A Blueprint for a Monarchy in America [How Two Catholic Monarchists view the rest of us Americans]

The Altar and Throne Monarchy Site ^ | December 19, 2008 | Nick

[Gamecock]

Thanks for getting this back OT!

I don't think any American Monarchist (I am one) considers monarchy a possibility for America presently.

What an interesting statement! Presently? When then? What circumstances would bring your fantasy of a Monarchy to fruition?

[RBIEL2]

Good book , been studying Catholic eschatology for years.
We are in the period of the ‘little chastistement’. However, best Catholic book I’ve ever read hands down is ‘Triumph: The power and glory of the Catholic Church’ by H W Crocker.
Learned many tangible things between the lines on this one, repeating patterns, recurring battles over philosophy and the usual violence that entails, et al. Currently am reading ‘Introduction to the Devout Life’ by DeSales and then heavier books in that category.

[Gamecock]

Not at all.

And I’m sure you won’t mind if I return the favor then???

[annalex]

Does "not a possibility for America presently" mean that Catholics should be trying improve the possibility for it in America, at least in the future?

Not just Catholics, everyone. It is good for America, so it would be good for as many people as possible see that as a historical goal. The least we all can do is to stop using "monarchy" like a swear word often not realizing what it even means.

It is true though that since monarchy is often a happy historical experience for Catholics, and far less so for Protestants or other confessions, you are likely to find more monarchists among the Catholics. Among the Orthodox, especially, they are quite a sizable minority of the faithful.

[Alex Murphy]

What circumstances would bring your fantasy of a Monarchy to fruition?

That is the question of the day, isn't it? For those good conservative American Catholics who's expressed a preference for monarchy over a constitutional republic, but say the conditions aren't right for one, do you vote and practice your religion like you want to delay the onset of your preferred monarchy, or like you want to hasten it?

[xone]

ph

[bronxville]

Gamecock - Post 49 - “BTW: For the lurkers, what you have just seen is a predictable Catholic attempt to deflect attention elsewhere. Just like Roman Catholics on FR who blame sexually abused children for the abuse they suffered by by priests.”

Gamecock - “And I’m sure you won’t mind if I return the favor then???”

I don’t see where you need anyone to approve - your obsession began in your first or second post. How many threads did you start on Protestant Pedophilia this year?

[Alex Murphy]

--Does "not a possibility for America presently" mean that Catholics should be trying improve the possibility for it in America, at least in the future?--

Not just Catholics, everyone. It is good for America, so it would be good for as many people as possible see that as a historical goal. The least we all can do is to stop using "monarchy" like a swear word often not realizing what it even means.

I think you've just answered my question.

[annalex]

What circumstances would bring your fantasy of a Monarchy to fruition?

We may be closer to a feudal society than we realize. That is because a collapse of the oversized and today barely governable state is likely to bring about feudalism. That is not yet monarchy, but rather feudalism is a natural order in absence of a state when people make up their own law enforcement contracts with private parties, and therefore nobility emerges. Monarchy arises from feudalism when one of the bigger feudals assumes that role in order to prevent a national fragmentation and take care of national goals. Note that in Europe the formation of monarchies took centuries because medieval Europe had no national sense yet, whereas the American nation is well-formed.

By the way, some expect a dictatorship to arise when a sitting president suspends the Constitution, but that state of affairs is not monarchy, and usually leads to a re-establishment of a republic when things calm down.

[annalex]

My job is done then?

[Religion Moderator]

I can see no relationship between post 58 on this thread and the one you linked.

[Zionist Conspirator]

You are a voice of reason.

Thanks for the unexpected compliment.

I would go further and say that if, quite simply, everybody who holds any political office today (or at any other time) is told that he holds that office as his property as long as he wants it, and can bequeath it to his child -- our lives as private citizens will improve dramatically, this country will prosper in peace, the size fo government will be reduced over time drastically, and generally much if not all of the conservative agenda will be implemented in due course. That is because property is preserved and increased when it has an owner, and in a democracy the national infrastructure has no owner, only renters.

I think a similar point was made in a book entitled Democracy: The God that Failed. The point being that a permanent governing class has an incentive to preserve the country and hand it over to the next generation. Elected representatives/presidents etc. have only the incentive of short term political advantage with no concern for future generations at all.

[fishtank]

Also, B-Chan had a tagline: “Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?”

[Natural Law]

"Every time someone talks about liberal Catholics or how conservative Protestants don't vote democrat I get a good belly laugh."

The real knee slapper in this discussion is just how mathematically ignorant the anti-Catholics really are. The endless trot out the statistic of "54% of Catholics" elected Barak Obama in one breath and then tell us how Catholicism is no longer the largest denomination in the next breath.

Barak Obama got 69,456,897 votes. Of that number less than 12 million were Catholic. That means 57 million non-Catholics, the majority of whom were Protestant, put Obama into office.

[Cronos]

Barak Obama got 69,456,897 votes. Of that number less than 12 million were Catholic. That means 57 million non-Catholics, the majority of whom were non-Catholic, put Obama into office.

True. And what would be interesting is if Alex posted the way his specific denomination voted -- I'm tired of some left leaning, Democrat voting groups (like the OPC etc.) hiding behind the "Protestant" label.

These small groups of 10,000 adults and pederasts may shout that x% of Protestants voted this way, but that hides the true numbers -- I mean, if 75% of 10,000 OPC vote democrat, they would hide behind the x%, right?

[Alex Murphy]

Barak Obama got 69,456,897 votes. Of that number less than 12 million were Catholic. That means 57 million non-Catholics, the majority of whom were Protestant, put Obama into office.

