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The Old Testament Foretold that Mary Would Give Birth Without Pain (Catholic Caucus)
Cantaur ^ | December 22, 2012 | DR. TAYLOR MARSHALL

Posted on 12/23/2012 3:24:52 PM PST by NYer

Painting: Michaelangelo's Prophet Isaiah

Dear friends,

We are all familiar with Isaiah's well known prophecy of Christmas:

“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a Virgin shall conceive, and bear a Son and his name shall be called Emmanuel.” (Isaiah 7:14)

However, Isaiah made another (lesser known) prophecy of Christmas:

"Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a Manchild" (Isa 66:7)

This verse is the basis for the Catholic teaching that Mary experienced no pain when she delivered Christ at Bethlehem. The Roman Catechism teaches that Christ passed through her "as sunlight passes through glass."

The reason for this is that Mary is the New Eve who gives birth to the promised Savior (see Gen 3:15). As New Eve, the Blessed Virgin Mary escapes the curse of Eve - labor pains.

This might be something interesting to discuss this Christmas with family or below in the comments. Keep in mind that all the Church Fathers before AD 600 believed that Mary's delivery was painless.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: brokencaucus; isaiah; scripture
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1 posted on 12/23/2012 3:25:09 PM PST by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Catholic Caucus Thread

Ping!

2 posted on 12/23/2012 3:27:35 PM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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To: NYer
Because Jesus was to be born of an immaculate vessel, Mary was born without the stain of Original sin.

So, because she was born sinless and without stain, she was not subject to the curse of Eve who did sin.

3 posted on 12/23/2012 3:31:25 PM PST by Slyfox (The key to Marxism is medicine - V. Lenin)
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: bramps
So, because she was born sinless and without stain, she was not subject to the curse of Eve who did sin. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Could you politely educate me on the biblical passage that backs that statement up?

This is a teaching of the Catholic Church. Since our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ (who is Divine as well as human) would not have been born into this world by way of an unclean temple. This is why the Church teaches Mary was without original sin.

While the Bible contains the written Word of God, the Word of God also lives in the Church. (Jesus established the Church and promised that evil shall never overcome it - therefore what the Church teaches is the Word of God even if it's not in the Bible)

There are many things that are not in the Bible, but are nonetheless just as true as if they were. This is very evident in the last verses of John's Gospel.

5 posted on 12/23/2012 4:34:47 PM PST by mtg
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To: NYer

It seems like it’s always men who are very concerned about this. This fits with their general discomfort with all the natural processes of women’s bodies, not just childbirth.


7 posted on 12/23/2012 4:48:15 PM PST by Tax-chick (If I had two dead rats, I'd give you one.)
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Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

That verse is talking about “men”. God certainly could.


10 posted on 12/23/2012 5:57:31 PM PST by sigzero
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To: crosshairs

Mary’s saviour is the same as ours.

Original sin is different than personal sin, it is more like a state of being.

Also, we do not believe that an eight-month old child has, or can, sin. So the “all” in the verse cannot mean every single human being excluding none. It must therefore be a rhetorical “all.”


11 posted on 12/23/2012 5:57:36 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: NYer
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12 posted on 12/23/2012 6:06:17 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: bramps
In one word: "Kecharitomene."

In the Bible, every time a person is given a new name by God, it signifies something big: it reveals your very inner identity, what God made you to be:

Abram --> Abraham (Father of Nations)

Jacob --> Israel (Wrestles with God)

Simon BarJonah --> Peter (Rock)

The unparalleled word, spoken by an Archangel, which gave Mary a name/title indicating her true self, was (in Greek) "Kecharitomene," a name/title not used anywhere else in the Bible, nor indeed anywhere in Greek literature, as a nominative (not just an adjective). It is a past perfect passive verbal form, participle, with a feminine ending, used as a form of address: "She who was completely filled with grace."

Other Biblical persons were described as being "filled with (or full of) grace" -- as we would put it in English --- but in Mary's case, the verb form is, as I mentioned, unique: which makes sense if she is the sole person handing on a human nature to Jesus: she was his only human parent. So the human nature she handed on to Him had to be without the defective inheritance of a marred nature.

This doesn't make her superhuman. It makes her Just. Plain. Human. With the unmarred humanness that everybody would have possessed as their birthright, if human nature had not been blighted by the shattering fall of our first parents.

14 posted on 12/23/2012 6:23:41 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts. - Joe Friday)
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To: Resettozero

This is a caucus thread. Are you Catholic?


