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‘Your God Is My God’: Beck Delivers Speech Before Jewish Politicians, Knesset
The Blaze ^

Posted on 07/11/2011 11:45:12 AM PDT by lbryce

Glenn Beck was given a unique opportunity on Monday while visiting Israel: he delivered a rousing speech before the Jewish version of congress, called the Knesset.

“Where you go, I shall go, Your people is my people, your God is my God,” Beck said, quoting the book of Ruth while addressing the Knesset Immigration, Absorption and Diaspora Affairs Committee.

“As a man who also worships the one God, in the times that we live in, it is clear that what is going on is God’s work. If we are silent, evil will win. But if we stand up and take charge, God will do the rest,” he added, according to the Jerusalem Post.

He also encouraged members to reach out to those of other faiths:

“If you go to a synagogue, reach out to a church. If you go to a church, reach out to a JCC. Say, will you watch this with me? After that we’ll talk and eat and get to know one another.”

(Excerpt) Read more at theblaze.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Israel; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: beck; glennbeck; israel; lds; mormon
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To: lbryce

Glenn Beck is a national treasure, one of the greatest men in America today, a man who not only sees what so many here on Free Republic see, but uses his passion and talents and faith and patriotism to get the word out about the forces of evil that are surrounding the free world.

Beck is the real deal. He deserves thunderous applause for enlightening so many with history lessons that teach what America is - like Israel and the Jewish people, she a light unto the nations under attack by a scourge of evil that wants to destroy the light. I don’t care whether he’s Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Taoist or Muslim.

This man has taken the best there is to offer from the world’s wisdom and has evolved to a high level of knowledge and sensitivity since his days of light banter. It is because he is such a worthy challenger to the lies of extremists that the Communist Left work so hard to make up lies in hopes of removing him from public view. Their plan is boomeranging, since people are hungry to the information and inspiration that Beck has given the American public.


101 posted on 07/12/2011 1:35:42 AM PDT by Seeing More Clearly Now (From 1963 Congressional Record http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm)
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To: hwkbeer

“But it still begs to question why the Church leadership did nothing to help the Jews.”

IN DEFENCE OF PIUS XII & HIS AID TO THE JEWS

By Rabbi David Dalin

Pius XII Saved More Jews than Schindler, says Historian Rabbi David Dalin

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/judaism/dalin.htm


102 posted on 07/12/2011 2:41:02 AM PDT by Mila
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To: hwkbeer

“But not one will answer a question I posed.Very curious indeed.”

Here is a discussion on the subject of which you are interested. It may not satisfy you, but it might give you a little more insight on the subject from the Catholic prospective.

How Can a Priest Forgive Sin?

By Kenneth J. Howell

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0301sbs.asp


103 posted on 07/12/2011 2:52:06 AM PDT by Mila
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To: Mila
Very helpful.Thank you.I've a lot to learn on this subject.I want to forgive those who thought themselves superior,offering no help only condemnation.
104 posted on 07/12/2011 4:07:32 AM PDT by hwkbeer (I will pursue my enemy and not stop till I consume him.)
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To: blasater1960

Same God. No heresy.

In order to understand, do not relinquish your love for God, but remember your love for Him is to be a sacrificial love, not an adversarial reproaching judgment of what He provides.

God Bless.


105 posted on 07/12/2011 4:29:18 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Zathras

Hitler was NOT a Christian.There is much to be said of our abandonment of the Jew. Pastor John Hagee of Texas-and others have opened my eyes to this. There may well have been Christians who sent Jews to the gas chambers but I would wager to say they were Christian in name only. Remember Jesus of Nazareth that Rabbi form Nazareth and most ,if not all of His disciples were JEWISH. That doctrine Jesus taught of His Father was decidedly Hebrew.And the sound doctrine of the
New Testament -that of the man known as Paul who was Saul of Tarsus was that of a Pharisee.And the men who wrote the New
Testament were Jewish. They taught in the synagogue. Now they may not have been Babylonian -may not have been Jerusalem-but they were NOT Greeks.And I’ve no time for BIGOTS no matter who they claim to follow.


106 posted on 07/12/2011 4:35:19 AM PDT by StonyBurk (ring)
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To: hwkbeer

The Nazi were aligned with the slaves of Allah as well.Even had a Division or two that were Muslim. But we do agree that they were ,for the most part...Not Christian- but a Party determined to destroy the Church.And the Confessing Church though persecuted and reviled -the true church was Not destroyed by the Evil known as the third Reich.


107 posted on 07/12/2011 4:39:37 AM PDT by StonyBurk (ring)
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To: RJS1950
the Constitution allows all of us to believe and practice as we see fit

No, the Constitution prevents Congress from establishing an official Church of the United States.

108 posted on 07/12/2011 5:09:50 AM PDT by ROCKLOBSTER (Celebrate "Republicans Freed the Slaves Month")
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To: ROCKLOBSTER

Unbelievable! It prevents the government from setting up a state religion which along with freedom of speech guarantees us the right to practice and believe as we will. It does not give citizens outside of the government the right to dictate or limit the beliefs or practices of others. It’s a small, other than Christian mind that will denigrate another’s belief in God or Christ because their beliefs are not the same as yours.


109 posted on 07/12/2011 6:45:29 AM PDT by RJS1950 (The democrats are the "enemies foreign and domestic" cited in the federal oath)
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
Congratulations!

Why....thank you! You do see clearly!

...one God, no intermediaries, no helpers, no translators, no intercessors, no split shifts, no messengers, no relatives, no hanging out in human or animal or plant bodily form. He does not desire us to shrink our conception of him to one of human form. Just because we are created in the image of God does not mean that we have to reverse engineer God into human form.

