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Probe Into Cuba's Possible *Sunken City* Advances
Yahoo ^ | 03-29-02 | Andrew Cawthorne

Posted on 03/30/2002 8:02:04 PM PST by mercy

Probe Into Cuba's Possible 'Sunken City' Advances Fri Mar 29, 6:20 PM ET By Andrew Cawthorne

HAVANA (Reuters) - Scientific investigators said on Friday they hope to better determine later this year if an unusual rock formation deep off Cuba's coast could be a sunken city from a previously unknown ancient civilization.

"These are extremely peculiar structures ... They have captured all our imagination," Cuban geologist Manuel Iturralde said at a conference after a week on a boat over the site.

"If I had to explain this geologically, I would have a hard time," he told reporters later, saying examination of rock samples due to be collected in a few months should shed further light on the formation off the Guanahacabibes Peninsula on Cuba's western tip.

Iturralde, research director of Cuba's Natural History Museum, has joined Canadian exploration company Advanced Digital Communications (ADC) in efforts to solve the mystery of the smooth, geometrically shaped, granite-like rocks. They are laid out in structures resembling pyramids, roads and other structures at more than 2,000 feet in a 7-3/4 mile-square area.

ADC has suggested they might belong to a civilization that colonized the American continent thousands of years ago, possibly sitting on an island that was sunk to great depths by cataclysmic earth movement such as an earthquake (news - web sites).

That theory, and its inevitable parallel with the myth of the lost city of Atlantis, has provoked skepticism from some scientists around the world who say the depth and age -- ADC has spoken of at least 6,000 years' old -- were not credible.

Some European archaeologists said the stones, stumbled upon in July 2000 while ADC was hunting with sonar equipment for treasure and sunken Spanish galleons, could be formed by natural limestone.

But Iturralde's conclusion that there is no immediately apparent natural explanation for the rocks has lent credence to ADC's theory.

"NEED FOR OPEN MIND"

"It appears like there is some kind of intelligent design in the structure's configuration and planning," ADC's Soviet-born Canadian ocean engineer, Paulina Zelitsky, said on the sidelines of the geophysical conference in Havana.

"I have worked in this field over 30 years and I have never before seen natural structures shaped with such intelligent symmetry and plan. From the very first moment, I was suspecting that these structures were not natural."

While Iturralde gave evidence in his paper on Friday for seismic movement at the site, and possible submerging of the land, he drew short of definitively concluding the rocks were not shaped by nature. If, however, that theory was proven, it would revolutionize understanding of the history of the Americas, he told reporters.

"It would change a lot our knowledge of humans and the evolution of the Americas," Iturralde said.

"Recently, a French archaeologist found some evidence of people being here in South America 40,000 years ago, something we never expect, so you need to be always open to things that you are not expecting, that are not in the framework of present-day knowledge ... We may have found something that nobody has thought about."

ADC plans to take a specially designed robot to the site in a few months to take samples of the rocks and the sediment they are embedded in to try to date them and seek signs they may have once been on dry land. They will also be searching for any sign of human life such as drawings, sculptures or artifacts.

"To drill samples from these structures is not easy because they look like granite. And to drill granite at a depth of 600 meters is very difficult," Zelitsky said.

She said their discoveries could make history. "I think we are talking about the origins of the American continent. There are many hypotheses about how the continent was colonized ... There is quite a controversy, and I think our discovery (news - web sites) will be the first physical evidence of the true origins of developed civilization in the Americas."


TOPICS: Canada; Extended News; Russia
KEYWORDS: 600meters; archaeology; atlantis; canada; clovis; cuba; flood; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; history; paulinazelitsky; preclovis; russia; settegast; vikings
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I'm intrigued. Despite the fact that Art Bell thinks this is the greatest thing since the face on mars (kiss of death) I'm going to keep my eye on developments regarding this.
1 posted on 03/30/2002 8:02:04 PM PST by mercy
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To: mercy
Could be the Flinstones Bedrock!
2 posted on 03/30/2002 8:04:40 PM PST by A CA Guy
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To: mercy
I like Art Bell even if most of his guests are a bit whacky.
3 posted on 03/30/2002 8:05:41 PM PST by Libertarianize the GOP
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To: A CA Guy
A member of the FR one liner club I see.
4 posted on 03/30/2002 8:06:46 PM PST by mercy
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To: mercy
"Could this be evidence of an ancient advanced civilization? Of alien visitors who intermarried with the people of earth to produce a super-human race? Perhaps. We cannot be certain at this point. But the clues are there, and the answers are tantalizingly close."
--Erich von Charlatan, In Search of Easy Pseudo-Documentary Dollars
5 posted on 03/30/2002 8:07:09 PM PST by Charles Henrickson
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To: Libertarianize the GOP
He can be an interesting listen although I turn the dial more often than not. Too many hocus pocus 'new age' guests. He needs a better booking service. I've heard about all the NDE silly women I can handle.
6 posted on 03/30/2002 8:09:11 PM PST by mercy
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To: mercy
Do not enter the domain of Aquaman!