15 posted on 12/23/2012 6:52:15 PM PST by surroundedbyblue (Live the message of Fatima - pray & do penance!)
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To: Resettozero

Resettozero:

I will take St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Ambrose of Milan, and St. Augustine, and St. Johan Damascene’s interpretation of Isiah 66:7 over yours and your local Pastor in wherever you are United States.


16 posted on 12/23/2012 7:33:42 PM PST by CTrent1564
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Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

Comment #18 Removed by Moderator

To: Ruy Dias de Bivar; Bryan24; Resettozero

This Religion Forum thread is labeled “Catholic Caucus” meaning if you are not currently, actively Catholic - then do not post on this thread.


19 posted on 12/23/2012 8:28:08 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

Sorry, Religion Moderator. Been on FR for 10+ years, never seen a thread where religious segregation was enforced.

My apologies to the Catholics.


20 posted on 12/23/2012 9:16:55 PM PST by Bryan24 (When in doubt, move to the right..........)
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To: Religion Moderator

On second thought, why are they taking up space on FreeRepublic and posting publicly with private discussion only?

What exactly is the FR policy on closed threads?


21 posted on 12/23/2012 9:20:08 PM PST by Bryan24 (When in doubt, move to the right..........)
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To: Bryan24
Special guidelines are required to avoid flamewars due to the sensitive nature of religious debate. Click here to read the Religion Forum guidelines.
22 posted on 12/23/2012 9:34:48 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Bryan24

Read the Religion Moderator’s page for a fairly detailed explanation: http://www.freerepublic.com/~religionmoderator/


23 posted on 12/23/2012 9:37:54 PM PST by Chesterbelloc
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To: NYer
"This verse is the basis for the Catholic teaching that Mary experienced no pain when she delivered Christ at Bethlehem. The Roman Catechism teaches that Christ passed through her "as sunlight passes through glass."

it is also foundational in our belief in Her sinlessness. It was through the sins of Eve that mankind would be brought into the world in pain (Gen 3:16).

Peace be with you.

24 posted on 12/23/2012 10:11:11 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: NYer; mgist; raptor22; victim soul; Isabel2010; Smokin' Joe; Michigander222; PJBankard; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

25 posted on 12/23/2012 10:22:39 PM PST by narses
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To: NYer; mgist; raptor22; victim soul; Isabel2010; Smokin' Joe; Michigander222; PJBankard; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

26 posted on 12/23/2012 10:23:13 PM PST by narses
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To: NYer

So in other words, what I had seen in the movie, “The Nativity”, the birth of Christ scene was in error?

So is this what must be believed and accepted by all Christians or just what is taught for Catholics?

Thank-you for your answers, God Bless, and have a good and blessed Merry Christmas. :)


27 posted on 12/24/2012 3:28:25 AM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: Tax-chick
It seems like it’s always men who are very concerned about this. This fits with their general discomfort with all the natural processes of women’s bodies, not just childbirth.

It's not the natural processes that we are concerned with. It is the consequences of those processes. Ask any man.

28 posted on 12/24/2012 5:29:57 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr
Ask any man.

I could, but I imagine that would tend to cause me to despise him, which is hardly the Christmas spirit.

But that aside, I think the idea that Jesus was not born naturally is theologically parlous, driven by the misogyny and biological ignorance of the writers. If Jesus did not have a natural human body, from His conception until His resurrection, and if His mother did not have a natural human body, then He is not fully man and fully God, but something else.

29 posted on 12/24/2012 5:51:39 AM PST by Tax-chick (If I had two dead rats, I'd give you one.)
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To: Biggirl
So in other words, what I had seen in the movie, “The Nativity”, the birth of Christ scene was in error?

Never having seen the movie, I have no way of knowing how they depicted the birth of Jesus. Since Hollywood is not populated with theologians, I doubt they gave much thought to the scriptural origin of this topic.

We remember that one of the sufferings inherited because of original sin is that of "child bearing pains:" The Lord God said to Eve, "I will intensify the pangs of your childbearing; in pain shall you bring forth children" (Genesis 3:16). Since Mary was free from original sin by her immaculate conception, she would consequently be free of "child bearing pain."

Read More

30 posted on 12/24/2012 5:54:36 AM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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To: NYer

Thank-you, bookmarked, very helpful. Merry Christmas! :)=^..^=


31 posted on 12/24/2012 5:58:27 AM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

To: Religion Moderator
This Religion Forum thread is labeled “Catholic Caucus” meaning if you are not currently, actively Catholic - then do not post on this thread.

Will comply. But (1) I didn't post on the FR Religion Forum; this thread must have started in the main forum before being moved or before being labeled "Catholic Caucus".