How are you defining "Protestant"? Does "Protestant" mean "Non Catholic" in the above sentence? If a majority of 57 million is Protestant, and their numbers are larger than the 12 million Catholics who voted for Obama, where are they found on the below chart?

2008 Presidential Election demographics, footnoted and annotated
Your "by the numbers" breakdown of vote, with emphasis on the religious voter (as of 11/10/08):

xx% McCain, 23% Obama - White Evangelicals age 30-64¹¹
75% McCain, 25% Obama - White^7,10 Born Again^5,10,12 Evangelicals^1,8,10,12
xx% McCain, 32% Obama - White Evangelicals age 18-29¹¹
65% McCain, xx% Obama - Weekly church-attending Protestants⁷
65% McCain, 34% Obama - White Protestants^7,8
62% McCain, 35% Obama - State of Utah³
59% McCain, 40% Obama - Working-class whites¹³
57% McCain, 41% Obama - White men¹³
55% McCain, 43% Obama - Weekly mass-attending Catholics ^6,9
54% McCain, 44% Obama - Weekly church-goers^1,4,7,12
54% McCain, 45% Obama - Protestants^6,8
53% McCain, 46% Obama - White women¹³
52% McCain, 47% Obama - White "regular-mass-attending" Catholics¹²
51% McCain, 47% Obama - White college graduates¹³
xx% McCain, 47% Obama - White independent voters¹³
51% McCain, 49% Obama - White Catholics^1,7,11
46% McCain, 52% Obama - Non-Evangelical Protestants ¹²
xx% McCain, 53% Obama - Monthly church-goers ⁴**
45% McCain, 54% Obama - Whites¹³
45% McCain, 54% Obama - Catholics^{1,4,6,8,9,10,11,12}
xx% McCain, 59% Obama - Semi-annual church-goers⁴**
38% McCain, 61% Obama - Occasional churchgoers¹
37% McCain, 61% Obama - Non-weekly-mass-attending Catholics^6,12
30% McCain, 67% Obama - Hispanics¹³****
xx% McCain, 67% Obama - Hispanic Catholics^8,11**,***, ****
xx% McCain, 67% Obama - Hispanic Protestants and other Christians¹¹**, ****
xx% McCain, 68% Obama - Don't attend church⁴ **
23% McCain, 75% Obama - Unaffliliated with any religion¹¹
21% McCain, 78% Obama - American Jews^2,8,12 and other faiths¹²
xx% McCain, 94% Obama - Black Protestants^11,13**,****
xx% McCain, 96% Obama - Blacks¹³**,****

** No source provided voting percentages for the other party.
*** Associated Press (citation #11) reports this number as 72%, instead of the 67% other media gave it.
**** Note that some media are reporting the same numbers for the Hispanic and Black vote in general, as well as for those same groups with Catholic or Protestant affiliation.

Citations:
¹ The Awesome Blue God -- How Obama Forged A New Faith Coalition
² Exit polls: 78% of Jews voted for Obama
³ Utah's red loses some of its luster
⁴ Obama's Religious Appeal: Still Missing Evangelicals - which TIME renamed as Obama: Bringing (Some) Evangelicals In
⁵ The Evangelical Electoral Map
⁶ What's wrong with Catholic voters? What's wrong with Catholics?
⁷ Evangelical Voters Favor McCain by Wide Margins
⁸ Catholic voters heavily favored Obama, analysis shows
⁹ What Happened to the Catholic Vote?
¹⁰ Loyal to the End: Evangelicals Stay the Course
¹¹ Obama results show gains in key religious voters
¹² How the faithful voted
¹³ Exit polls: How Obama won

All numbers cited above are the earliest ones reported in the press. In cases of multiple reports, some percentages cited were not exact. However, the numbers above are within 2% of all sources cited, lending credence to the general number & placement overall.

Other resources:
With the Help of Catholics…Obama’s Victory
Results! Evangelicals
Mainline Protestants and Latino evangelicals surge toward Obama [pre-election article]
Poll: Latino Protestants switching back to Democrats this election [pre-election article]
The Hispanic Protestant swing vote [pre-election article]
America spoke
Believers in the Pews--and the Polling Booth
McCain Beats Bush on Evangelical Vote

I wouldn't (and don't) "blame the Catholics" for Obama's win. If anything, I blame the Protestant and Evangelical churches for Obama's win, via the Hispanic and Black "Protestant" votes. Our congregations are (apparently) far more racially divided than 2004's vote let on. Hispanic and Black "Protestant" voters went for Obama in almost opposite ratios to White Protestants. That's not something the Protestant/Evangelical church should be proud of....

....In short, I believe that Christians in 2008 have lost ground, and are now too small a minority to sway elections in and of themselves. We have become strangers in a foreign land (Exodus 2:22, cf Jeremiah 5:19). That's the real story coming out of these election results, in my honest opinion.
-- Alex Murphy, November 10 2008

[Cronos]

what would be interesting is if Alex posted the way his specific denomination voted -- I'm tired of some left leaning, Democrat voting groups (like the OPC etc.) hiding behind the "Protestant" label.

These small groups of 10,000 adults and pederasts may shout that x% of Protestants voted this way, but that hides the true numbers -- I mean, if 75% of 10,000 OPC vote democrat, they would hide behind the x%, right?

SO, Alex -- how many of your particular denomination voted democrat? 75%+?

[Alex Murphy]

SO, Alex -- how many of your particular denomination voted democrat? 75%+?

SO, Cronos -- did you give up your American citizenship when you moved to Poland? If not, how did you vote in the American elections in 2008? In 2010? Did you vote Democrat like the majority of Catholics here did?