Posted on 10/21/2006 4:52:03 AM PDT by NYer
From Called To Communion: Understanding the Church Today
Editor's note: This is the second half of a chapter titled "The Primacy of Peter and Unity of the Church." The first half examines the status of Peter in the New Testament and the commission logion contained in Matthew 16:17-19.
The principle of succession in general
That the primacy of Peter is recognizable in all the major strands of the New Testament is incontestable.
The real difficulty arises when we come to the second question: Can the idea of a Petrine succession be justified? Even more difficult is the third question that is bound up with it: Can the Petrine succession of Rome be credibly substantiated?
Concerning the first question, we must first of all note that there is no explicit statement regarding the Petrine succession in the New Testament. This is not surprising, since neither the Gospels nor the chief Pauline epistles address the problem of a postapostolic Church—which, by the way, must be mentioned as a sign of the Gospels' fidelity to tradition. Indirectly, however, this problem can be detected in the Gospels once we admit the principle of form critical method according to which only what was considered in the respective spheres of tradition as somehow meaningful for the present was preserved in writing as such. This would mean, for example, that toward the end of the first century, when Peter was long dead, John regarded the former's primacy, not as a thing of the past, but as a present reality for the Church.
For many even believe—though perhaps with a little too much imagination—that they have good grounds for interpreting the "competition" between Peter and the beloved disciple as an echo of the tensions between Rome's claim to primacy and the sense of dignity possessed by the Churches of Asia Minor. This would certainly be a very early and, in addition, inner-biblical proof that Rome was seen as continuing the Petrine line; but we should in no case rely on such uncertain hypotheses. The fundamental idea, however, does seem to me correct, namely, that the traditions of the New Testament never reflect an interest of purely historical curiosity but are bearers of present reality and in that sense constantly rescue things from the mere past, without blurring the special status of the origin.
Moreover, even scholars who deny the principle itself have propounded hypotheses of succession. 0. Cullmann, for example, objects in a very clear-cut fashion to the idea of succession, yet he believes that he can Show that Peter was replaced by James and that this latter assumed the primacy of the erstwhile first apostle. Bultmann believes that he is correct in concluding from the mention of the three pillars in Galatians 2:9 that the course of development led away from a personal to a collegial leadership and that a college entered upon the succession of Peter. [1]
We have no need to discuss these hypotheses and others like them; their foundation is weak enough. Nevertheless, they do show that it is impossible to avoid the idea of succession once the word transmitted in Scripture is considered to be a sphere open to the future. In those writings of the New Testament that stand on the cusp of the second generation or else already belong to it-especially in the Acts of the Apostles and in the Pastoral Letters—the principle of succession does in fact take on concrete shape.
The Protestant notion that the "succession" consists solely in the word as such, but not in any "structures", is proved to be anachronistic in light of what in actual fact is the form of tradition in the New Testament. The word is tied to the witness, who guarantees it an unambiguous sense, which it does not possess as a mere word floating in isolation. But the witness is not an individual who stands independently on his own. He is no more a wit ness by virtue of himself and of his own powers of memory than Peter can be the rock by his own strength. He is not a witness as "flesh and blood" but as one who is linked to the Pneuma, the Paraclete who authenticates the truth and opens up the memory and, in his turn, binds the witness to Christ. For the Paraclete does not speak of himself, but he takes from "what is his" (that is, from what is Christ's: Jn 16: 13).
This binding of the witness to the Pneuma and to his mode of being-"not of himself, but what he hears" -is called "sacrament" in the language of the Church. Sacrament designates a threefold knot-word, witness, Holy Spirit and Christ-which describes the essential structure of succession in the New Testament. We can infer with certainty from the testimony of the Pastoral Letters and of the Acts of the Apostles that the apostolic generation already gave to this interconnection of person and word in the believed presence of the Spirit and of Christ the form of the laying on of hands.
