Saul And The Charismatics...

And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)

I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.

… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)

I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?

Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.

But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.

Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)

One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.

Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?

False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.

The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.

These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.

Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.

The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.

At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!

Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!

“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.

Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,

When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)

The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.

“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.

Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)

The problem I see with the charismatic theology as taught today is that it is unscriptural in that it does not lift up Jesus.

One of the jobs of the Holy Spirit is to point to Christ. The current teachings on tongues and signs as adhered to in the church today exalts the Holy Spirit.

I’ve been in charismatic churches which are big on tongues and being slain in the Spirit and they whip people up to an emotional frenzy during *worship* and then beg and plead for the Holy Spirit to be with us, to fill us, to be present, to show Himself, to have His way in our hearts, etc.

Jesus who?

For one thing, Jesus said that where two or three are gathered, there He is in our midst. There’s no need for us to beg and plead with Him to be present. What about just thanking Him for being with us as He promised?

And why beg and plead for the Holy Spirit? Since when is HE supposed to be the center of attention like He is between that and the focus on the gifts He apportions as He wills? All that does is put out eyes on the HS, the signs, the individual believers - Look how spiritual they are, they speak in tongues, they can heal, they are prophesying....

And even those things practiced within the church are all focused on the believers and not exalting Christ.

I don’t for a minute believe that miracles have ceased or that God doesn’t heal or can’t have someone speak in tongues if the situation warrants it. My objection is that most of the teaching and practice of the gifts as they are labeled today is contrary to the clear teaching of Scripture. Our experiences need to be evaluated in light of that, not Scripture evaluated in light of our experiences, and yet that’s what’s been happening.

It’s especially evident with the whole *slain in the Spirit* phenomena. I have yet to find ONE verse that supports that teaching or practice and yet there are churches where it’s practiced almost every Sunday and accepted as truth, just as the teaching that God dances over us is.

The only people I can think of who were slain by the Spirit were Ananias and Sapphira and I’m not interested in going there, thankyouverymuch.

Let me suggest, though, a minor correction of major import to your contention: My Bible is not the Sword of the Spirit. It is just ink on paper. In Eph. 6:17 the Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God; the spoken Word of God, the "hrema," not the "graphe" -- though the graphe is very important to communicate words that can be spoken.

Of course, when I speak of the Bible, or Holy Scripture, it is the Word of God, his revelation to man through the Apostles and prophets, the God-breathed truths and not necessarily a particular translation or version, copyrighted text that I mean. Thanks for clarifying that. Whenever Jesus disputed Satan, it was by speaking "it is written..." and the sword of the Spirit is the Word of God, His truth.

I agree with you about the Holy Spirit using the memorized Scriptures. In Bible college, we memorized verses and even chapters at a time and nearly EVERY class had some amount of memory verses that we were tested on. I am so grateful for that nearly forty years later especially as I engage here. I may not recall the exact location of a verse but I recall a word or phrase or concept, and I know it is in there so I use a number of on-line Bibles to seek and find the references. Another way the Holy Spirit works is in bringing to our remembrance the truths taught within the word as well as when we hear a certain doctrine, we have a sense that it is or is not Scriptural by what we have learned in the Word. And you are quite right, it is a lifelong process and there are no shortcuts. It is immersing ourselves in the Word that it becomes a part of us and a strong defense in the spiritual warfare we engage in.

But those statements that Christ made in Mark 16:15-18 were NOT tempting God. They were affirmative statements. "Shall" does not mean "maybe" or "should" or "can"- if you have enough faith. And they do not mean it is tempting God to perform something that HE says can be performed by ALL THAT BELIEVE. It is a very positive statement meaning it WILL happen.

It does NOT say that a few will do these things; it say ALL who believe. It does NOT say pick out a few signs that fit your personality and let them be for you; it says ALL signs are for ALL who believe.

And then we're stuck with the apparent contradiction of 1 Corinthians 12 and 14.

If indeed the verse in Mark indicates that ALL who believe SHALL do those things, then the person hanging their hat on that verse needs to explain these verses.....

1 Corinthians 12:11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

1 Corinthians 12:27-31 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.

Hebrews 2:1-4 1 Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. 2 For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, 4 while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

This is why we're given the Holy Spirit and His power.....

