Inc., P. O. Box 908, Bellmawr, New Jersey 08099.

Dr, Showers' credentials are: Philadelphia College of the Bible diploma; Wheaton, B. A.; Dallas Theol., Th. M. (church history); and Grace Theological, Th. D. (Theology). At the time of publication, was on staff of FOIGM.

This volume is available from Amazon at this link:

http://www.amazon.com/Maranatha-Our-Lord-Come-Definitive/dp/0915540223

Amazon's price is $9.56 USD plus shipping; but on that page people are offering it for $4.95 up. That's pretty reasonable, and you'll get it very quickly.

But let me ask you: Are you not being personally discipled under a spiritually mature trained discipler, who himself was discipled into maturity--not through a Bible Institute--but as the Apostles were discipled, and who discipled their successors? If not, you might consider that a fruitful and challenging path forward, one that The God expects from His children. (Heb. 5:12-6:3)

Studying prophecy is a deep subject, and probably not one you want to tackle alone. The Holy Ghost will teach you from His Word, but an experienced and faithful teacher can put you on the right track, and help you be accountable for your progress. And your growth should be across the range of in-doctrination, not just on prophecy.

If you have further questions requiring a less public communication, that is available as a reply option.

[imardmd1]

Adam's death was because of sin and cannot in any way be equated or compared with Christ's death on the cross so he is not a "type" of Christ.

I've got to chip in and call you on this one, GN. Seven_0's point was not opinion. The supporting, unchallengeable text is:

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was mde a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. ... The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven" (1 Cor. 15:45, 47).

When you think this through, what has the Holy Ghost said? Note that "written" (grapho) is in the perfect, passive, indicative. Once written, it stands forever. This is a very important lesson.

Respectfully --

[Yosemitest]

Don’t waste my time. Reread post #46.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

I still don't believe that Adam is a "type" of Christ.

Adam's death was because of his own sin. Christ's death was for the sin of the world.

There really is no equating the two. I don't see that Scripture as supporting the idea that a man who died because he was fallen and because he sinned is a "type" of the sinless, perfect Christ.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

Wasting your time? You post a novel with not one verse of Scripture to validate your opinion that the church will go through the judgment that God not only tells us is for those who reject Him as Savior, but on numerous occasions promises to remove His church from, and you really believe that I'm wasting your time?

I can reconcile my pre-Trib belief with any Scripture in the Bible. You, on the other hand, have to deny every single passage I have asked you about to make your false doctrine work.

If you like, I can give you even more Scripture that will nuke your anti-Scriptural assertion that the bride of Jesus Christ will be put through the same judgment as those who reject Him.

What do you say?

[Yosemitest]

"You post a novel with not one verse of Scripture ... "

I spent may hours linking those Scriptures to prove it.
You didn't read it.
You haven't addressed the questions I asked you.

"can you also give me the Scripture where God authorizes man to determined that He lied in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18?"

He Lied?
What are you talking about?
Are you implying that Heaven will NOT be ON EARTH?

Let's look at this carefully!
Let's read verse 17 of 1 Thessalonians, chapter 4 again.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Are you implying that we will NOT meet the Lord?
Are you implying that the Lord will NOT be in the air?
Are you implying that the Lord will REMAIN in the air for ever?
Are you implying that we will NOT be with the Lord for ever?

First let's read more about Jesus's second coming.
Read this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Read where he will set his feet upon his return.
Read in Revelations 19 of the Return of our Lord.
So let us examine the dead.

Have you not read ... ?

As snow in summer, and as rain in harvest,
so honour is not seemly for a fool.
As the bird by wandering, as the swallow by flying,
so the curse causeless shall not come.
A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass,
and a rod for the fool's back.
Answer not a fool according to his folly,
lest thou also be like unto him.
Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own conceit.
He that sendeth a message by the hand of a fool
cutteth off the feet, and drinketh damage.
The legs of the lame are not equal:
so is a parable in the mouth of fools.
As he that bindeth a stone in a sling,
so is he that giveth honour to a fool.
As a thorn goeth up into the hand of a drunkard,
so is a parable in the mouth of fools.
The great God that formed all things
both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors.
As a dog returneth to his vomit,
so a fool returneth to his folly.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

The Bible does not contradict itself.

I posted the Scripture where Jesus Christ emphatically states and promises that those who know Him as Savior will not be put through the judgment and punishment of those who have rejected Him.

There is not one verse in the Word of God that you can post that contradicts any of those statements and promises that Jesus made.

Therefore, you have given me nothing Scriptural that validates your opinion that the bride of Christ will go through the wrath of God.

Simple as that. Would you like for me to give you more Biblical proof of what Jesus said?

[cva66snipe]

I do believe The Calling Up of the Church will happen at some point before The Tribulation begins, before the Antichrist takes power of a world government, and before the nations of the world turn on Israel. IOW before Israel is deceived into a treaty with the Antichrist. GOD called Noah into the Ark before judging the world, GOD called Israel out of Egypt before judging Egypt, when The Father says bring forth The Bride Christ will bring His Bride the Church {believers} to be with Him. This is not the same event as The Second Coming which occurs after The Tribulations. No one knows the hour or day Christ returns for His Bride.