The Petrine succession in Rome
In opposition to the New Testament pattern of succession described above, which withdraws the word from human manipulation precisely by binding witnesses into its service, there arose very early on an intellectual and anti-institutional model known historically by the name of Gnosis, which made the free interpretation and speculative development of the word its principle. Before long the appeal to individual witnesses no longer sufficed to counter the intellectual claim advanced by this tendency. It became necessary to have fixed points by which to orient the testimony itself, and these were found in the so-called apostolic sees, that is, in those where the apostles had been active. The apostolic sees became the reference point of true communio. But among these sees there was in turn–quite clearly in Irenaeus of Lyons–a decisive criterion that recapitulated all others: the Church of Rome, where Peter and Paul suffered martyrdom. It was with this Church that every community had to agree; Rome was the standard of the authentic apostolic tradition as a whole.
Moreover, Eusebius of Caesarea organized the first version of his ecclesiastical history in accord with the same principle. It was to be a written record of the continuity of apostolic succession, which was concentrated in the three Petrine sees Rome, Antioch and Alexandria-among which Rome, as the site of Peter's martyrdom, was in turn preeminent and truly normative. [2]
This leads us to a very fundamental observation. [3] The Roman primacy, or, rather, the acknowledgement of Rome as the criterion of the right apostolic faith, is older than the canon of the New Testament, than "Scripture".
We must be on our guard here against an almost inevitable illusion. "Scripture" is more recent than "the scriptures" of which it is composed. It was still a long time before the existence of the individual writings resulted in the "New Testament" as Scripture, as the Bible. The assembling of the writings into a single Scripture is more properly speaking the work of tradition, a work that began in the second century but came to a kind of conclusion only in the fourth or fifth century. Harnack, a witness who cannot be suspected of pro-Roman bias, has remarked in this regard that it was only at the end of the second century, in Rome, that a canon of the "books of the New Testament" won recognition by the criterion of apostolicity-catholicity, a criterion to which the other Churches also gradually subscribed "for the sake of its intrinsic value and on the strength of the authority of the Roman Church".
We can therefore say that Scripture became Scripture through the tradition, which precisely in this process included the potentior principalitas–the preeminent original authority–of the Roman see as a constitutive element.
Two points emerge clearly from what has just been First, the principle of tradition in its sacramental form-apostolic succession—played a constitutive role in the existence and continuance of the Church. Without this principle, it is impossible to conceive of a New Testament at all, so that we are caught in a contradiction when we affirm the one while wanting to deny the other. Furthermore, we have seen that in Rome the traditional series of bishops was from the very beginning recorded as a line of successors.
We can add that Rome and Antioch were conscious of succeeding to the mission of Peter and that early on Alexandria was admitted into the circle of Petrine sees as the city where Peter's disciple Mark had been active. Having said all that, the site of Peter's martyrdom nonetheless appears clearly as the chief bearer of his supreme authority and plays a preeminent role in the formation of tradition which is constitutive of the Church-and thus in the genesis of the New Testament as Bible; Rome is one of the indispensable internal and external- conditions of its possibility. It would be exciting to trace the influence on this process of the idea that the mission of Jerusalem had passed over to Rome, which explains why at first Jerusalem was not only not a "patriarchal see" but not even a metropolis: Jerusalem was now located in Rome, and since Peter's departure from that city, its primacy had been transferred to the capital of the pagan world. [4]
But to consider this in detail would lead us too far afield for the moment. The essential point, in my opinion, has already become plain: the martyrdom of Peter in Rome fixes the place where his function continues. The awareness of this fact can be detected as early as the first century in the Letter of Clement, even though it developed but slowly in all its particulars.
Concluding reflections
We shall break off at this point, for the chief goal of our considerations has been attained. We have seen that the New Testament as a whole strikingly demonstrates the primacy of Peter; we have seen that the formative development of tradition and of the Church supposed the continuation of Peter's authority in Rome as an intrinsic condition. The Roman primacy is not an invention of the popes, but an essential element of ecclesial unity that goes back to the Lord and was developed faithfully in the nascent Church.
But the New Testament shows us more than the formal aspect of a structure; it also reveals to us the inward nature of this structure. It does not merely furnish proof texts, it is a permanent criterion and task. It depicts the tension between skandalon and rock; in the very disproportion between man's capacity and God's sovereign disposition, it reveals God to be the one who truly acts and is present.