Ephesians 3:14-19 14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, 16 that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Colossians 1:9-14 9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. 11 May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

And right here much of the church is being disobedient with its focus on tongues.....

1 Corinthians 14:1-5 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

All I ever see tongues doing is building up the individual because then every one judged him as *spiritual* having arrived, that is being filled with the Holy Spirit. He's become one of the *have's*.

Seems to me you are TWISTING SCRIPTURE. Yes it’s a very positive statement. Avoid making it sound MORE ALL INCLUSIVE than it is. IT’s not designed to be ALL inclusive around absurdity.

Satan rightly told Christ that the Scripture said angels would hold him up, catch Him if He threw Himself off the temple. But it was still a wrong application of a true Scripture.

The TEMPTING GOD depends on the application. Deliberately playing with snakes to prove that Scripture would be tempting God. Picking up a snake in a pile of firewood like Paul did was NOT tempting God. Same true Scripture. One application is absurd and tempting God and one isn’t.

This is NOT REALLY THAT hard.

The verses do NOT say

“SHALL FOLLOW 100% of THEM THAT BELIEVE IN 100% of ALL SITUATIONS 100% OF THE TIME IN ALL CONTEXTS IN ALL RELATIONSHIPS REGARDLESS OF DEGREES OF FAITH; REGARDLESS OF WHAT GOD’S DOING IN A GIVEN SITUATION; ETC. ETC. ETC.”

Personally, I believe those verses are intended BY GOD to be normative—routinely true in the lives of all believers to some degree—DEPENDING on the needs of the individuals in each daily situation.

I can just imagine someone walks up to an old man sitting on a park bench and begins to pray for the man’s leg for healing. And the man starts hitting him telling him to stop—my leg’s not got a problem. That wouldn’t make much sense. But given your line of reasoning someone could try that because they hadn’t yet had their healing for the day. That’s absurd.

On the other hand, it’s MORE absurd to believe that God would not honor HIS OWN WORD. Christ took great pains to emphasize the rather generic APPLICABILITY OF HIS WORD.

Does NOT have anything to do with personality. IT HAS TO DO WITH THE LEADING OF HOLY SPIRIT IN EACH SITUATION. HOLY SPIRIT IS STILL TO BE IN CHARGE. Sigh.

AND Holy Spirit is IN CHARGE

IN RELATIONSHIP!

He’s NOT a vending machine. Put faith quarters in and get a cookie cutter manifestation of Holy Spirit. HE does NOT work that way.

Yet, HE IS FAITHFUL TO BACK UP FAITH-FILLED OBEDIENCE in response to God’s promises and Word.

THAT is the point, Quix. When God says ALL who belive can DO things, it is NOT tempting Him to believe what He says.

Or course it’s not tempting him to believe what He says. It IS, however, FOOLISHNESS to pretend that He’s saying something He’s not saying.

I'm not nit-picking this. I am trying to understand how something that is PLAINLY stated by Jesus Christ can be taken any other way than the way He said it.

I choose to take you at your words above regardless of appearances.

I would encourage y’all on your side to quit taking what Christ said any other way than the way He said it.

Why didn't Paul lay hands on Timothy and heal him of his often stomach infirmities? There MUST be a reason. Or else Paul was out of the will of God, if he had the gift of healing and did not use that gift to heal. There IS a reason. But you refuse to see it.

Your assumptions are showing again.

I assume that Paul did lay hands on Timothy for healing. Clearly Paul had plenty of faith as many were healed even from his handkerchiefs. However, evidently it was not to be in Timothy’s case—as far as Scripture informs us about it. There’s no evidence that Scripture said all there was to say about it. Sooooo ASSUMING is very hazardous given such little information.

Did that mean Paul was a charlatan? NOT AT ALL. Does Scripture say anything about the WHY? Not at all. Arguing from silence about it is a fool’s errand. It sounds like some hereon are ready to start stoning Paul as a false, counterfeit healer. Nonsense. There’s just some aspects about Timothy’s case that we don’t understand fully.