(2) A "please" would have been more civil than an order.

(3) Please point me to a "Conservatives Only" thread where others are disallowed, just as they are from the Roman Catholic Church Caucus threads.

(4) I would apologize to the FReepers who I offended, but I cannot apologize to anyone for speaking the truth. Instead, I ask these FReepers who responded to me to understand I meant no disrespect for their privacy on Free Republic. Thank you.
33 posted on 12/24/2012 6:32:29 AM PST by Resettozero
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To: Resettozero; Religion Moderator
Dear friend, please accept my personal apologies for any misunderstanding and clarify the nature of posting this thread as a caucus.

This thread was posted to the Religion Forum and labeled from the start as a "Catholic Caucus", without any malicious intent towards non-catholics. If anything, I never intended to provoke controversy and limited the audience to catholics who appreciate the historical perspective of this topic.

Please accept my sincerest wishes for a Blessed Christmas.

34 posted on 12/24/2012 7:08:32 AM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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To: NYer

I hope you will believe me when I say this thread also appeared on the main forum, at least for a while, before it was removed from the main forum. I do not visit the Religion Forum on Free Republic because of situations such as this.


35 posted on 12/24/2012 7:16:27 AM PST by Resettozero
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To: Resettozero; NYer
Just so you know, some of us stay on “COMMENTS” so we see every thread and every comment that is posted. That is how you get freepers who are not Catholic showing up posting on the Religion forum.
36 posted on 12/24/2012 7:27:04 AM PST by Ditter
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To: Ditter

Thank you. I’ll look into this and try to make sure I don’t post where unwanted on Free Republic in the future.


37 posted on 12/24/2012 7:33:41 AM PST by Resettozero
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To: Tax-chick
I think the idea here, Tax-Chick, is that breakage, tearing, bleeding and pain were not intended "from the beginning" to be part of the procreation of our kind, just as death and rotting in the grave were not intended "in the beginning" to be our denouement.

In "Eden 1.0," before sin, true human nature flourished according to God's unimpeded postive intent: Adam and Eve were humans as humans were intended to be. This is called Original Justice: in harmony with God, with Nature, between each other, and within themselves, with no injury, whether physical, emotional, or spiritual, and no strife.

It is only after sin, and the heritable consequences of sin, that painful bloody strife came to be part of the sexual and generative mix. Think ho often in the history of womankind, childbearing has been a Monomachy between life and death. Check out the curses in Genesis 3:14-20.

It follows, as fitting, that if Jesus Christ is the New Adam, and our Lady Mary the New Eve, who, through His grace and power, helps set upright what Mother Eve had put upside down, Mary would not be subject to all the physical signs and natural consequences of sin: the things which fit together in the category of "corruption," in the sense of "tendency to dissolution, deterioration, decomposition."

So it is not that Mary is super-human. It is that she is Human; she is the Standard Model; she is of an equal nature with Original Eve. It is we who are sub-human; or if that sounds too harsh, let's say we are substandard, damaged goods. We're dingy, dinged. She's in mint condition. <> The significance of "Beata Maria Semper Virgine" (written on the catacomb walls) means that we were not meant to be broken into, or broken out of. The procreation of children was meant, in the zip code of Eden (the word means "Delight"), to be pure unblemished unadulterated joy.

38 posted on 12/24/2012 3:13:59 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (May the Lord bless you, may the Lord keep you, May He turn to you His countenance and give you peace)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Yes, I see the point. However, if Jesus were born by some process that involved His body's being, at some point, incorporeal; or Mary's body being, at some point, incorporeal; then that is, it seems to me, in contradiction with her being solely human and His being fully human.

If human beings, from creation, were to reproduce their kind, then was "birth by teleportation" to be the default arrangement? What about all the other mammals who give birth (now) by the same general means as humans? Were all their young to emerge via a process of molecular disintegration and reassembly?

Dear old Kolokotronis would doubtless be calling me rude names in Greek at this point, and mumbling about simplistic black-and-white Calvinism.

39 posted on 12/24/2012 5:33:01 PM PST by Tax-chick (If I had two dead rats, I'd give you one.)
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To: Tax-chick
I don't know about the "incorporeal" or "teleportation" process. The "how" of it is just speculation, as I understand it, not dogma.

There are fellow mammals who give birth with a lot more ease--- aren't there? Maybe the full term baby was originally designed to be smaller and, at the same time, sturdier. Like calves, who get up and totter about within hours of birth (and our babies can't walk until about a YEAR later. My Ben was 13 1/2 months before he walked!) Maybe the maternal pelvis : baby cranium ratio was supposed to be larger, the anatomical structures stretchier, and the placenta supposed to come out neat, like one of those modules in the Mars explorer.