Brilliant...that would be my new tag line if it werent so long.....no split shifts...love it.

110 posted on 07/12/2011 8:28:32 AM PDT by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
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To: llandres
Glenn was simply telling them that he and many millions of us support them and are still loyal to Israel.

That is all he needed to say. Not the passage in Ruth where she converts to Judaism. Beck is twice removed from the truth of the Holy Scriptures. I am glad he is supporting Israel in a big way. I wish more of our high profile Christian friends like Rush, or Hannity or Politicians would have taken the leadership on this issue.

Better yet, I wish our Jewish leaders would have done it....

111 posted on 07/12/2011 8:38:37 AM PDT by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
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To: Cvengr
Same God. No heresy.

My dear FRiend. You can say that all day long...but it doesnt make it so.

Did you not read the post? If G-d were a multiplicity of persons He would have said so...clearly...plainly...directly. At Mt Sinai, it was a National Revelation. He said...I HAVE NO FORM.

For Christianity to then 1500 years later say...guess what! G-d has a form! He is this god-man hybrid! Now...you must believe in him or else! Oh, and there is a 3rd person you must believe in too...god the holy spirit! And you must pray in the god-mans name! You must celebrate him by eating his flesh and drinking his blood! (just pretend though...unless your Catholic)....etc...etc

That makes G-d out to be a treacherous...duplicitous, liar. (G-d forbid). To give a nation a law they cant follow after telling them they can (Deut 30)....Tell them the Law is forever (Psalm 111 and many other places) when it is not forever...To tell this nation He is alone...when He is really three....To require no faith in a messiah for salvation...then to require it? What kind of god is that? It is not the G-d of my forefathers, not the G-d of the Jewish Bible...It is the god and god-man of the Grecco-Roman culture.

G-d Bless

112 posted on 07/12/2011 8:56:36 AM PDT by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
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To: Robulus; hwkbeer
The pope cannot forgive sins....that is blasphemy. The pope, and all of those preceding him are in fact anti-Christs.

Ok... thank you for your opinion. Would you like to tell me where my appeal to Scripture is wrong in post #65?

113 posted on 07/12/2011 9:04:52 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: itsahoot; hwkbeer
The presumption is that Peter was given great powers and they reside in whomever the church decides to pass them to.

Presumption?! Rather than presuming, how about we consult Scripture on the matter (I'll use the KJV to keep us on equal footing)...

Matt 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Our Lord is speaking directly to Simon Barjona here and changes his name to "Peter" which means "rock". He then makes this rock (and, metaphysically, his testamony of faith) a firm anchor for His Church. Some argue that Jesus is not calling Peter "rock" but that is false as there is only one word for rock in Aramaic and it is used both as the identifier and the object.

Note that in addition to his commission to ground the Church, Peter is also given a very specific gift in the "keys to the kingdom of heaven". To understand this, we have to first remember that Jesus is the Son of David, heir to King David's throne. If it were not so, God's covenant to David was not fulfilled. We have been given a model of the governance of the Davidic kingdom in the Old Testament:

Isaiah 22:15 Thus saith the Lord GOD of hosts, Go, get thee unto this treasurer, even unto Shebna, which is over the house, and say, 16 What hast thou here? and whom hast thou here, that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here, as he that heweth him out a sepulchre on high, and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock? 17 Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. 18 He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. 19 And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down. 20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah: 21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. 22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. 23 And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house. 24 And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the issue, all vessels of small quantity, from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons.

You see two things here... first, the keys of the House of David represent the authority of the Prime Minister. There are many ministers to administer the kingdom but the Prime Minister bears the authority of the keys. These keys represent the authority of the king. The second thing one should note is that the authority of the office is transferrable. When one no longer occupies the office a new Prime Minister is chosen to replace him.

114 posted on 07/12/2011 9:28:53 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: itsahoot
There is no greater barrier to the truth, than the belief that you already have it.

Amen.

115 posted on 07/12/2011 9:29:54 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: golux
Before Christ walked in Jerusalem, God gave us a glimpse of Himself through Isaiah...

Isaiah 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. 13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together. 14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans. 15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

God goes to great lengths in these passages to make it clear that He is speaking firsthand. God is the speaker and yet the speaker has been sent forth by God and His Spirit. It is a great mystery... but your beef is with Him... we simply take Him at His Word.

116 posted on 07/12/2011 9:43:29 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: blasater1960
I offer you post #116 in reply.
117 posted on 07/12/2011 9:45:44 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
one God, no intermediaries (prophets?), no helpers (angels?), no translators (Rabbis?), no intercessors (Levitical priests?), no split shifts (Isaiah 48), no messengers (angels and prophets?), no relatives (Ex 4:22, Isaiah 54, et al?), no hanging out in human or animal or plant bodily form (Gen 18).

Some rants just don't pass the smell test...

118 posted on 07/12/2011 9:56:00 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: blasater1960
That makes G-d out to be a treacherous...duplicitous, liar. (G-d forbid).

No, it shows how God has revealed Himself throughout history. Christ came in the fullness of time... when the world was ripe for the harvest. The Holy Trinity in no way diminishes God nor contradicts Scripture. It our finite understanding of an infinite reality.

To give a nation a law they cant follow after telling them they can (Deut 30)....Tell them the Law is forever (Psalm 111 and many other places) when it is not forever

The Law is forever... but that is the Law of God given on Sinai. The Mosaic Law of Deuteronomy was a yolk placed on a stiff-necked people for their reproof. The yolk was lifted by Christ on the Cross. The Law of God is forever.