Seriously, this sounds pretty neat. They'd get things done much faster is Castro were out of the way.

7 posted on 03/30/2002 8:09:24 PM PST by GeronL
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To: blam
ping-a-ling
8 posted on 03/30/2002 8:09:56 PM PST by okie01
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To: Charles Henrickson
LOL
9 posted on 03/30/2002 8:10:26 PM PST by mercy
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To: mercy; blam; callisto; Ernest_at_the_Beach; LostTribe; RightWhale; Rutabega; PoisedWoman; Yeti...
(((ping))))


10 posted on 03/30/2002 8:14:40 PM PST by Sabertooth
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To: mercy
Art Bell is good to fall asleep to.

He sounds just like David Brinkley and is usually pleasant with guests and callers.

It's the closest thing we have today to the old Twilight Zone series.

11 posted on 03/30/2002 8:15:30 PM PST by Ken H
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To: GeronL
They'd get things done much faster is Castro were out of the way.

Maybe. Or maybe not. This might be the kind of discovery Cubans would be very interested in.

12 posted on 03/30/2002 8:27:33 PM PST by RightWhale
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To: RightWhale
I first heard about this more than a year ago... somebody is dragging their feet.
13 posted on 03/30/2002 8:29:11 PM PST by GeronL
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To: mercy
I'm intrigued. Despite the fact that Art Bell thinks this is the greatest thing since the face on mars (kiss of death) I'm going to keep my eye on developments regarding this.

They seem to be finding towns and cities in all the wrong places these days, at least from the perspective of evolutionists, and uniformitarian geologists. There's the city 2100' beneath the waves off Cuba, the magnetic anomaly 2 miles beneath the Antarctic ice at Lake Vostok and, despite anything you may think you know or have heard, the remains of at least one city on Mars.

Images returned from the global surveilance device in orbit around Mars the last several years have included an image of the main pyramid in the ring of pyramids to the left of the face which should have immediately ended all controversy over the question of artificiality:

To me at least, the pyramid is four sided and the four triangular sides are clear enough, and I've marked them with green lines. The other part of the image amounts to some sort of an enclosed corridor or causeway leading out from one corner of the pyramid, and then two nearly rectangular features at the end of that causeway, which may be doors or some sort of adjunct buildings. There also seems to be a line going from the Eastern corner of the pyramid to the two rectangular objects, which I've marked with a blue line, but I suspect that's just an edge of sand being blown up into a sort of an apron abutting the pyramid, and that the hollow between the pyramid and the corridor would naturally trap sand.

Nonetheless, there was little or no mention whatsoever in the press of this new pyramid image, and this was largely because press coverage centered around the new image of the face which NASA released:

This image was said to prove the entire controversy regarding Cydonia to be a bunch of buncombe, and to prove that the structures at Cydonia all to be natural geological formations.

More recently, Dr. Tom Van Flandern, a former director of celestial mechanics at the Naval Abservatory, and others have noted that the image which NASA and JPL released, aside from being a worst possible case in terms of viewing angle and lighting, had actually been "cleaned up" or something like that via the use of a high-pass filter which is a standard image processing device for removing detail. Van Flandern notes that the basic help function for Adobe's Photo Shop product notes:

High Pass Filter: Retains edge details where sharp color transitions occur and suppresses the rest of the image. The filter removes low-frequency detail in an image. Useful for extracting line-art and large black-and-white areas from scanned images.

Van Flandern notes that, as to JPL's motives in using such a filter device on this particular image and then handing it to the public, "we are left with an unhappy choice between dishonesty and incompetence."

When we consider that the raw image looks like:

and that the same image with minimal computer enhancement, which does not add any information looks like:


All of that is bad enough, i.e. it might convince people that NASA and JPL told a big, stupid lie to the American people and to the world. But it's getting worse; consider the new and more direct overhead image of the face which NASA released during May of 2001.

