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The Old Testament Foretold that Mary Would Give Birth Without Pain (Catholic Caucus)
Cantaur ^ | December 22, 2012 | DR. TAYLOR MARSHALL

Posted on 12/23/2012 3:24:52 PM PST by NYer

Painting: Michaelangelo's Prophet Isaiah

Dear friends,

We are all familiar with Isaiah's well known prophecy of Christmas:

“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a Virgin shall conceive, and bear a Son and his name shall be called Emmanuel.” (Isaiah 7:14)

However, Isaiah made another (lesser known) prophecy of Christmas:

"Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a Manchild" (Isa 66:7)

This verse is the basis for the Catholic teaching that Mary experienced no pain when she delivered Christ at Bethlehem. The Roman Catechism teaches that Christ passed through her "as sunlight passes through glass."

The reason for this is that Mary is the New Eve who gives birth to the promised Savior (see Gen 3:15). As New Eve, the Blessed Virgin Mary escapes the curse of Eve - labor pains.

This might be something interesting to discuss this Christmas with family or below in the comments. Keep in mind that all the Church Fathers before AD 600 believed that Mary's delivery was painless.

TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: brokencaucus; isaiah; scripture
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1 posted on 12/23/2012 3:25:09 PM PST by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Catholic Caucus Thread


2 posted on 12/23/2012 3:27:35 PM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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To: NYer
Because Jesus was to be born of an immaculate vessel, Mary was born without the stain of Original sin.

So, because she was born sinless and without stain, she was not subject to the curse of Eve who did sin.

3 posted on 12/23/2012 3:31:25 PM PST by Slyfox (The key to Marxism is medicine - V. Lenin)
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To: bramps
So, because she was born sinless and without stain, she was not subject to the curse of Eve who did sin. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Could you politely educate me on the biblical passage that backs that statement up?

This is a teaching of the Catholic Church. Since our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ (who is Divine as well as human) would not have been born into this world by way of an unclean temple. This is why the Church teaches Mary was without original sin.

While the Bible contains the written Word of God, the Word of God also lives in the Church. (Jesus established the Church and promised that evil shall never overcome it - therefore what the Church teaches is the Word of God even if it's not in the Bible)

There are many things that are not in the Bible, but are nonetheless just as true as if they were. This is very evident in the last verses of John's Gospel.

5 posted on 12/23/2012 4:34:47 PM PST by mtg
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To: NYer

It seems like it’s always men who are very concerned about this. This fits with their general discomfort with all the natural processes of women’s bodies, not just childbirth.

7 posted on 12/23/2012 4:48:15 PM PST by Tax-chick (If I had two dead rats, I'd give you one.)
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Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

That verse is talking about “men”. God certainly could.

10 posted on 12/23/2012 5:57:31 PM PST by sigzero
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To: crosshairs

Mary’s saviour is the same as ours.

Original sin is different than personal sin, it is more like a state of being.

Also, we do not believe that an eight-month old child has, or can, sin. So the “all” in the verse cannot mean every single human being excluding none. It must therefore be a rhetorical “all.”

11 posted on 12/23/2012 5:57:36 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: NYer
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12 posted on 12/23/2012 6:06:17 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: bramps
In one word: "Kecharitomene."

In the Bible, every time a person is given a new name by God, it signifies something big: it reveals your very inner identity, what God made you to be:

Abram --> Abraham (Father of Nations)

Jacob --> Israel (Wrestles with God)

Simon BarJonah --> Peter (Rock)

The unparalleled word, spoken by an Archangel, which gave Mary a name/title indicating her true self, was (in Greek) "Kecharitomene," a name/title not used anywhere else in the Bible, nor indeed anywhere in Greek literature, as a nominative (not just an adjective). It is a past perfect passive verbal form, participle, with a feminine ending, used as a form of address: "She who was completely filled with grace."

Other Biblical persons were described as being "filled with (or full of) grace" -- as we would put it in English --- but in Mary's case, the verb form is, as I mentioned, unique: which makes sense if she is the sole person handing on a human nature to Jesus: she was his only human parent. So the human nature she handed on to Him had to be without the defective inheritance of a marred nature.

This doesn't make her superhuman. It makes her Just. Plain. Human. With the unmarred humanness that everybody would have possessed as their birthright, if human nature had not been blighted by the shattering fall of our first parents.

14 posted on 12/23/2012 6:23:41 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts. - Joe Friday)
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To: Resettozero

This is a caucus thread. Are you Catholic?

15 posted on 12/23/2012 6:52:15 PM PST by surroundedbyblue (Live the message of Fatima - pray & do penance!)
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To: Resettozero


I will take St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Ambrose of Milan, and St. Augustine, and St. Johan Damascene’s interpretation of Isiah 66:7 over yours and your local Pastor in wherever you are United States.

16 posted on 12/23/2012 7:33:42 PM PST by CTrent1564
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Comment #18 Removed by Moderator

To: Ruy Dias de Bivar; Bryan24; Resettozero

This Religion Forum thread is labeled “Catholic Caucus” meaning if you are not currently, actively Catholic - then do not post on this thread.

19 posted on 12/23/2012 8:28:08 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

Sorry, Religion Moderator. Been on FR for 10+ years, never seen a thread where religious segregation was enforced.

My apologies to the Catholics.

20 posted on 12/23/2012 9:16:55 PM PST by Bryan24 (When in doubt, move to the right..........)
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