To tell this nation He is alone...when He is really three

He is alone... and yet He is three in one. It is a great mystery that has been revealed, not invented. You clearly come from a Jewish tradition so appealing to Christ's Words in the New Testament will not open your eyes... however, Christ opened the eyes of the blind and told the lame to walk so that the Jewish people of His day would come to see that the Messiah had come. These were the things they were expecting. That is why Jesus replied thus to John the Baptist when he asked if Jesus was the one they were waiting for. The miracles were to show them His Power and Authority and His Sacrifice was the sacrificial offering of the New Covenant promised by God at our exit from the Garden of Eden.

To require no faith in a messiah for salvation...then to require it?

What kind of salvation do you mean? The Jewish people have long-awaited their Messiah... what would you do when you meet Him? Ignore Him because your faith is only in God? God is the One Who sends the Messiah for our salvation... how can there be salvation without faith in the One He sent?!

What kind of god is that? It is not the G-d of my forefathers, not the G-d of the Jewish Bible.

The Church thrives because our history is rooted in the promises to Abraham and it is unbroken. When the Apostles preached Christ to the world, they went first to Jew and then to Gentile. The reason for this is because the Jews were the first born to be reborn in their Messiah. The primary method used to convert the Jews was their own Scripture. When understood, all of history and all of Scripture proclaims Christ. Seek and you will find.

May God bless you.

119 posted on 07/12/2011 10:14:23 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: blasater1960

I don’t think Beck was trying to speak in theological terms in quoting Ruth. He seems to have been looking for an image that would express that he wants the Jewish people and the world and the almighty to know that he understands that Judaism and the Jewish people remain the source and strength for all the teachings of ethical monotheism.

The almighty works in mysterious ways.


120 posted on 07/12/2011 10:26:10 AM PDT by Seeing More Clearly Now (From 1963 Congressional Record http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm)
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To: pgyanke; blasater1960

Smell test? This discussion demonstrates that in this continuing debate it all depends who’s doing the smelling and whether ex post facto stiffs can be relied upon. If they can be, then what is called the “New Testament” is likewise open to new sniffing and a “Newer Improved Testament” and then an “Even Newer and More Improved Testament,” etc could and should logically be in the offing.


121 posted on 07/12/2011 10:50:28 AM PDT by Seeing More Clearly Now (From 1963 Congressional Record http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm)
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
If they can be, then what is called the “New Testament” is likewise open to new sniffing and a “Newer Improved Testament” and then an “Even Newer and More Improved Testament,” etc could and should logically be in the offing.

History doesn't support your assumption. There have been new translations, and new understandings of old mysteries... but then, that simply shows the Wisdom of God in giving the Church a Magisterium to teach and to hold the doctrines and Scriptures firm. Although the Catholic Church is formed of men and men have a tendency to abuse and corruption which must be dealt with from time to time, the doctrines and dogma of the Church have not wavered in 2,000 years. We study the same Scripture the early Church Fathers studied.

To those outside the Church, the New Testament seems to be something invented. However, closer examination shows it to be seamless with the Old Testament. The Church studies Scripture through typology which shows that the New Covenant is promised in the Old, and the Old is fulfilled in the New. Typology shows us that passing from the Old to the New is more than just turning the page from Malachi to Matthew. It shows us how Jesus' coming, in the fullness of time, represents the hinge of history — world history and personal history, your life and mine. Typology is not just a literary device, not just an interpretive key to a difficult book. Typology means something intimate for all of us, our movement from servitude to sonship, from time to eternity, from the natural to the supernatural, from earth to heaven . . . from our Creator to our Father. (the last part was borrowed from Scott Hahn)

A real understanding of the promises of God, revealed in Christ and carried forward in the Church, would clearly demonstrate the absurdity of your logical proposition.

122 posted on 07/12/2011 11:06:59 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: pgyanke
(I'll use the KJV to keep us on equal footing)...

Sure you will.

Read a book like " Woman Rides the Beast" then get back to me.

Truth is I can tell you Beck was misquoted since I watched his statement today, he was not making a reference to himself, but to all those around the world that supported Israel, which was a collective we.

123 posted on 07/12/2011 11:22:21 AM PDT by itsahoot (Fair warning--I will vote for Palin, if I have to write her in. --He that hath an ear, let him hear.)
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To: pgyanke
16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

A) That is not a good translation of the Hebrew. This is better. מֵעֵת הֱיוֹתָהּ, שָׁם אָנִי; וְעַתָּה, אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה שְׁלָחַנִי--וְרוּחוֹ. {פ}

That is the way it is written in the Hebrew. The last word is ruach- spirit, and second to the last word is shalach-to send me...put it together you have:

16....and now, the Lord God has sent me, and His spirit. טז. 17. So said the Lord, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, "I am the Lord your God, Who teaches you for your profit, Who leads you by the way you should go.

IN CONTEXT, the person speaking changes, this is something that Isaiah does on several occasions. And remember, in the original Isaiah, there are no verses and chapters, so it makes more contextual sense when you incluse verse 17. So, verse 16 is Isaiah speaking of himself...The LORD G-d has sent me (Isaiah) and his spirit (of prophecy).

B) Your rendering is also poor hermeneutics. A person must use passages in the light ie clear, to shed understanding on those that may not be so clear. At least a dozen times in Isaiah alone, G-d say he is alone, no other, no other savior. So, then why try to use a passage like 48:16 and twist the content to shoe-horn a meaning not there and create doctrine? If you simply take him at his word as you claim, you would rest upon the dozens of clear passsages where G-d says he is a perfect, solitary unity. ANY other attempt to create doctrine of a composite god stands against G-d.