Click Image Above for Full Size NASA Images

Several things are clear. First and most obvious is that anybody still trying to claim that this thing is a mesa or any other kind of natural formation is dillusional. I notice several things, which I have indicated in the marked-up image below

First is that there is only one possible way to build such a thing, i.e. to pile up stones into the rough shape you need, large stones on the bottom and then progressively smaller ones, and then put some sort of a hard facing over the entire thing. You can see how this has been done in the image. On the left side from which wind and sand come, the facing is almost entirely eroded and, even where the underlying stone shows, everything has been worn smooth. On the right side, we can see that part of the facing remains, much of it having fallen off to the side in heaps. We can see the cutout in the facing for the left eye which I have noted, and we can see where the facing fell and broke away from the nose, which is what you would expect. We can also see the rough stones of the nose area, which have not all been worn smooth.

Second is that the megalith is heavily damaged, and has suffered more than one kind of damage. My guess is that the entire rock plate on which the megalith sits was picked up and slammed down, and that the megalith was deformed in the process. You can see the places where the hard casement has been pulled apart on the right side. The megalith has been compressed along the axis from lower left to upper right which I have marked with the blue line, and stretched along the other axis from lower right to upper left. The angle A between the line of the headdress on the left side and the line along the top is thus less than the original 90 degrees. The line through the center of the face has been deformed from the original straight line to the curved line which I have drawn. The basic shape of the mouth is still there, albeit moved to the left as I have noted. You can see where the outer casing has broken away from part of the outline of the mouth on the right.

You can see the ridge along the eyebrows as I have noted, you can see the indentation for the right eye and the outline of the left eye cut into the facing and still in reasonably good shape. You can see the rise for the nose as well as the area where the casing broke away from the nose on the right, and part of the remains of nostrils, and you can see the basic lines of the mouth.

Unless of course you're STUPID like the feebs at NASA who're still working triple shifts trying to convince the world this thing is a mesa. In that kind of case, no amount of technology will help. There has never been a cure for stupidity, and there will never be one.

A short while ago, Dr. Van Flandern and other associates gave a presentation at the National Press Club which may be viewed at Metaresearch.

Information has been coming in for two or three years now from the device presently over Mars. Massive evidence of Mars having been inhabited fairly recently has been accumulating. As Metaresearch and other www sites dealing with the subject note, this includes evidence of settlements:

Click on image for full NASA image. Note the terracing, and the rows of structures which are heavily weathered to the upper right of the image but which retain their rectangular corners on the lower left (leeward) side.

Other human faces have been found carved in the surface, e.g.:

Numerous other things intended to be viewed from off-planet have been documented at Metaresearch, Cydonia Files, and other sites.

What then drives the basic instinct of NASA and JPL to bury this story? One possible motive which has been suggested involves the division of funding between manned and unmanned space missions at NASA and JPL. But, more realistically, the major problem which the Cydonia findings presents to the people in these agencies is one of basic scientific paradigms. Nobody could build all of this stuff on this kind of a megalithic scale with space-suits on; the planet has to be habitable for Cydonia to get built. This is a huge problem, in that it would require a totally different basic theory of the history of our solar system from the one which the scientists have. There is simply no way, given the standard paradigm, in which Mars could have ever been habitable. It would always have been too cold, and it would never have had the gravity necessary to hold a livable atmosphere, assuming that gravity is the only thing which ever holds atmosphere to planets.

The standard scientific axiomatic scheme including the basic doctrine of uniformitarianism, evolution etc. etc. does not allow for solar-system-wide catastrophes within the age of man, nonetheless, that is precisely what we have here. Those newer face images are definitely modern people and not early hominids. Nothing involving modern people here, on Mars, or anywhere else figures to be millions of years gone by, and nothing capable of destroying the planet next to us and making a dead world of it would have gone unnoticed by our ancestors.

What we have here is another case of junk science, i.e. the theory of evolution and the doctrine of uniformity, destroying research and logical thinking amongst scientists. The science pages of our journals are filled by descriptions of NASA projects to search for microbes on Mars while studiously ignoring major evidence that they have found a city there, as if germs were important, and cities were not.

14 posted on 03/30/2002 8:31:43 PM PST by medved
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To: mercy
Yep, with affection for the one line worthy topic.
15 posted on 03/30/2002 8:31:58 PM PST by A CA Guy
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To: mercy
"....possibly sitting on an island that was sunk to great depths by cataclysmic earth movement such as an earthquake.."

Interesting. Some years ago, Jacques Cousteau (sp?) found a cave in the Carribean Sea floor down about 200 ft. In it were stalagtites! One had broken off and was lying on the floor, so he took it on board the Calypso. Now, stalagtites do not form underwater, If mineral-laden water is keeping them wet, their radius will grow at about two thousandths of an inch per year. Using this, the age of Cousteau's stalagtite was about 30,000 years!