If in the course of history the attribution of such authority to men could repeatedly engender the not entirely unfounded suspicion of human arrogation of power, not only the promise of the New Testament but also the trajectory of that history itself prove the opposite. The men in question are so glaringly, so blatantly unequal to this function that the very empowerment of man to be the rock makes evident how little it is they who sustain the Church but God alone who does so, who does so more in spite of men than through them.
The mystery of the Cross is perhaps nowhere so palpably present as in the primacy as a reality of Church history. That its center is forgiveness is both its intrinsic condition and the sign of the distinctive character of God's power. Every single biblical logion about the primacy thus remains from generation to generation a signpost and a norm, to which we must ceaselessly resubmit ourselves. When the Church adheres to these words in faith, she is not being triumphalistic but humbly recognizing in wonder and thanksgiving the victory of God over and through human weakness. Whoever deprives these words of their force for fear of triumphalism or of human usurpation of authority does not proclaim that God is greater but diminishes him, since God demonstrates the power of his love, and thus remains faithful to the law of the history of salvation, precisely in the paradox of human impotence.
For with the same realism with which we declare today the sins of the popes and their disproportion to the magnitude of their commission, we must also acknowledge that Peter has repeatedly stood as the rock against ideologies, against the dissolution of the word into the plausibilities of a given time, against subjection to the powers of this world.
When we see this in the facts of history, we are not celebrating men but praising the Lord, who does not abandon the Church and who desired to manifest that he is the rock through Peter, the little stumbling stone: "flesh and blood" do not save, but the Lord saves through those who are of flesh and blood. To deny this truth is not a plus of faith, not a plus of humility, but is to shrink from the humility that recognizes God as he is. Therefore the Petrine promise and its historical embodiment in Rome remain at the deepest level an ever-renewed motive for joy: the powers of hell will not prevail against it . . .
Endnotes:
[1] Die Geschichte der synoptischen Tradition, 2d ed. (198 1), 147- 51; cf. Gnilka, 56.
[2] For an exhaustive account of this point, see V. Twomey, Apostolikos Thronos (Münster, 1982).
[3] It is my hope that in the not-too-distant future I will have the opportunity to develop and substantiate in greater detail the view of the succession that I attempt to indicate in an extremely condensed form in what follows. I owe important suggestions to several works by 0. Karrer, especially: Um die Einheit der Christen. Die Petrusfrage (Frankfurt am Mainz, 1953); "Apostolische Nachfolge und Primat", in: Feiner, Trütsch and Böckle, Fragen in der Theologie heute (Freiburg im.Breisgau, 1957), 175-206; "Das Petrusamt in der Frühkirche", in Festgabe J. Lortz (Baden-Baden, 1958), 507-25; "Die biblische und altkirchliche Grundlage des Papsttums", in: Lebendiges Zeugnis (1958), 3-24. Also of importance are some of the papers in the festschrift for 0. Karrer: Begegnung der Christen, ed. by Roesle-Cullmann (Frankfurt am Mainz, 1959); in particular, K. Hofstetter, "Das Petrusamt in der Kirche des I. und 2. Jahrhunderts", 361-72.
[4] Cf. Hofstetter.
Christ is not divided (1 Cor. 1:13); our unity is In Him, as He is One with the Father (John 17:20-21). There is diversity in unity in the Godhead (Father, Son, Spirit), and so (being made in His Image) in the Body of Christ. He did not hide from us the reality that there are Seven Spirits of Seven Churches - the Word of God clearly presents that Seven is the number of wholeness and perfection and completion - and I saw throughout your post to InterestedQuestioner that what Jesus dictated to John on Patmos as instructions (in letter form) from the All-Seeing Head to these churches fit for all times and all believers, and they alone do fit and encompass the Call and Command and Contract and Commendation and Condemnation to every church as well as every individual believer. All who do believe (and have believed and will believe) fall under the authority spoken to and the description of one of these Seven Churches, and ought to pay attention and act accordingly to the commands to that church (to "the spirit of" that church) in which they find themselves.
These words of Christ are the exclusive, all-encompassing and final answer to the questions of churches' and Believers' Authority and Right Practice, and these alone explain the specific reasons for the divisions within The Body of Christ on the earth - both the appropriate and inappropriate diversity.