124 posted on 07/12/2011 11:24:30 AM PDT by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
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To: MHGinTN
(the Newark Stones ring a bell, to name one)

I had to look that one up, didn't remember it, but I guess I took it as a shot at historical oddity, guess it could have been an attempt to introduce Mormon propaganda into the discussion.

Remember when during the Clinton administration they unearthed a very old body and it turned out to be caucasian. They covered the site and made a protected area to prevent any further excavation. Guess I assigned it to that category.

125 posted on 07/12/2011 11:27:30 AM PDT by itsahoot (Fair warning--I will vote for Palin, if I have to write her in. --He that hath an ear, let him hear.)
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To: blasater1960
You chose an interesting place to begin your translation. Why don't you start at the beginning of verse 16 (as noted in my post) and show who is speaking those words. Again, from the 12th verse on, God is taking great pains to make it very clear Who is speaking these words.

Another interesting note... I'm not a fan of KJV because of its obvious translation errors. I tend to use it posting here because of other FReepers reverence for it. I do that to keep the discussion theological rather than translational. I used it in my post to you out of habit. Sorry about that. The Catholic translations (i.e. Douay-Rheims) translated the passages correctly. Here is the excerpt:

16 Come ye near unto me, and hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning: from the time before it was done, I was there, and now the Lord God hath sent me, and his spirit.

This is reflected in the New Testament:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Yes, throughout Isaiah and other places God says we have no other savior. Yet, this passage makes it clear that there is more to the story. God swore by Himself that He would save His people, Israel. Such an oath has blessings for fulfillment and curse for not. In swearing this oath, He knew that He would die on the Cross to redeem mankind in a way that man could not do for himself. He accepted the curse of the oath on our behalf and became the sacrificial offering of the New Covenant.

By the way, the Hebraic writing was cool.

126 posted on 07/12/2011 11:54:54 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: pgyanke
No, it shows how God has revealed Himself throughout history. Christ came in the fullness of time...

The revelation of G-ds nature and His law ended at Sinai. Any other revelation of G-ds nature would make G-d out to breaking His own Torah, a liar, changing His mind and his word untrustworthy...think about it! The Jewish nation trusted in the reliability of the word of G-d for 1,500 years after Sinai and then G-d changes the plan? All of the instances of G-d in the Tanach (OT) suddenly become Christophanies? Theophanies of a trinity? (G-d forbid). Progressive revelation of the church is heresy.

The yolk was lifted by Christ on the Cross. The Law of God is forever.

There is not one verse in all of Jewish Scripture (OT) that says that messiah will end the law or do it for us. Your view of the law is disgraceful. Read Psalm 119! 176 verses, the longest in the whole bible. The subject? THE BEAUTY OF THE LAW. Did David think the law was a curse? NO. He delighted in the law. He did the law to the best of his ability, out of LOVE OF G-D! To say the law is a curse, like the apostle Paul did, is to spit in the face of G-d. It is not yoke for a stiff necked people. It is a means of loving G-d, communing with G-d and repairing the world. Elevating the physical things of this world to the spiritual.

...however, Christ opened the eyes of the blind and told the lame to walk so that the Jewish people of His day would come to see that the Messiah had come. These were the things they were expecting.

No, miracles are NEVER specified as a means of identifying messiah ben David. What is? The ingathering of the exiles...World peace...Univeral knowlege of G-d..the restoration of the Davidic line..The rebuilding of the Temple...Restoration of the Priesthood and sacrifices...

The temple still stood at the time of Chrst, the world has become much more bloody including the inquisition, crusades, pogroms and the holocaust, collectively slaughtering millions of Jews, millions of non-Jews. The Jewish scriptures NEVER teach a second coming. No do-overs. No 2,000 year pause. It will be accomplished within one generation, one lifetime.

What kind of salvation do you mean? The Jewish people have long-awaited their Messiah... what would you do when you meet Him? Ignore Him because your faith is only in God? God is the One Who sends the Messiah for our salvation... how can there be salvation without faith in the One He sent?!

The Jewish people have ALWAYS had salvation through faith in HaShem..G-d, by his grace. or as we say chessed, kindness. There is NO NEED for a messiah savior. All men are responsible for their own sin (Ezek 18), we have means of forgiveness through prayer, repentance and others. Again, not ONE verse that says salvation comes through a faith in a messiah. Not one.

The Church thrives because our history is rooted in the promises to Abraham and it is unbroken.

On the contrary, the church broke it. The chruch thrives because it is a Grecco-Romanized form of Judaism. Gentiles are only required to keep the seven laws of Noah. The first of course being belief in the G-d of Abraham. The church makes it a 3-in-1 composite, with the son being a god-man, 100%man, 100%god, which actually puts humanity in the godhead. Heresy. A bi-natured god? 4 personalities? 3 divine and 1 non-divine? G-d forbid.

May God bless you. And you FRiend.

127 posted on 07/12/2011 12:21:07 PM PDT by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
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To: pgyanke

Typology as an intellectual method of studying written and redacted oral Jewish law. Jesus, who was raised in a kosher home, lived and died a Jew and had no intention of starting a new religion, learned and transmitted what was taught to him in the approach of his Jewish teachers.

Secular explication of secular literary texts as an approach to appreciation of the written word is an offshoot of biblical explication. None of this mixing and matching of words, moreover from translations of translations, is proof positive that God begat a Jewish man.

I respect your strong belief. Having grown up in an area with a very large and strong Catholic population, I deeply mourn the weakening of attendance and belief in the Catholic Church in America as evidenced by the wholesale closure of parishes and Catholic parochial schools. This phenomenon is weakening the fabric of society. Please extend the same feeling for your Jewish brethren as they, too, are accosted by the onslaught of secularists and religious fanatics who hate anyone who does not believe as they do.


