Posted on 03/16/2013 7:33:00 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum
“It is tradition. Here is scripture discussing tradition.”
I honor Paul’s tradition, which he delivered to us in his epistles. Where does it say it is the Roman tradition, that teaches that Paul was all wrong about salvation by grace, and that we needed the Roman Church, 400 to 500 years after the fact, to set us straight?
Learn what the Greek word translated as “RATHER”” means. I explained it. It can have a contrast meaning (which you think is the plain meaning) or a ÿes but even more than that.
It’s used both ways.
I am the one doing careful word study here. In this case the word can be used in two ways,so you interpret Scripture with Scripture and that makes clear that he’s endorsing honor of his mother. Which is what the Ten Commandments tell him to do.
But see you blindly depend on your translation, which chose one of the two possible meanings of the word. Translators are traitors. In choosing to translate it as “rather” the translator took sides on this issue. Had he been honest, he’d have pointed out in a footnote that it could also mean “Yeah, sure, venerate my beloved mother but even more than that remember that all who hear and keep the word of God, like my mother does, are blessed.
There, I fixed it for you.
“Thats ALL veneration means.”
I’ll need to go grab a Rosary so I can start saying Hail Rosies (her name is Rosy) to my mother.
You wrote: “”Jesus connects the blessedness to every believer, “BUT Jesus said, yea, RATHER, blessed are they...
No
he
does
not.
You are reading that into the words. You are free to read that in. But the words themselves do not state that unambiguously. If you were to actually pore over the Scriptures and read Luke 1-2, you would read into those words in Luke 11:28: Hey, folks. My Mother is the prime example of all those who hear the word of God and keep it. She’s blessed, all of those who do what she does are blessed and so yes, venerate my mother as the Biggest Old Hearer and Keeper of the Word ever.”
Which is eggzackly what what Catholics and Orthodox and Martin Luther and John Calvin and John Wesley did.
Your quarrel is with John Wesley’s exegesis, Martin Luther’s, not with mine.
Have you ever looked into what Luther and Wesley believed about Mary?
I wrote not a word about your heart. Not one single word.
I wrote about your lack of knowledge while you claim to KNOW what this passage says.
After you’ve studied the history of the interpretation of this passage you can make a fair judgment. I have studied both sides and reached a conclusion. You reached a conclusion without studying all the information because from the beginning you assumed that the plain and obvious interpretation was the one you hold.
I
simply
pointed
out
that the Greek words and the structure of Luke and other factors make a different interpretation not only possible but by far the most plausible.
And you then accuse me of reading your heart.
I read your words and concluded you haven’t acquainted yourself with the way this passage has been interpreted.
You sound grouchy FRiend. Where does it say that? Do you believe tradition somehow ended at the council of Nicea?
We Catholics believe in salvation by grace through faith alone.
Absolutely.
The quarrel is over whether faith can be naked apart from works or whether faith always only takes place in a life of love. Whether faith without works is dead or not.
The old canard that we believe in salvation by works is false. Salvation is by faith alone but what constitutes faith, that’s the quarrel of the 16th century.
“Learn what the Greek word translated as “RATHER”” means.”
I have a Greek Lexicon at arm’s distance. It makes absolutely no difference no matter how much you repeat it. I quite frankly don’t even understand the point of your argument.
“RATHER” does not translate to “Therefore, Mary was more blessed than the Christians who would hear the word of God and obey it, and you should honor her to honor me.” That’s a lot to make one word mean.
And I did not say that Jesus refused to say His mother was blessed for giving birth to Him. RATHER, I said, that Christians are blessed, or more blessed, who hear the word of God and obey it.
“But see you blindly depend on your translation, which chose one of the two possible meanings of the word. “
Okay, let’s examine other translations:
Luke 11:28
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
28 But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it.
No difference.
Luke 11:28
Amplified Bible (AMP)
28 But He said, Blessed (happy and [a]to be envied) rather are those who hear the Word of God and obey and practice it!
It got worse for you.
Luke 11:28
Common English Bible (CEB)
28 But he said, “Happy rather are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.”
Still not seeing your goofy claims.
Luke 11:28
Darby Translation (DARBY)
28 But *he* said, Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep [it].
Yep.
Luke 11:28
English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)
28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
Even the Anglicans can’t make it sound different!
Luke 11:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it
Uhhuh.
Luke 11:28
Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)
28 And he said, `Yea, rather, happy those hearing the word of God, and keeping [it]!’
Yawn.
“Where does it say that? “
That is basically a simplified version of what I just got done asking you.
“You are reading that into the words. You are free to read that in.”
Am I going to have to do a sentence diagram and even define each word?
BLESSED, ARE, THEY.
So where’s your Roman exegesis that changes the meaning of those three words?
YOu know, that’s a cheap shot.
Scripture is where we got the “Hail Mary.” The Angel said it to Mary. We merely repeat the Angel’s words combined with Elizabeth’s words to her, then we ask Mary to join us in prayer and to pray for us.
She is a Christian. Mary is the first to believe in Christ. She is my sister in Christ. I ask my brother and sister Christians to pray for my needs.
That’s all we do.
I shake the dust off my feet.
Look at the meaning of veneration from the first few centuries and what it means in Greek or Latin and you'll at least have a clue about what you're talking about. Until then, it's no different than calling the “Gay Nineties” a time when Victorian style homes were popular and queers were all the rage. IOW, it just shows how ignorant and foolish the person making the accusation is.