Revelation 2
The Message to the Church in Ephesus
“Write this letter to the angel of the church in Ephesus. This is the message from the one who holds the seven stars in his right hand, the one who walks among the seven gold lampstands:
2 “I know all the things you do. I have seen your hard work and your patient endurance. I know you don’t tolerate evil people. You have examined the claims of those who say they are apostles but are not. You have discovered they are liars. 3 You have patiently suffered for me without quitting.
4 “But I have this complaint against you. You don’t love me or each other as you did at first! 5 Look how far you have fallen! Turn back to me and do the works you did at first. If you don’t repent, I will come and remove your lampstand from its place among the churches. 6 But this is in your favor: You hate the evil deeds of the Nicolaitans, just as I do.
7 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches. To everyone who is victorious I will give fruit from the tree of life in the paradise of God.
The Message to the Church in Smyrna
8 “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Smyrna. This is the message from the one who is the First and the Last, who was dead but is now alive:
9 “I know about your suffering and your poverty—but you are rich! I know the blasphemy of those opposing you. They say they are Jews, but they are not, because their synagogue belongs to Satan. 10 Don’t be afraid of what you are about to suffer. The devil will throw some of you into prison to test you. You will suffer for ten days. But if you remain faithful even when facing death, I will give you the crown of life.
11 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches. Whoever is victorious will not be harmed by the second death.
The Message to the Church in Pergamum
12 “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Pergamum. This is the message from the one with the sharp two-edged sword:
13 “I know that you live in the city where Satan has his throne, yet you have remained loyal to me. You refused to deny me even when Antipas, my faithful witness, was martyred among you there in Satan’s city.
14 “But I have a few complaints against you. You tolerate some among you whose teaching is like that of Balaam, who showed Balak how to trip up the people of Israel. He taught them to sin by eating food offered to idols and by committing sexual sin. 15 In a similar way, you have some Nicolaitans among you who follow the same teaching. 16 Repent of your sin, or I will come to you suddenly and fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
17 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches. To everyone who is victorious I will give some of the manna that has been hidden away in heaven. And I will give to each one a white stone, and on the stone will be engraved a new name that no one understands except the one who receives it.
The Message to the Church in Thyatira
18 “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Thyatira. This is the message from the Son of God, whose eyes are like flames of fire, whose feet are like polished bronze:
19 “I know all the things you do. I have seen your love, your faith, your service, and your patient endurance. And I can see your constant improvement in all these things.
20 “But I have this complaint against you. You are permitting that woman—that Jezebel who calls herself a prophet—to lead my servants astray. She teaches them to commit sexual sin and to eat food offered to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she does not want to turn away from her immorality.
22 “Therefore, I will throw her on a bed of suffering, and those who commit adultery with her will suffer greatly unless they repent and turn away from her evil deeds. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am the one who searches out the thoughts and intentions of every person. And I will give to each of you whatever you deserve.
24 “But I also have a message for the rest of you in Thyatira who have not followed this false teaching (‘deeper truths,’ as they call them—depths of Satan, actually). I will ask nothing more of you 25 except that you hold tightly to what you have until I come. 26 To all who are victorious, who obey me to the very end,
To them I will give authority over all the nations.
27 They will rule the nations with an iron rod
and smash them like clay pots.
28 They will have the same authority I received from my Father, and I will also give them the morning star!
29 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches.
Revelation 3
The Message to the Church in Sardis
“Write this letter to the angel of the church in Sardis. This is the message from the one who has the sevenfold Spirit of God and the seven stars:
“I know all the things you do, and that you have a reputation for being alive—but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what little remains, for even what is left is almost dead. I find that your actions do not meet the requirements of my God. 3 Go back to what you heard and believed at first; hold to it firmly. Repent and turn to me again. If you don’t wake up, I will come to you suddenly, as unexpected as a thief.
4 “Yet there are some in the church in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes with evil. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 All who are victorious will be clothed in white. I will never erase their names from the Book of Life, but I will announce before my Father and his angels that they are mine.
6 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches.
The Message to the Church in Philadelphia
7 “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Philadelphia.