128 posted on 07/12/2011 1:02:50 PM PDT by Seeing More Clearly Now
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To: blasater1960
The revelation of G-ds nature and His law ended at Sinai.

Clearly this isn't the case! How many prophets came to bring God's Word to His people after Sinai? The Wisdom of Solomon opened many eyes to the revelation of God through his poetry and Proverbs. As of Sinai, the story had been written as far as Exodus... why continue writing if there is no further revelation? Your position here is completely illogical and ahistorical.

Progressive revelation of the church is heresy.

Progressive revelation, as discussed above, is the only way it's ever been done!

There is not one verse in all of Jewish Scripture (OT) that says that messiah will end the law or do it for us.

In the time of the Messiah, all sacrifices would end... except for one; the Todah (Praise and Thanksgiving) offering. This means that the sacrifices of the Mosaic Law do come to an end in Jewish understanding. At no time did I say one word against the Law of God, nor would I say a word against the Law of Moses. You simply fail to see the distinction. The Law of Moses is Deuteronomy ("Second Law"). Where the Law of God was given by God Himself, the failure of the Israelites to keep the Covenant brought about a separation wherein God instructed Moses to give the Law to the people. This Deuteronomy ("Second Law") was man's law through Moses, yet in doing God's Will for His people. It was given to the Israelites to raise them up and train them for holiness. Yes, it elevates the physical things of this world to the spiritual... it was given so that the Israelites would stop yearning for their Egyptian idols and truly worship God.

No, miracles are NEVER specified as a means of identifying messiah ben David. What is?

The ingathering of the exiles... Israel is God's first-born among the nations. The exiles include all of mankind reconciled to God through the New Covenant. Don't forget that one of the promises to Abraham was that all the world would be blessed through his line. The Evangelists, Matthew and Luke, go to great pains to show Christ's lineage back to Abraham so the Jews could recognize the fulfillment of this promise.

World peace... God and man are reconciled. As the angels sang at the birth of Christ... "and peace to men of good will on Earth." The peace of Christ is our rebirth to the family life of God... our restoration of our heavenly inheritance. You make the same mistake as Jesus's contemporaries who only saw the Messiah through temporal eyes. The great peace the world lacked was its division from our Heavenly Father.

Universal knowledge of G-d... This knowledge has come into the world. Yet, our conversation shows that not all are willing to grasp its nature. You say that there is no progressive revelation of God... and yet, we wouldn't have universal knowledge of God until the Messiah came. You said there is no further revelation since Sinai and yet here you reference further revelation. I hope you can recognize the inconsistency! This has occurred!

the restoration of the Davidic line... King David was promised an everlasting dynasty and an Heir Who will rule forever. The only One Who possibly fulfills this promise is the everlasting Christ the King. He is called "Son of David" for a reason!

The rebuilding of the Temple... At the time that Christ walked the Earth, the Temple had been rebuilt. We take it a step further, though. You have to recognize what the Temple represented... it represented the Cosmos to the Jewish people. It was a physical representation of all things, right up to the Holy of Holies, God's Throne. After Christ, the veil was torn and the Temple destroyed. There is a new Heaven and new Earth indwelt by the Holy Spirit promised of Christ to His Church.

Restoration of the Priesthood and sacrifices... Do I even need to comment on this one from the Catholic perspective?

You listed out some of the basic tenets of the Catholic faith. We recognize our ancestors in Faith in the Jews. Those who remain Jewish today have failed to recognize the fulfillment of these promises in Christ.

129 posted on 07/12/2011 1:39:06 PM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
Jesus, who was raised in a kosher home, lived and died a Jew and had no intention of starting a new religion...

I disagree with you.

Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I respect your strong belief. Having grown up in an area with a very large and strong Catholic population, I deeply mourn the weakening of attendance and belief in the Catholic Church in America as evidenced by the wholesale closure of parishes and Catholic parochial schools. This phenomenon is weakening the fabric of society. Please extend the same feeling for your Jewish brethren as they, too, are accosted by the onslaught of secularists and religious fanatics who hate anyone who does not believe as they do.

Please do not take my posts here as any sign of disrespect. Rather, it is entirely the opposite. I wish that all of God's children could show the tenacity of the Jewish people in holding on to their ways. We see the revelations of God from a different perspective... but I respect the Jewish identity and will fight to keep you from a recurrence of the harms your people have suffered in history.

130 posted on 07/12/2011 1:48:25 PM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: pgyanke
Clearly this isn't the case! How many prophets came to bring God's Word to His people after Sinai? The Wisdom of Solomon opened many eyes to the revelation of God through his poetry and Proverbs. As of Sinai, the story had been written as far as Exodus... why continue writing if there is no further revelation? Your position here is completely illogical and ahistorical.

My dear FRiend... I didnt say the canon closed at Sinai. Or that that prophets didnt have important things to relate to mankind, in particular, the success and failures of the Jewish people. What I said was, G-ds nature and Law were completed at Sinai. The Prophets and Writings give us no new Law or no new understanding of G-ds nature, essense, being. And up until about 30AD, ALL readers of the Tanach (OT) had zero thought of G-d being anything but as described in the Tanach. Deut 4:15, having NO FORM...with a warning...do not give Him a form of anykind, whether on Earth or in Heaven...

Progressive revelation, as discussed above, is the only way it's ever been done!

Yes, however, did Adam believe in one G-d? Noah? Abraham? Moses..David..Hezekiah...all the way to Malachi. One G-d. No physical being. Yes, there has been a progressive revelation of Law. Not of G-ds nature or essence. That it is why I can say with the utmost truth...the nature and law of G-d did not change after Sinai.