By NO means does that negate Paul’s gift of healing or gift of miracles or ministry 1/10th of a percent. It just means we don’t understand everything. Trying to hammer that case into preconceived cessationist hogwash is unwise at best.

I cannot, in good conscience, just let your words go unanswered. But I cannot, in good conscience, argue with my brother in Christ. HERE is a conundrum my FRiend..

Civil mutually respectful discourse is fine with me.

In terms of the above, I don’t read any remotely adequate “answer” to my points. I read what comes across as an extremely flawed set of rationalizations for some narrow, rigid, unBiblical, illogical biases about the issues.

What’s puzzling is how so many bright earnest Christians can hold such unBiblical notions about something Scripture is reasonably clear about.

However, I don't observe folks meeting me even 1/10th of the way toward mutually respectful and rational dialogue.

I observe not only my words being twisted all out of shape but also Scripture--relentlessly.

I don't observe an attitude of seeking God's Truth.

Unless and until I feel like responding more again, and unless others of my perspective feel like taking up the challenge, Holy Spirit will have to carry His own water on this thread.

I have posted the example of my close friend who unknowingly spoke 3 different tribal languages as she thought she was merely praying quietly in prayer at the close of her 3 tribal meetings with 3 distinctly different tribes. In each case, the old timers nearby later asked he where she'd learned the more ancient more eloquent version of their language and that she'd just presented a beautiful summary of the Gospel story as she thought she was merely praying in a Heavenly language.

Folks don't deal with that. I don't expect ya'll to. No explanation seems to ever been enough. That leads me yet again to the conclusion that God's Truth is really not what's being sought.

Evidently there's still the bitterness, resentment, wounded pride stuff demanding a pound of flesh and a pint of blood from those who dare to believe differently based on solid Scriptural foundation.

Welllllll, I will assert here and now . . . in the not distant future, it will be moot. The gifts including tongues and tongues and interpretation and all the rest will be functioning routinely daily in the lives of a majority of the authentic believers. I'm emphatically certain of that.

And, I personally expect that those who resist such, throw rocks at such, have a negative critical attitude toward such will be IN DANGER of finding themselves outside the camp of what God is doing in that locale.

For those throwing rocks at whatever Holy Spirit is doing in this era . . . I encourage much greater caution than I've observed on this thread.

Enough for now. Sheesh what a stinking pile of nonsense.

You cannot have it both ways. Take the verses you like and run with them, take the ones you're not so comfortable with and let them lay unanswered. Either ALL THAT BELIEVE ARE ABLE TO DO THESE THINGS, or they are NOT. OR, perhaps, there is another answer to this conundrum.

Could the "other" answer be that those who are in the will of God doing His work will be protected by Him and they can be assured that no matter what happens in their lives, God is in control? When Mark spoke of people handling deadly serpents and living he could have been speaking of Paul who is spoken of in Acts 28:3-5 "Paul gathered a pile of brushwood and, as he put it on the fire, a viper, driven out by the heat, fastened itself on his hand. When the people who lived there saw the snake hanging from his hand, they said to one another, 'This man must be a murderer! He may have escaped from the sea, but Justice won't let him live.' But Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no ill effects." Jesus told his disciples, "I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you." (Luke 10:19) We can have the assurance EVEN today, that not one thing can happen to us that God does not approve of. Just like Job and just like the three cast into Nebuchadnezzar's fiery furnace said, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him." and "If we die, we die."

People should not be out testing their faith and testing God to see if he means what he says, that is wrong. But we need have no fear when we trust God to lead us. In the same vein, these "sign gifts" of the Holy Spirit were not things people were supposed to seek out, or, God forbid, pretend, but the Holy Spirit gave to each one as HE willed. And each person was to cherish and use the gifts for God's purposes not for their own gain. God could just as easily removed ones gifts from him if he did not use them correctly and that is why Paul admonished the Corinthians who were so immature in their faith that they were playing gamesmanship with them. Comparing themselves among themselves, which Paul said was unwise.

ONE example, Quix. That's ONE example.

So by that we're supposed to take every other utterance of tongues practiced in church as genuine based on ONE time that something legitimate happened?