This is the message from the one who is holy and true,
the one who has the key of David.
What he opens, no one can close;
and what he closes, no one can open:
8 “I know all the things you do, and I have opened a door for you that no one can close. You have little strength, yet you obeyed my word and did not deny me. 9 Look, I will force those who belong to Satan’s synagogue—those liars who say they are Jews but are not—to come and bow down at your feet. They will acknowledge that you are the ones I love.
10 “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world. 11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take away your crown. 12 All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my God, and they will never have to leave it. And I will write on them the name of my God, and they will be citizens in the city of my God—the new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven from my God. And I will also write on them my new name.
13 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches.
The Message to the Church in Laodicea
14 “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s new creation:
15 “I know all the things you do, that you are neither hot nor cold. I wish that you were one or the other! 16 But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth! 17 You say, ‘I am rich. I have everything I want. I don’t need a thing!’ And you don’t realize that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked. 18 So I advise you to buy gold from me—gold that has been purified by fire. Then you will be rich. Also buy white garments from me so you will not be shamed by your nakedness, and ointment for your eyes so you will be able to see. 19 I correct and discipline everyone I love. So be diligent and turn from your indifference.
20 “Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends. 21 Those who are victorious will sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne.
22 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches.”
It is extremely important and significant that there are only two of the Seven which are not given a command of rebuke:
Smyrna - “I know about your suffering and your poverty—but you are rich! ...But if you remain faithful even when facing death, I will give you the crown of life."
Philadelphia - "You have little strength, yet you obeyed my word and did not deny me...you have obeyed my command to persevere...."
"DON'T RECALL if I've noted that your exhortations are wise and fitting."
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Thank you and likewise.
You say a Christian cannot “resist” the Holy Spirit but can “grieve” Him. But they are not equivalent in this context - grief is what the Spirit feels, resist is what a mortal does.
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. – John 12:47-48
[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. – Romans 8:1
That theology is anathema to me because God’s commandments are not just meaningful they are alive within.
An epiphenomenon is a secondary phenomenon which can cause nothing to happen and therefore there is no such thing as personal responsibility, the unfolding was irresistible.
But it neuters both the laws of God and the laws of men to embrace the concept that the mind, soul or spirit cannot cause anything to happen.
Likewise, Gideon used a fleece to determine the will of God (Judges 6).
But as you say, there is a huge difference between the old covenant and the new in determining the will of God. Before Pentecost, before the indwelling Spirit, man was in one domain and God in another, those who loved God were not baptized with the Holy Spirit – and such ways (lots) were ordained to determine His will.
But we Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit (Matt 3, John 1) and thus we have the mind of Christ (I Cor 2) because we are dead to this world and alive in Him:
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. – Col 3:3
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63
The Bible is our guidepost. In it we find all kinds of life instructions, given in terms of "if, then."
None of that changes the fact that God created all existence, all history, all matter and impulse and consequence, from before the foundation of the world, in an instant. Because what God purposed in eternity, occurs in time, absolutely.
That fact is the preeminent fact of existence. We are His creation.
"Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." -- Acts 15:18
It is the humanists, the relativists, the philosophers, the politicians, who want us to think life is malleable, open-ended, free-flowing, unrestrained, inconclusive. And this they push so that we will proclaim our allegiance to them, to the world, to human effort, to the brotherhood of man, and not to the Fatherhood of all existence.
Predestination is simply acknowledging that God's will is operative and consistent and permeates every atom in the universe. Scripture tells us this over and over. God, who named the stars, who numbered the hairs on our head, who formed us in the womb, who created the end from the beginning, is the only creative force within and outside of time.
And still we say it was our idea; that ultimately we are autonomous which is just what the secular world wants us to believe. So we take our bow and wait for the applause.
And even that foolishness has been ordained by God for His glory.
"The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom." -- Proverbs 16:4
I realize you aver the writings of some men, but we really can learn a great deal from those who went before us and spent their lives immersed in rightly dividing every word of Scripture.