Remember...this is important...it was a national revelation. Not a blinding experience of one man on the road to Damascus. The entire nation experienced it. Why? Because that is when G-d Almighty gave the law...revealed Himself...in writing and spoke to them out of the fire....once for all time, to the entire population. It would not be subject to believing one persons so-called "vision"...because ALL saw it and ALL heard it. Never again after that has there EVER been a national revelation. The words of the law were given for ALL TIME. NEVER to change, never to be overthrown by a "law of messiah". Not one scripture says so.

In the time of the Messiah, all sacrifices would end

Please provide scriptural evidence. If this were true, the Jewish people would have been told in the Tanach (OT). It doesnt exist.

At no time did I say one word against the Law of God, nor would I say a word against the Law of Moses.

You said: "The Mosaic Law of Deuteronomy was a yolk placed on a stiff-necked people for their reproof."

That is just not true. The law was given as I mentioned before... FOR THE JEWS (Gentiles only seven laws of Noah) to fulfill a relationship with G-d, be light unto the nations, repair a sick world, fulfills G-ds purpose on earth, elevate the physical to the spiritual.

You havent provided one scripture that says the Mosaic law will be discarded leaving only a law of G-d. As I pointed out before even outside the Torah, it is stated the law is forever. Ps 111 and others.

Yes, the Jewish people have blown it under the law and perverted it. That is the message of the prophets! Especially the minor prophets....They were reformers who warned the Jewish people...of the consequences and sure enough we got got exiled big-time. But never...ever is there a replacement theology. On the contrary!

Ezek 36:22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.

24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

Likwise Isaiah Says:

2: 2 In the last days the mountain of the LORD’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. 3 Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

And Jeremiah says:

19 O LORD, my strength and my fortress, My refuge in the day of affliction, The Gentiles shall come to You From the ends of the earth and say, “ Surely our fathers have inherited lies, Worthlessness and unprofitable things.” 20 Will a man make gods for himself, Which are not gods? 21 “ Therefore behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know My hand and My might; And they shall know that My name is the LORD

My name is the LORD, in Hebrew, "yud hey vav hey" the unspeakable name of G-d. HaShem---The Name. Not Jesus...Not the son of G-d...not the Trinity. The entire world will know that "yud hay vav hey" is it. Nothing else. Fini.

Nice chatting you BTW...

131 posted on 07/12/2011 2:50:00 PM PDT by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
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To: blasater1960
Nice chatting you BTW...

Same here! I'm in my garage on my iPhone. Home time is family time. I'll pick this back up tomorrow. God bless you!

132 posted on 07/12/2011 3:04:40 PM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: Zathras

Nazis were not Christians. They were Pagans and hated Christianity and the church.
OTOH, Muslims and Muslim nations sided with Hitler against the Allies in WWII


133 posted on 07/12/2011 3:06:22 PM PDT by Cincinna ( *** NOBAMA 2012 ***)
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To: pgyanke

You zealous but scripturally ignorant Roman Catholics are so predictable. Strain at a gnat and swllow a camel.
John 20:21 is given by Christ as an apostolic imperative. Simply stated, it was intended FOR the apostles of the Lord, but, as with all scripture, to us for our learning and study. Go ahead and perform some of the miracles Christ gave THEM power to do in those same passages: for THEM, not you nor your unholy father in Rome. 2Pet.3:15-16
2Tim.2:15


134 posted on 07/12/2011 3:54:05 PM PDT by Robulus (Be wary, be vigilant, for your enemy walketh about as a roaring lion.)
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To: pgyanke
The ingathering of the exiles... Israel is God's first-born among the nations. The exiles include all of mankind reconciled to God through the New Covenant. Don't forget that one of the promises to Abraham was that all the world would be blessed through his line. The Evangelists, Matthew and Luke, go to great pains to show Christ's lineage back to Abraham so the Jews could recognize the fulfillment of this promise.

Part 2...

The exiled would be Jewish...no other peoples are described as such. People have always had access to G-d through the Jewish scriptures. Gentiles through the covenant of Noah. The Mosaic covenant for Jews (or those wishing to convert). Through the children of Abraham the Jewish Scriptures were written and the people of the world blessed through them.

Both Matthew and Lukes lineages are fatally flawed. Matthew has him coming through the cursed King Jeconiah, whose children were forbidden to ever sit on the throne of David and be King. Luke has him coming through Nathan and not Solomon. The Davidic line has to go through Solomon. So both are fatally flawed. Not to mention, Tribal affiliation ONLY comes through the father. If Jesus had no biological father, he could not have ANY tribal affiliation. He can not get it from his mother or through adoption by his father.

World peace... God and man are reconciled.

World peace means no more wars. Are you saying Abraham was not reconciled? Moses? David? Hezekiah? Are you saying G-d set us up to fail? Gave us original sin, free will and then an impossible law to follow thereby needing to kill his human son (himself)(Human sacrifice is forbidden) to make things right? From the time of Adam to Jesus...we had no chance...the game was rigged? Does that also mean that all our forefathers would have gone to hell?

No, we have always had the ability to reconcile with G-d. Repent of what is evil and do good. Ezek 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

You say that there is no progressive revelation of God... and yet, we wouldn't have universal knowledge of God until the Messiah came. You said there is no further revelation since Sinai and yet here you reference further revelation. I hope you can recognize the inconsistency!

NOOOO...NO further revelation of G-ds NATURE or essence. There are muzzies, Christians, Mormons, Hindus etc etc. Universal knowlege of G-d means these faulty belief systems are dispensed with. As I posted last time. The Gentiles will recognize the errors they have been taught and know that "yud hey vav hey " is G-d and the only G-d...no god the son...no god the HS. Not inconsistent!

the restoration of the Davidic line... King David was promised an everlasting dynasty and an Heir Who will rule forever.