Preternatural phenomena, by definition, perfect nature but do not carry it into the "supernatural," beyond the limits of created nature. They include three great privileges --infused knowledge, freedom from concupiscence, and bodily immortality and invulnerability --- which Adam and Eve possessed before the Fall. Like I said, I don't think "incorporeality" is dogma: but I'd LOVE to get a heapin' helpin' of those preternatural gifts.

Merry Christmas to you, dear Tax-Chick; and to Sir Rooster and all the chickadees.

40 posted on 12/24/2012 6:10:48 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (May the Lord bless you, may the Lord keep you, May He turn to you His countenance and give you peace)
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To: Tax-chick
I don't think the phrase "as sunlight through glass" means that the baby Jesus was incorporeal. His mother wasn't glass either (glass being transparent and breakable and all that).

It's just a poetic turn of phrase meaning that Jesus' birth did his mother no harm, without getting into the nitty-gritty details of labor and delivery.

Since I have known plenty of moms who gave birth with no anesthesia and very little pain (my own mom and my self among them, mom being one of the first generation of American followers of Grantley Dick-Read M.D.), I would expect that the Blessed Mother's 'childbirth experience' would be at least that good, and better.

41 posted on 12/25/2012 8:56:41 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother
It's just a poetic turn of phrase ...

Oh, that kind of thing always throws me off.

42 posted on 12/25/2012 8:59:43 AM PST by Tax-chick (Peace to people of good will.)
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To: Tax-chick
It does my husband too.

All you scientific types . . . ! on the other hand, I couldn't balance my checkbook if you held a gun to my head.

A liberal education (in the old-fashioned 'trivium' sense) is not entirely wasted. But we have divided it from the 'quadrivium', and I think both sides suffer in consequence.

43 posted on 12/25/2012 9:04:25 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother; Mrs. Don-o

I like epic poetry ... it’s all narrative and sequential and stuff ... and ballads of the Kipling or Robert Service sort, and Housemann and the War Poets. For theological matters, though, give me facts!

I have no problem with the “no pain” part: I’ve known people who had very easy deliveries, and my 6th one was pain-free until I had to push him out rear-end-first. (That was batty Pat, who turned 11 on Dec. 22.)

Merry Christmas to you and your family!


44 posted on 12/25/2012 9:33:04 AM PST by Tax-chick (Peace to people of good will.)
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To: Tax-chick
Ask any man.

I could, but I imagine that would tend to cause me to despise him, which is hardly the Christmas spirit.

I was referring to the excuse of PMS that enables the female to engage in egregious behaviour whilst excusing all of it and blaming it on the males in her life.

45 posted on 12/25/2012 12:25:13 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: AnAmericanMother
Since I have known plenty of moms who gave birth with no anesthesia and very little pain (my own mom and my self among them, mom being one of the first generation of American followers of Grantley Dick-Read M.D.), I would expect that the Blessed Mother's 'childbirth experience' would be at least that good, and better.

My wife is 4'11" and 95 pounds. She has given birth five separate times and never had anaesthetic during any of those births. Of course, I always made sure that her nails were clipped short...

46 posted on 12/25/2012 12:29:04 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

I’ve never met that female, so I’m sure it’s understandable that I thought you were talking about something totally different. The original topic, after all, was childbirth.


47 posted on 12/25/2012 2:20:32 PM PST by Tax-chick (Peace to people of good will.)
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To: Tax-chick

My bride is wonderful, attractive, and so appealing that I have to have concealed carry in order to protect her. However, she winds up irrational one week out of four and I cannot fathom it. I am a perfectly rational engineer doncha know?


48 posted on 12/26/2012 9:47:36 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

I understand. I’ve never met a man who wasn’t perfectly rational. It must be fascinating to be one.

Personally, I think rage is a perfectly rational response to bleeding buckets for a week. Perhaps if you had a catastrophic bowel problem, that would be a glimpse of what it’s like.


49 posted on 12/27/2012 3:27:13 AM PST by Tax-chick (Peace to people of good will.)
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To: Tax-chick
I understand. I’ve never met a man who wasn’t perfectly rational. It must be fascinating to be one.

And, I'm rather tall for my height.

Personally, I think rage is a perfectly rational response to bleeding buckets for a week. Perhaps if you had a catastrophic bowel problem, that would be a glimpse of what it’s like.

I've had influenza out of both ends at once. Will that qualify?

50 posted on 12/27/2012 2:16:27 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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