"Scripture is the school of the Holy Spirit, in which, as nothing is omitted that is both necessary and useful to know, so nothing is taught but what is expedient to know. Therefore we must guard against depriving believers of anything disclosed about predestination in Scripture, lest we seem either wickedly to defraud them of the blessing of their God or to accuse and scoff at the Holy Spirit for having published what it is in any way profitable to suppress; Whoever, then, heaps odium upon the doctrine of predestination openly reproaches God, as if he had unadvisedly let slip something hurtful to the church" -- John Calvin (III, XXI, 3-4, pp. 924, 926).
And why does God give us this understanding of His predestination of all things? For the Christian, it is a great and generous gift.
..."The scripture then witnesseth that all those that God hath, according to his counsel, predestinate, to be adopted his children through Jesus Christ, are also called in their time appointed, yea and so effectually, that they hear the voice of him that calleth, and believe it: so that being justified and sanctified in Jesus Christ, they are also glorified. Wilt thou then, whosoever thou art, be assured of thy Predestination, and so, in order, of thy salvation, which thou lookest for, against all the assaults of Satan? Assured I say, not by doubtful conjectures, or our own fantasy, but by arguments and conclusions, no less true and certain, than if thou were ascended into Heaven, and had heard of God's own mouth his Eternal decree and purpose? Beware thou begin not at that most high degree: for so thou shouldest not be able to sustain the most shining light of God's majesty. Begin therefore beneath at the lowest order, and when thou shalt hear the voice of God sound in thine ears, & in thy heart, which calleth thee to Christ the only mediator, consider by little and little, & try diligently, if thou be justified & sanctified in Christ through faith: for these two be the effects or fruits, whereby the faith is known, which is their cause. As for this thou shalt partly know by the spirit of adoption, which crieth within thee, Abba, father: & partly by the virtue & effect of the same spirit, which is wrought in thee. As if thou fall, & so declare indeed that although sin dwell in thee, yet it doth no more reign in thee: for is not the holy ghost he that causeth us not to let slip the bridle, & give liberty willingly to our naughty & vile concupiscences, as they are accustomed, whose eyes the prince of this world blindeth, or else who moveth us to pray when we are cold, and slothful? who stirreth up in us those unspeakable groanings? who is he that when we have sinned (yea & sometimes willingly and wittingly) engendereth in us an hate of the sin committed, and not for the fear of punishment which we have therefore deserved, but because we have offended our most merciful father? Who is he, I say, that testifieth unto us that our sighings are heard, and also moveth us to call daily God, our God, and our Father, even at that time when we have trespassed against him? Is it not that spirit, which is freely given to us as a gift, for a sure and certain pledge of our adoption? Wherefore if we can gather by these effects, that we have faith, it followeth that we are called and drawn effectually. And again, by this vocation, which we have declared properly to belong to the children of God; that is evidently proved which we took in hand to shew, that is, forasmuch as we were Predestinate by the Eternal counsel and decree of God, (the which he had determined in himself) to be adopted in his son, therefore we were given to him, whereof the conclusion followeth, that since by the most constant will of God, which only is grounded on itself, and dependeth on none other thing, we are predestinate, and no man can take us out of the hands of the son: also seeing that to continue and persevere in the faith is necessary, it followeth, I say, that the hope of our perseverance is certain, and so consequently our salvation: so that to doubt any more of it, is evil and wicked. So far then it is against reason to say, that this doctrine maketh men negligent or dissolute, that contrariwise, this alone doth open us the way, to search out and understand, by the power of the holy Ghost, God's deep secrets, as the Apostle plainly teacheth, to the end that when we know them (albeit we know them here in this world but after a sort, so that we must daily fight with the spiritual armor against distrust, we may learn to behave ourselves not idly, but rather to persevere valiantly, to serve and honour God, to love him, to fear him, to call upon him, that daily more and more as saith Peter, as much as in us lieth, we may make our vocation and election certain. Moreover how shall he stand sure and constant against so many grievous temptations, both within and without, and against so many assaults of fortune (as the world doth term it) that is not well resolved in this point which is most true? That is, that God according to his good will, doth all things whatsoever they be, and what instruments and means soever he useth in working of the same, for the commodity of his Elect. Of the which number he is, that findeth himself in this danger and trouble. As touching the other point, which concerneth Reprobation, because no man can call to mind the determinate purpose of Election, but at the same instant the contrary will come to remembrance: (besides that in the holy Scripture these two are oftentimes joined together) it must needs be, that such as esteem this part curious or