So whatever the elevation of that cave, it had been above sea level for at least 30,00 years. What they found off of Cuba's coast could very well be an ancient city that, too, was above sea level at one time.

16 posted on 03/30/2002 8:33:36 PM PST by nightdriver
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To: Ken H
Art Bell is good to fall asleep to.

I used to. I've been d/l old time radio, and listening to that when falling asleep.

Bell's been irritating lately (to me), for some reason. That is, when he decides to "show up".

That Linda Moulton-Howe (or whatever), Bell's "reporter" on this story has a lousy interview style. (Must have been a lawyer).

17 posted on 03/30/2002 8:47:38 PM PST by Calvin Locke
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To: medved
I think if you look at the face of Mars it bears a striking resemblance to Racer-X of the Speed Racer cartoon. This is two sentences! LOL
18 posted on 03/30/2002 8:47:40 PM PST by A CA Guy
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To: Sabertooth;blam;Gods, Graves, Glyphs; callisto;
Thanks for the ping Saber!

To find all articles tagged or indexed using 'Gods, Graves, Glyphs'

Click here: 'Gods, Graves, Glyphs'

19 posted on 03/30/2002 8:49:24 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: GeronL
somebody is dragging their feet

Possibly. Funding for archaeological expeditions is severely limited. If, however, they can pull up a piece of suspicious rock, or get some decent images, a patron might step forth. It's just a matter of getting someone with the proper interest and wealth to take a look at the evidence. A university would be easiest because of the intense competition for appropriate doctoral thesis subjects. Results bring funding, but Cuba wouldn't have much funding available.

20 posted on 03/30/2002 8:58:28 PM PST by RightWhale
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To: nightdriver
Oh yeah, I rember that. One of the most interesting guys Bell has on from time to time is the guy that specializes in archaeological finds that seem to wholly contradict established science. Things like a complete gold chain found in a seam of coal several million years old. He's got reams and reams of examples and maybe he's making them up but then he's not the only one with this sort of findings. The point that this guy makes is that anything that is found that largely contradicts established theory is just ignored. No one will touch it because other coleagues further up the food chain will ostracize those who contradict the 'old guys' theories that are the basis of present day text books. Of course this is ever the case. The more things change ......
21 posted on 03/30/2002 9:01:10 PM PST by mercy
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To: medved
"Unless of course you're STUPID like the feebs at NASA who're still working triple shifts trying to convince the world this thing is a mesa. "

How about the feebs who're still trying to convince the world this thing is not a mesa?

22 posted on 03/30/2002 9:08:06 PM PST by El Sordo
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To: El Sordo
Like I said.....
23 posted on 03/30/2002 9:10:53 PM PST by medved
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To: medved
It leads me to think about all the wonderful geological formations all over earth that just happen to look like things.

It hearkens back to the days of primitive humans seeing the gods in rock formations, clouds, the moon, etc.... Then there are modern primitive humans who see Jesus in sweat stains, Mary in the glare of a building, and Elvis in a jelly donut.

In regards to whoever wrote the bulk of your post, the evidence that the human mind looks for (and finds!!) recognizable patterns in naturally occurring phenomena is so strong and so well documented that to declare those who express skepticism (of whatever degree) about life (past or present) on Mars as "Feebs" seem highly arrogant at best.

24 posted on 03/30/2002 9:24:34 PM PST by El Sordo
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To: El Sordo
Sorry, but the image of that main pyramid and the most recent face image above simply don't leave any room for doubt. Anybody claiming thoswe are natural formations is a feeb at best and likelty worse than that.
25 posted on 03/30/2002 9:41:31 PM PST by medved
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To: medved
There have been recent "revealing" (pardon the pun) infrared photos indicating the possible ruined foundations of cities buried beneath the surface of Mars. NASA and Jet Propulsion Labs seem rather embarrassed, frankly.

But I really wanted to post a link to a very interesting site at MIT concerning Maritime Archeology.

Deep Arch Program

15,000 years and before that, so much of earth's water was locked up in ice that the sea level was 400 feet or more BELOW present day's sea level. The ruins of cities have already been found off of both coasts of India at depths that would have been dry land 20,000 years ago, stone pyrmids just off the coast Japan (Okinawa) and I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't cities out in the bottom of the Caribean or out in the mid Atalantic.