I gave it to you in detail. When you read and consider what I wrote, we can talk.
Until then, enjoy your self-referential world.
As a southern baptist i have a hard time understanding what this has to do with salvation
Or robe colors
Or capes
He seems like a far right Jesuit
Somebody willing to purge this body of apostate queerdom
I pray so...a strong diligent Catholic church that enforces scripture on it’s Faithful helps all of us
Regardless, He is short one lung and is 76 years old. My Father-in-law emphatically states that every day after 75 is a bonus. So, I have a feeling that a one lunged, 76 year old who has spent his life in dedicated Corporal Works of Mercy MAY, just MAY have a little difficulty on the recovery from a genuflect.
I am half his age and sometimes have trouble!
Much Obliged for your edification, and bienvenidos a FreeRepublic.
Philippians 2:5-11
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
5 For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man.
8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.
9 For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names:
10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:
11 And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.
And you can research it on Wiki: handy!
Quote
Genuflection to the Blessed Sacrament, especially when arriving or leaving its presence, is a practice in the Anglican Communion, the Latin Rite Catholic Church, and the Lutheran Church.It is a comparatively modern replacement for the profound bow of head and body that remains the supreme act of liturgical reverence in the East.
Only during the later Middle Ages, centuries after it had become customary to genuflect to persons in authority such as bishops, was genuflection to the Blessed Sacrament introduced. The practice gradually spread and became viewed as obligatory only from the end of the fifteenth century, receiving formal recognition in 1502. The raising of the consecrated Host and Chalice after the Consecration in order to show them to the people was for long unaccompanied by obligatory genuflections.
The requirement that genuflection take place on both knees before the Blessed Sacrament when it is unveiled as at Expositions (but not when it is lying on the corporal during Mass)was altered in 1973 with introduction of the following rule: “Genuflection in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, whether reserved in the tabernacle or exposed for public adoration, is on one knee.”
The General Instruction of the Roman Missal lays down the following rules for genuflections during Mass:
Three genuflections are made by the priest celebrant: namely, after the showing of the host, after the showing of the chalice, and before Communion. Certain specific features to be observed in a concelebrated Mass are noted in their proper place.
If, however, the tabernacle with the Most Blessed Sacrament is present in the sanctuary, the priest, the deacon, and the other ministers genuflect when they approach the altar and when they depart from the sanctuary, but not during the celebration of Mass itself.
Otherwise all who pass before the Most Blessed Sacrament genuflect, unless they are moving in procession.
Ministers carrying the processional cross or candles bow their heads instead of genuflecting.
“YOu know, that’s a cheap shot.”
How’s it cheap? You said that the Roman veneration of Mary is the same one due to our own mothers and fathers.
“That’s all we do.”
Really?
CCC par. 2675, “Beginning with Mary’s unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries...”
She cooperates with the Holy Spirit uniquely?
CCC 969, “Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”
She’s the mediatrix!? I thought we only had ONE Mediator between God and men, Jesus Christ.
1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
CCC 721, “Mary, the all-holy ever-virgin Mother of God, is the masterwork of the mission of the Son and the Spirit in the fullness of time....Mary is acclaimed and represented in the liturgy as the “Seat of Wisdom.”
The seat of wisdom!?
CCC 966, “Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.” You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.”
She is the queen of all things and even delivers our souls from death?
CCC, 2030, “It is in the Church, in communion with all the baptized, that the Christian fulfills his vocation...From the Church he learns the example of holiness and recognizes its model and source in the all-holy Virgin Mary...”
Mary the model of holiness??
So, doesn’t look like y’all are just praying to her, as you would anybody else. (Umm, why are you praying to PEOPLE again instead of God directly? And where is any of this justified in the scripture?)
I also wonder how Mary, who is but a human being, is able to hear and process the prayers of billions of Catholics without receiving the attributes of God? That is, omnipresence or omniscience?
“I gave it to you in detail.”
You gave me a confused and nonsensical argument.
My heart was never the subject, by my post. Your assumption is misguided. As far as Luther, Wesley, you and countless others- keep guessing for the blessing. God ain’t gonna let ya down... not ever
You might really benefit from attending RCIA. Here is more useful info..
So, how does the contemporary reader learn from Isaiah? Two simple lessons come to mind. First, God fulfills his word. In Isaiah, the LORD foretells many events and they come to pass. Through Isaiah, the LORD speaks of destruction and judgment, but also of salvation and redemption. On all counts, he delivers. Therefore, we can trust in his word for he is always faithful. Second, God’s plan incorporates all mankind. Many times in the book of Isaiah, the prophet speaks of a jubilant day when all nations will come to worship the LORD at Jerusalem, on Mt. Zion (cf. 25, 66). This awesome day of feasting and celebration is the goal toward which all history tends. In the end, God wins and we share in his victory. From a Christian perspective, this goal is won by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the true son of David and root of Jesse (11:1).
Isaiah’s prophecies are so important for the NT that some of the church fathers referred to him as the first evangelist. The key passages regarding Jesus are about the virgin birth (7:14), the coming of Immanuel (9:1-7), the sprouting of the root of Jesse (11), the suffering servant (53-55) and the mission of the Messiah (61).
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.