unprofitable, and therefore not to be talked of, do great injury to the spirit of God. Therefore this part is to be weighed and considered, but with such modesty, that the height of God's judgments may at all times bridle our curious fancies, in such sort that we do not apply it particularly to any man, nor to any certain company. For in this also it differeth from Election, because Election (as hath been said) is revealed to us by the spirit of God within ourselves, not in others, whose hearts we can not know. And Reprobation is ever hid from men, except it be disclosed by God, contrary to the common course of things. For who can tell, if God have determined to shew mercy at the last hour of death, to him which hath spent all his life past lewdly and wickedly? But this trust [hope] ought not to encourage any man to maintain, and continue in his sin and ungodliness. For I speak of those things which we ought to consider in others, for the examples of such mercy of God are very rare, neither any man that is wise will promise to himself through a vain security and trust, that thing which is not in his own power. It is therefore sufficient if we understand generally that there be vessels prepared to perdition: the which, seeing God doth not reveal unto us who they are, we ought both in example of life & prayer, diligently endeavour to win and recover to their salvation, yea even very such, of whom by seeing their horrible vices, we almost despise. And if we observe this order, we shall receive great fruit of this doctrine. For first by the knowledge hereof, we shall learn humbly to submit ourselves to the majesty of God, so that the more we shall fear and reverence him, the more we ought to labour to confirm in ourselves the testimony of our election in Christ. Furthermore when we shall diligently consider the difference, which through the mercy of God is betwixt men, which are all alike subject to the selfsame curse and malediction, it can not be, but we must acknowledge and embrace more earnestly the singular goodness of God, than if we did make this grace common to all men indifferently, or else referred the cause of the inequality of this grace to men. Besides this, when we know that faith is a special gift of God, shall we not receive it more willingly when it is offered, and be more careful to have the same to increase, than if we should imagine (as some do) that it is in every man's power to turn and repent when he will, because (they say) the Lord would that all men should be saved, and will not the death of a sinner? Finally, when we see the doctrine of the Gospel not only despised of all the world, but also cruelly persecuted: and when we see so great falsehood and rebellion amongst men, what thing can better confirm and fortify us, than to be assured that nothing chanceth by fortune, that God knoweth his, and that they which commit these things (except God turn their hearts) are those which are destinate, not by chance, but by the sure and eternal counsel of God, to be as it were a glass, wherein the anger and power of God doth appear? Truth it is, that these things can never be so commodiously and perfectly treated of, that man's reason and wit cannot find out something to reply always to the contrary, yea and so kindleth with desire of contradiction, that it is ready to bring an action against God, and to accuse and blame him as chief author of all things. But let the Devil roar and discontent himself, and the wicked kick and wince: yet their own conscience shall reprove & condemn them when as ours, being confirmed in the truth, by the grace and mercy of our God, shall deliver and free us, in the day of Christ. To whom with the Father, and the holy Ghost, praise, glory, and honor be given for ever. So be it." -- Theodore Beza
(Sorry that last quote was so long, but every word is lovely, IMO. Every word worth reading.)
Amen. As if.
Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked? In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider: God also hath set the one over against the other, to the end that man should find nothing after him." -- Ecclesiastes 7:12-14 "For wisdom is a defence, and money is a defence: but the excellency of knowledge is, that wisdom giveth life to them that have it.
If we already have salvation, then why do we need to get rid of our "old sin nature"?
If we already have salvation, then why do we need the renewal of the Holy Spirit?
It sounds like after "salvation", we still need a lot more saving, i.e. a lot more salvation.
-A8
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." -- John 6:37-39"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one." -- John 10:28-30
"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world." -- John 17:24
"The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands." -- Psalms 138:8
"I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him." -- Ecclesiastes 3:14
"And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you." -- Isaiah 46:4
The Holy Spirit does not fail. These aren't empty promises. God made His elect; He carries them and delivers them. The Holy Spirit accomplishes exactly what God the Father has ordained from before the foundation of the world -- the redemption of His children by His grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
"God' s decree is the very pillar and basis on which the saints' perseverance depends. That decree ties the knot of adoption so fast, that neither sin, death, nor hell, can break it asunder." - Thomas Watson
Perhaps if the long quote gets some paragraphing, I MIGHT read it.