Nor does that one example address the issue that tongues as taught and practiced within the majority of Charismatic churches today has little or no Scriptural support.

There is nowhere that clearly says it's anything other than another earthly language, there's nowhere where we are commanded to seek for it like SOOOO many people I know do, there's nowhere to be found that states that tongues is THE evidence of the baptism or filling of the Holy Spirit and that is how we are to know that that event has happened, there's nowhere that says that praying in tongues is a *prayer language* or is more effective or powerful than praying in one's native tongue.

And yet the church is being filled with that very teaching, teaching that has no solid Scriptural support.

The way I see it, Satan will only be able to deceive the very elect with signs and wonders if they are conditioned to look to those for validation of spiritual teaching or experience instead of Scripture.

Depending on signs and wonders is dangerous ground that leaves one open to deception because then one isn't comparing to Scripture and *It is written....*

Now people are looking to *It has manifested.....*

Big problem there.

What Paul was facing with the Corinthians and how he had to repeatedly address them was far more than simply “normal”.....the Corinthian church was a mess and more than once Paul had to write and or speak to them to the pagan eliments which they had brought into the church. They were only a few months removed from the raw paganism of one of the most wicked cities of the New Testament world.

Here are some of the problems that Paul had to deal with in the Corithian church:

1) There were divisions, personality cults, and cliques.

2) Carnality outweighed spirituality.

3) Sexual perversion, fornication, incest, and adultery were commonly practiced and accepted.

4) Pride, worldliness, and materialism reigned within.

5) Church members were taking one another to court.

6) There was rebellion against apostolic authority.

7) There was a failure to discipline members had fallen into sin.

8) Marital conflict and mis- understanding concerning those who were single were evident.

9) There were abuses of liberty.

10) There were abuses of God’s intended roles for husbands and wives.

11) They were failing to properly observe the Lord’s Supper.

.... It is not hard to understand how there could also be serious perversion of the spiritual gifts.

It should be very clear that this church should in no way be an example for New Testament churches today to follow.

This issue of tongues, healings etc. indeed plays into the Corinthian church for they were completely out of control having brought into the church the elements from their worship of false Gods and practices of... Understanding the church and why Paul had to travel/write so many times there is necessary to understanding the specifics he had to lay out for them....for they were in a bad way to say the least.

The Corinthian church members were in such a confused state, that they were unable to distinguish between what was of the Spirit and what was of Satan. Although there was a core of Jewish believers within the church, most were from the pagan environment of that time and throughout that city... which practiced Baal worship based on “feelings” and all manner of ‘ecstasy’.

http://www.crivoice.org/books/1corinth.html

**Of course Abraham ACTED on his faith, that’s what real faith is. But it was NOT his acts that declared him righteous before God, it was his faith.**

You seem to contradict yourself in those two sentences, for you admit that acting on faith is REAL FAITH.

It may only seem to be a contradiction because of the problem of separating works from faith and which brings the righteousness of God that results in salvation. Of course, true faith, faith that is alive, produces works meet for repentance. But it is NOT the works that acquires that salvation, only the grace of God through Christ can do that. When we place our trust in Christ, we are receiving Him, accepting Him and his gift. God says that is what brings salvation. AFTER we are born again through faith, we have the indwelling Holy Spirit and a new spirit nature that desires to live for God. When James says, "Faith without works is dead.", he is not contradicting other Scriptures that say we are saved by faith apart from works. Rather, he is stating that a living, vibrant, genuine faith demonstrates through works. If someone says he has faith but there are no external demonstrations of it, his old sinful ways are not left behind and he has no desire for living for God, others will look at that and conclude his faith is a dead faith. Now, notice, it doesn't say he is dead, or he is going to hell, but that his faith is dead because it produces no fruit, it is unproductive. But that is NOT saying - please "get" me here - that his works are what saves him, they can't because we are not saved by our works but by God's grace THROUGH faith.

I'm glad you have a time to rest, I hope the road isn't too bad for you right now. I know winter is not the best time to be "on the road". I hope and will pray that you take some time to ponder this essential truth. Let God's grace penetrate whatever hurdles are up there in your heart preventing you from grasping this wonderful good news:

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5

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