26 posted on 03/31/2002 12:01:15 AM PST by goody2shooz
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To: goody2shooz
Bump.
27 posted on 03/31/2002 12:47:23 AM PST by SevenDaysInMay
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To: goody2shooz
I remember reading reports and articles concerning off-shore discoveries (more like sightings) of cities and villages off the coast of Europe.
Those I can recall were off the coast of Portugal and Spain, and I think, Morrocco. ( The location around the straits of gibraltar might explain that. )
Speculation concerning Ice Age coastal cities and their subsequent inundation by rising seas goes back at least to the 30's or 40's. ( yeah, I'm an old fart.)
28 posted on 03/31/2002 1:10:20 AM PST by Drammach
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To: okie01
Thanks for the ping. Posted HERE also.
29 posted on 03/31/2002 3:27:23 AM PST by blam
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To: medved
HAHA, good one!

I thought you were serious until you got to the part about the terraces.

30 posted on 03/31/2002 4:17:18 AM PST by dinodino
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To: medved
Best way to resolve the controversy; send the manned mission!

Doc

31 posted on 03/31/2002 4:47:59 AM PST by Doc On The Bay
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To: medved
I must be a feeb, because I looked at those photos and they sure as heck don't look artificial to me.

The human brain is great at discerning patterns where none exist.

32 posted on 03/31/2002 4:56:14 AM PST by dinodino
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To: medved
Oh, and here's another thought that you von Daniken/Art Bell types never address:

If there *are* remains from an intelligent civilization on Mars, and if NASA know this, then why aren't they hyping it and using this golden opportunity to raise money for a manned Mars mission?

Why? Because there are no ruins to be explored, simply average photos of boring rock formations in which some misguided individuals see "ruins."

Real science is so much more interesting than these hoaxes, anyway! We may yet find evidence of past life on Mars, but it'll be at the microscopic level.

33 posted on 03/31/2002 5:04:55 AM PST by dinodino
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To: goody2shooz
There have been recent "revealing" (pardon the pun) infrared photos indicating the possible ruined foundations of cities buried beneath the surface of Mars. NASA and Jet Propulsion Labs seem rather embarrassed, frankly.

Where does one read about that?

34 posted on 03/31/2002 5:15:30 AM PST by medved
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To: dinodino
I must be a feeb...

Yep...

35 posted on 03/31/2002 5:18:35 AM PST by medved
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To: medved
Not going address post #33, eh?
36 posted on 03/31/2002 5:20:15 AM PST by dinodino
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To: medved
heavy
37 posted on 03/31/2002 5:21:22 AM PST by thinden
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To: dinodino
Not going address post #33, eh?

I just did.

38 posted on 03/31/2002 5:30:23 AM PST by medved
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To: medved
Would you be so kind as to share with the class why you feel NASA would cover up evidence of a Martian civilization?
39 posted on 03/31/2002 5:34:09 AM PST by dinodino
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To: dinodino
Money. JPL is the real culprit; its funding comes from unmanned probes and a real investigation of Cydonia would almost have to be manned.
40 posted on 03/31/2002 5:45:39 AM PST by medved
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To: medved
Yep, that must be it. There's *always* some group conspiring to suppress the story, isn't there? Whether it's the Illuminati, the alien overlords, JPL, or even Elvis, the people just aren't hearing the truth.

In fact, maybe *I'm* not a feeb, but in fact a disruptor planted by the alien consortium! Maybe I'm trying to throw you off because you're *too close* to the truth! We can't let those NASA guys find our underground fusion-powered cities on Mars!

ROTFL

41 posted on 03/31/2002 6:22:41 AM PST by dinodino
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Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: Confederate Keyester, Doc On The Bay, Swordmaker,vannrox, Aquinasfan
Naturally, the site doesn't mention the possibility of the scene representing an inhabited area, but it's pretty obvious...
44 posted on 03/31/2002 8:32:20 AM PST by medved
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Comment #45 Removed by Moderator

To: medved
"Obvious?" There's nothing remotely resembling artificial constructions in that picture.

What about the outflow channel, or do you think that the Martians created that manually to fool Earthling scientist observers?

46 posted on 03/31/2002 8:39:30 AM PST by dinodino
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To: toddhisattva
Check out the happy face! Must be a sign of intelligent life.
47 posted on 03/31/2002 8:40:37 AM PST by dinodino
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Comment #48 Removed by Moderator

To: Confederate Keyester
The site shows two images, a larger zoomed image which shows the landscaping features and a smaller image below it showing the larger area. If you look near the top middle area of the small image you see something which might be as interesting if not more interesting than the zoomed area. Are there any more zoomed photos of the region to your knowledge?
49 posted on 03/31/2002 8:52:06 AM PST by medved
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To: Ken H
Closest thing we have to the old Barry Farber and Long John Kneble shows.
50 posted on 03/31/2002 9:00:01 AM PST by CaptRon
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