And will never LACK A MAN to sit on the throne of Israel, not a single heir.

Jer 33:17 For this is what the LORD says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, 18 nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.’”

After Christ, the veil was torn and the Temple destroyed

There is no post biblical evidence of the veil being torn. Ezekiel 36 through 44 discusses the return of the Temple, Priesthood, Sacrifices. It is not metaphorical but real. Remember Isaiah 2:2

Restoration of the Priesthood and sacrifices... Do I even need to comment on this one from the Catholic perspective?

Well no...But suffice it to say A) Jesus can not be a priest. He is not of the tribe of Levi. He can not be a sacrifice...he is a human being.

[Deuteronomy 12:30-31] Take heed to thyself (Jewish people) that thou be not snared by following them (the pagans), after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the Eternal thy God: for every abomination to the Eternal, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

Dont act like the pagans and do what is an abomination and what G-d hates! What is that? HUMAN SACRIFICE!

And we are expected to believe that G-d then says...Okay...I changed my mind...even though I forbid you from doing it...I will murder my own human son (actually kill myself, since I am him in the flesh)! I will then require you to believe it is okay! You are to believe JUST AS THE PAGANS that human sacrifice is effective....

NO! G-d forbid! G-d doesnt follow the ways of the pagans!

135 posted on 07/12/2011 4:42:38 PM PDT by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
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To: pgyanke; blasater1960

It seems that even among Christian scholars it’s admitted that the word ‘ecclesia” didn’t mean a “church” in the sense you are suggesting a new religion, but rather what it meant previously and later - a group that are called out to learn and pray.

http://bible.cc/matthew/16-18.htm

The word for rock, Petra, is commonly believed to have been used at least partially or in its entirely to create the pun on the name Peter and I concede possibly to make a metaphor evoking the discarded rock that was chosen for the cornerstone of the first Holy Temple in Jerusalem. There is big debate among Christian scholars on exactly who or what the speaker means.

It’s consistent with the times that Jesus could have been starting a break-away congregation.

There’s an old self-deprecating joke that Jews tell. Two Jews get stranded on a desert Island. The have to fend for themselves and recreate the things that will make them feel at home. After many years, a seafaring crew finds the men and upon landing on shore see three buildings in a row and ask what the three buildings are.

The first man answers:

“The first building is the synagogue I built and attend because I like its approach to prayer. The second building is the one my neighbor built and the one he attends. The third building is the synagogue neither of would ever set foot in.”

In the Jewish tradition of religious debate and disputation, “both these and those are the words of the living Torah.”


136 posted on 07/13/2011 3:15:29 AM PDT by Seeing More Clearly Now
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
It’s consistent with the times that Jesus could have been starting a break-away congregation.

That is the way I have always perceived it. I want to give the man from Nazareth the benefit of the doubt and say he was a reformer. His criticisms of the Jewish leadership is not that different than those of the prophets.

I dont think he meant to start a new religion either. It is somewhat difficult to say since he did not write one word of his own teaching. Which to me is odd, frankly since his is "god-in-the-flesh". So, if G-d was going to start a new religion, wouldnt he at least write it in his own hand? If HaShem could write it on stone at Sinai....He could easily do so 1500 years later when scrolls exist right?

137 posted on 07/13/2011 11:00:08 AM PDT by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
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To: pgyanke

They tell me Mohammed (PBUH) went to heaven too... And he got to bring his HORSE! There sure are a lot of little godlings around promising salvation. Let’s make sure we never take the Lord’s actual, firsthand commandments too seriously, shall we? Perhaps Saul of Tarsus can clarify the matter... Or some other mortal. Maybe you? Or are you a Messenger, too?


138 posted on 07/13/2011 11:41:02 AM PDT by golux
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To: golux

What relevance does this have to the conversation?


139 posted on 07/13/2011 2:21:58 PM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: blasater1960

Bear with me. I want to respond to you but it’s going to take time to do your challenge justice. I am having to do a great deal more research because I am limited to the Old Testament in my appeals to authority with you. It is much easier to handle challenges from fellow Christians from differing traditions because at least we have the New Testament in common where all of this is easily explained.

Out of respect, I don’t want to just give you a simple, slip-shod answer.


140 posted on 07/13/2011 2:34:22 PM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now

Loved your story! Will get back to more serious issues as time permits.

God bless you.


141 posted on 07/13/2011 2:35:37 PM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: pgyanke
Bear with me

Not a problem FRiend. That was a lot of material to digest...

142 posted on 07/13/2011 3:05:28 PM PDT by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
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To: blasater1960

righteous!!!


143 posted on 07/17/2011 1:31:45 AM PDT by dennisw (NZT - "works better if you're already smart")
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To: Zathras

Hitler was not Christian and neither were many of his top lieutenants. They believed in old Nordic paganism and other ideas. But of course many top Nazis in Germany, Austria, Hungary, Croatia and all of Europe were Christian and married to Christian wives who took their children to Christian churches


144 posted on 07/17/2011 1:40:43 AM PDT by dennisw (NZT - "works better if you're already smart")
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To: blasater1960; Cvengr

“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” Isaiah 7:14

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” Isaiah 9:6

God was prophesied to come as God in flesh(or to have human “form”) at some date. To deny that truth is to deny being Jewish for Jews and to deny being a Christian for Christians.

The point of debate between Christians and Jews is whether or not God has already come in the flesh or if God is still yet to do so in the future. If Christ was (and is) God in Flesh, he would have been correct to say “Before Abraham was, I AM”. If God has yet to reveal himself as God in Flesh, he will still be correct in referring to himself as “I AM” in the same manner.