The time of The Second Coming of Christ is described as The Tribulations have passed. But the time before His Return are described in Luke ch 17

22Later he talked again about this with his disciples. “The time is coming when you will long to share in the days of the Son of Man, but you won’t be able to,” he said. 23“Reports will reach you that the Son of Man has returned and that he is in this place or that. Don’t believe such reports or go out to look for him. 24For when the Son of Man returns, you will know it beyond all doubt. It will be as evident as the lightning that flashes across the sky. 25But first the Son of Man must suffer terribly£ and be rejected by this generation. 26“When the Son of Man returns, the world will be like the people were in Noah’s day. 27In those days before the flood, the people enjoyed banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat and the flood came to destroy them all. 28“And the world will be as it was in the days of Lot. People went about their daily business—eating and drinking, buying and selling, farming and building—29until the morning Lot left Sodom. Then fire and burning sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30Yes, it will be ‘business as usual’ right up to the hour when the Son of Man returns.£ 31On that day a person outside the house£ must not go into the house to pack. A person in the field must not return to town. 32Remember what happened to Lot’s wife! 33Whoever clings to this life will lose it, and whoever loses this life will save it. 34That night two people will be asleep in one bed; one will be taken away, and the other will be left. 35Two women will be grinding flour together at the mill; one will be taken, the other left.”£ 37“Lord, where will this happen?” the disciples asked. Jesus replied, “Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near.”£

Those times being described do not sound like a world that has been through The Tribulations. It sounds like a world fixing to fall under judgment.

The calling forth of the Bride by Christ is a spiritual calling out. Reading 1 Corinthians 15:

50What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These perishable bodies of ours are not able to live forever. 51But let me tell you a wonderful secret God has revealed to us. Not all of us will die, but we will all be transformed. 52It will happen in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, the Christians who have died£ will be raised with transformed bodies. And then we who are living will be transformed so that we will never die. 53For our perishable earthly bodies must be transformed into heavenly bodies that will never die. 54When this happens—when our perishable earthly bodies have been transformed into heavenly bodies that will never die—then at last the Scriptures will come true:

When the last trumpet is blown this is not a trumpet blast talked about in The Revelation this the second blast as related to the Jewish wedding tradition. When The Father of The Groom tells His Son to bring His Bride that blast occurs. One last thing pointing to this is The Revelation chapter 4. John sees The 24 Elders cloathed in white with gold crowns. He sees this before he is shown the Tribulation. The Twenty Four Elders we do not know who they are yet only GOD knows. We do know that being robed in white and gold crown means they have pased judgment and are rightous. They are the ones in chapter 5 saying

1And I saw a scroll in the right hand of the one who was sitting on the throne. There was writing on the inside and the outside of the scroll, and it was sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a strong angel, who shouted with a loud voice: “Who is worthy to break the seals on this scroll and unroll it?” 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll and read it. 4Then I wept because no one could be found who was worthy to open the scroll and read it. 5But one of the twenty-four elders said to me, “Stop weeping! Look, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the heir to David’s throne,£ has conquered. He is worthy to open the scroll and break its seven seals.”

Why would John be seeing the 24 Elders if they were not in heaven at the Throne of GOD before the Tribulations begin? The Bible clearly places them being there before judgment begins. One of the 24 could very well be one still living today. We don't know.

But ones belief as to the order of events to occur before Christ Second Coming is not what determines a persons salvation. Rather it is how they interpit and understand scriptures. Any of us could be right in our understanding or only partially right.

If we are to indeed be in The Tribulations till the end then I have no doubt our Lord and Savior will as He was with Shadrach, Meshach, & Abednego even before His life on earth had began He will be with us and not foresake us.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

Great post, cva66snipe! Thank you!

I agree that a person's understanding of the order of events surrounding Christ's return does not determine their salvation. The problem is when a person is continually presented with Scriptural truth and continues to deny - not because of a lack of understanding, but because they do not want to know and see the truth, they hate the truth, and refuse to see the truth.

If someone who is truly saved is mislead at some point as to Christ's return it doesn't affect their salvation but it does rob them of the "blessed hope" that Christ tells us that those of us who know Him as Savior have in the promise of the harpazo. I believe that those people can be shown through Scripture that they, like Christ says, are not appointed to His wrath and will be, like Christ says, removed from the time of the Tribulation. Sometimes the belief in the error of a post-Tribulation Rapture comes from a genuine emotional conviction that it would be unfair for the modern Church to escape to heaven scot free to escape the martyrdom that other believers have experienced. And while it is easy to understand such an emotion, it would be wrong to deny the doctrine of the pretribulation Rapture on this basis alone. The reality is that while many Christians have endured tremendous persecutions and tribulations, untold millions of believers have lived out their lives in times of peace. Furthermore, all of those Christians who died in either peace or persecution throughout history have already escaped the Great Tribulation.

I really believe that for many of those who are in Christ, prayer and consistent Biblical teaching will bring them to the understanding that they will not go through the time that Jesus has set aside for this evil, Christ-rejecting world and that they do have that "blessed hope" that Jesus has given us.

I especially appreciate the Scripture from Luke 17 you posted and the fact you pointed out that that cannot describe anything other than a pre-Tribulation Rapture. And pointing out that the trumpet is akin to the ancient Jewish wedding is wonderful too. I have seen the comparison between the old Jewish wedding traditions and the Rapture of the church. The similarities are uncanny.

Thank you again for your excellent post. And, rest assured from Jesus Himself, His bride will not go through the Tribulation.

[imardmd1]

I still don't believe that Adam is a "type" of Christ. ... There really is no equating the two. I don't see that Scripture as supporting the idea ...

If you are going to insist on a literal interpretation, you must accept Romans 5:14:

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

"adam hos estin tupos tou mellontos"

"tupos" = type = figure (translated

There it is, explictly and insuperable --

For others observing, a helpful link:

Interpreting Types

(Don't be intransigeant - nudge nudge)

With sincere respect --

[imardmd1]

... death reigned from Adam to Moses ...

Here "Adam" and "Moses" are metonomies (figurative-literal language) for a time span limited by the Covenants -- Adamic, Noachic, Abrahamic, Mosaic; whereas the second reference in that verse to "Adam" is to his real person (literal language) as well as his symbolic characterization (explicit figurative-literal use) . The One who is to come is literally Christ, not figurative.