I still think Alamo-Girl's post is exceedingly more true to Scripture and to reality.
Good works, like repentance and obedience and understanding and all good fruits of faith, are from God.
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13
And we "already have salvation" because Christ "already" paid for our sins, every one of them, by His death and resurrection.
We have been redeemed. We now stand acquitted before God, blameless, because Christ has taken on the punishment due us.
Life is a lot more certain than some churches want us to believe.
Sorry. Not likely. I've read too much massed text on such threads already.
To read massed CALVINIST text is double jeapordy. unConstitutional.
LOL.
I usually paragraph text which comes too massed. I the author considers that mangling the original, tough tacos.
IF the author considers that mangling
Respectfully, I do not think you understand predestination at all, particularly in light of the fact you think it is indistinguishable from the atheist perspective.
= = = =
As Dr Walter Martin used to note . . . there are not a lot of philosophical options.
If it walks like a duck, quacks, waddles, swims, flies, quacks, ruffles it's feathers, poops, bobs it's head, wiggles it's tail, . . . like a duck . . . it's probably not an elephand nor even a goose.
DETERMINISM = DETERMINISM. Wrapping it in white-washed robes of religiosity doesn't change the facts of it one bit.
Pretending things are so doesn't make them so.
Pretending things are Biblical doesn't make them so.
Pretending the Bible presents things in a one-sided 100% all determinism picture doesn't make it so. The Scriptures are clearly BOTH-AND. Evidently, God's REALITY that He's thrown us into is BOTH-AND. Pretending otherwise, doesn't make it so. Denying the mysteries involved doesn't make them go away.
AMEN again, certainly.
Thanks.
I had to "BRAVO" this one and BTTT!
You keep using this as proof of your position, but it's meaningless. God's predestining of all things is not in any way similar to the fowl of indiscriminate fate.
The difference, and this is critical, is between a determinism based on chance or whim or nameless fate or a false god like in Islam, and a determinism based on the concrete desire, design, decree and predestining will of the Trinitarian God of all creation as revealed to us in Scripture.
But if we are the "exclusive gate keepers" to our own salvation, then how different is this from our RC FRiends who say men and magisteriums are the gate keepers?
This is the very reason the Reformation was waged. Not men, God. God is the gate keeper, and all whom the Father has given to the Son will be brought safely home.
PTL.
Thanks for your kind and humbling words. Just seemed like basic Scriptural truths and historical facts, to me.
You keep using this as proof of your position, but it's meaningless. God's predestining of all things is not in any way similar to the fowl of indiscriminate fate.
The difference, and this is critical, is between a determinism based on chance or whim or nameless fate or a false god like in Islam, and a determinism based on the concrete desire, design, decree and predestining will of the Trinitarian God of all creation as revealed to us in Scripture.
= = = = =
I believe God has infinite integrity.
I believe there are many things about God and His ways that are beyond our finding out as He declares.
I have observed many mysteries in Scripture.
I believe that God is Truth.
I do not believe that God calls evil, "evil" to our faces and evil "good" behind our backs.
Nor is 100% DETERMINISM something else on one's left hand vs on one's right hand.
It is odd, to me, that any branch of serious Calvinism would postulate that DETERMINISM is NONDETERMINISTIC when it has Judeo/Christian paint covering it. That is, when it's construed as an absolute predetermined result of chance, it's DETERMINISM. When it's construed as an absolute predetermined result of God who has predtermined absolutely everything in this time/space dimension, then it's some rubber Bible/rubber thinking/rubber philosophical sort of etherial, never-never-land kind of convoluted intellectual mess.
Not in my reality.
WE AND WE ALONE ARE THE EXCLUSIVE GATE KEEPERS BACK TO GOD.
= = =
I thought it was obvious that was communication by satire, Dr E.
The "WE" in the above was the Romanist hierarchy, dogma, traditions, phariseeism etc.
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