Immanuel means “God with us”.

Who do you think the Psalmist was referring to when he quotes God the Father as saying”Thou art my beloved Son, this day have I Begotten thee!”?

So even OT scripture proves that God at some date takes on a “form” as a real man; the debate between Christians and Jews is really about when this occurred or when it shall occur!


145 posted on 07/17/2011 3:20:05 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Applied Christianity;a study in spiritual fiber optics connecting God's love to man!)
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To: hwkbeer
The Nazi's were aligned with the Catholic church leadership who believe the Pope can forgive sins.

No, they weren't. The Nazis opposed Catholic church leadership and sent problem priests to the camps as well.

146 posted on 07/17/2011 3:45:41 AM PDT by Hacksaw (I don't hate Mormons.)
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now; blasater1960

“Just because we are created in the image of God does not mean that we have to reverse engineer God into human form.”

Check out Isaiah 9:6 and 7:14. Isaiah prophesied that God would indeed take human form or are you prepared to call Isaiah a heretic and a liar? God proposes thru-out scripture to “reverse engineer” man into Godly form!

The incident of Abraham and Isaac on Mount Moriah was the start of the conversation between unregenerated man and God. As Abraham would not withold his hand in sacrificing Isaac to God;(God providing instead a ram as suitable sacrifice) God was promising that he too would not withold his own Son as the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.

To the extent that the totality of the Godhood could ever have died for the sins of man, he died there on the cross that day. There are no other sacrifices, religions, doctrines or believe systems that can promise what God has promised thru Jesus Christ! In dying as God in Flesh, Jesus took death captive and was resurrected victorious over death so that all who believe can have eternal life and to live forever in the presence of God’s shekinah glory!


147 posted on 07/17/2011 4:14:10 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Applied Christianity;a study in spiritual fiber optics connecting God's love to man!)
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To: mdmathis6; Cvengr; Seeing More Clearly Now
God was prophesied to come as God in flesh(or to have human “form”) at some date. To deny that truth is to deny being Jewish for Jews and to deny being a Christian for Christians.

The problem with your explanation is that Isaiah 7 and 9 do not refer to G-d taking human form.

Isaiah 7, has already been fulfilled long ago and if you read ALL of Isaiah 7 and 8, in context, it becomes clear.

King Ahaz was looking for a sign. It was 732 BCE and he had been faced with two armies trying to destroy him. King Pekah and King Rezin. G-d tells Isaiah to go tell Ahaz to chill out, dont worry...why?

Isa 7:3. And the Lord said to Isaiah, "Now go out toward Ahaz, you and Shear-Yashuv your son, to the edge of the conduit of the upper pool, to the road of the washer's field.

4. And you shall say to him, "Feel secure and calm yourself, do not fear, and let your heart not be faint because of these two smoking stubs of firebrands, because of the raging anger of Rezin and Aram and the son of Remaliah.

So, G-d is saying I have it under control...those two Kings are not going to take Judah....So, what is the sign? A virgin birth? NO! Read it carefully...it is the AGE of the child that is the sign.

7 :15. Cream and honey he shall eat when he knows to reject bad and choose good.

16. For, when the lad does not yet know to reject bad and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread, shall be abandoned."

The child will eat cream and honey (times are good) and BEFORE the child reaches the age of accountability the two Kings will be killed.

Two Biblical passages, 2 Kings 15:29-30 and 2 Kings 16:9, confirm that this prophecy was contemporaneously fulfilled when these two kings were assassinated.

SO, clearly in context (and in Hebrew alma doesn mean virgin)...the prophecy is the age of the child. A virgin birth of a Jewish child 700+ years into the future is NO SIGN to King Ahaz in the year 732 BCE.

And the name Immanuel is NO DIFFERENT then many Jewish names that contain the name of G-d and some atrribute about G-d. Plus, it says the mother will name him Immanuel. Mary did not name him Immanuel and it is of no value to say "oh but he was god with us", first that is false, second he HAS to be named Immanuel. He wasnt. No matter how you slice it...it doesnt not in any way mean G-d is taking human form.

148 posted on 07/17/2011 10:57:41 AM PDT by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
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To: mdmathis6; Seeing More Clearly Now
The incident of Abraham and Isaac on Mount Moriah was the start of the conversation between unregenerated man and God. As Abraham would not withold his hand in sacrificing Isaac to God;(God providing instead a ram as suitable sacrifice) God was promising that he too would not withold his own Son as the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.

It was not a conversation of unregenerate man.(Gen 26:5) ..it was the 10th and final test that G-d gave Abraham. What was the test about? To see if Abraham feared G-d.

Gen22:1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!” “Here I am,” he replied.

12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

Boom! Passed the test! And then G-d gave him an animal sacrfice. Why? Because human sacrifice is forbidden. G-d says he HATES human sacrifice...it is an abonination! ( Deut 12:30, Jer 19) So, G-d is not going to tell us he hates human sacrifice and then turn around and murder his own human son (himself) and then tell us to believe in it. G-d does NOT follow the ways of the Baal and Molech worshipers!

Again...no G-d in human form....

149 posted on 07/17/2011 11:43:30 AM PDT by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
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To: Zathras
Remember it was “Christians” who sent Jews to the gas chambers. Trust me, Israel hasn’t forgotten.

And it wasn't an Orthodox priest who organized the Ukrainian famine, led the Red's forces in the Russian Civil War, was the leader of Soviet Bavarian Republic, or the first Communist dictator of Hungary.

150 posted on 07/17/2011 11:46:08 AM PDT by triumphant values (Never criticize that to your right.)
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