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Childish behavior |
Posted on 02/14/2012 4:00:49 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
Not long ago I came across some of his work. You are correct...and his work still affects those who read or hear it.
Important to know and understand this distinction...and as much interesting in light of the fact when Adam was confronted by God he then blamed Eve..."The woman you gave me she made me to eat"....but in truth Adam was blaming God.
Am catching up on this thread....interesting opinions along the way here...some I agree with others not so much.
It isn't necessarily denying the truth....as truth will always cause division Quix, and it may very well not be denial....rather what one "believes" in about what they perceive as truth.
I probably need to pick up some of his teaching again....
Thanks-
What is the gospel, Zuriel? And where in Scripture may I find it?
I understand that. Quite so.
It is, however, also Biblical truth that Holy Spirit will persistently try to communicate His Truth to everyone--particularly those calling themselves Christians.
He just rarely shouts vs a quiet still small persistent voice of The Lord.
And, when folks have their consciences seered or clouded over by stubborn human rationalizations and convictions born of the flesh--whether intellectualized hogwash fed by lies from hell or emotional relationship hogwash fed by demonic influence from hell--they may more easily ignore the voice of Holy Spirit.
Nevertheless, CHRIST SAID "MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE." So if folks are not hearing the Voice of The Lord, there's something wrong with their status as sheep . . . or . . . they have not obeyed the last thing The Lord told them and He's waiting for them to catch up.
Rationalizations about Cessationist hogwash are gross deceptions from hell.
Such an UnBiblical perspective is just
B) Style and methods
C) Purposes and goals
D) Habits and preferences
E) Unchangeableness
or, put another way,
Program a robust computer with very clear objective linguistic criteria for meaning etc. and ask the computer if the Bible supports Cessationism or not. It would declare emphatically that it does not.
3. an outrageous insult to Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit's God Almighty ASSIGNED operations in the CHURCH AGE.
4. Overwhelmingly thick-headed, obtuse, absurd, ANTI-Biblical in terms of the plain language of Acts 2 and I Cor 12-14 about what Paul laid out plainly as NORMATIVE BEHAVIOR and PRACTICES for Christians in life and in Christian meetings.
5. thoroughly IN DENIAL about God's intent as well as God's demonstrable operations in the current era on such scores. WHEN people TAKE GOD AT HIS WORD--signs tend to follow accordingly. When they refuse to take God at His Word, there's few to no signs following.
There was a kind of joke in China . . . the further Christians were from a Seminary--the more miracles routinely occurred.
Thanks for your kind reply.
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." 1 Tim. 5:23.
Why wasn't Timothy prayed for and hands layed on him to heal his "often infirmities" ? Where were the divine healers when such a great man as Timothy was in need of healing?
2. When was the last time someone in your church handled snakes? Mark 16:18 says "they SHALL". Not some of them. Or only those with enough faith. It says ALL WHO BELIEVE. They SHALL.
3. Who in your church has drank poison and survived? Once again, "they SHALL". Not a few. ALL that believe.
You cannot have it both ways. Take the verses you like and run with them, take the ones you're not so comfortable with and let them lay unanswered. Either ALL THAT BELIEVE ARE ABLE TO DO THESE THINGS, or they are NOT. OR, perhaps, there is another answer to this conundrum.
Find even ONE post where we have said that, just one! There is a HUGE difference in saying we are saved by our works and we are saved by our faith. But it takes an openness to the Gospel and the leading of the Holy Spirit to recognize it. One says works save the other says grace saves through faith. Of course Abraham ACTED on his faith, that's what real faith is. But it was NOT his acts that declared him righteous before God, it was his faith. Like that verse from Romans 4:2 I gave earlier said, "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.". Did you SEE that? If Abraham was justified by what he did - moving from Ur, going to an unknown land, sacrificing his son, Isaac - he had something he could boast about but NOT before God. All the righteous deeds we can do can NEVER take away our sins - only the blood of Christ can do that. So what we are trying to communicate here, what Scripture clearly teaches repeatedly, is that our works PROVE our faith, but they do NOT make us righteous. Can you understand the difference???
I am not relying on my works to save me, they CAN'T save me. I am relying upon the gift of God through Christ who makes me righteous through faith in him. It is NOT by the righteous works, deeds, acts, that we have done but according to HIS mercy he saved us. When you say, "The Lord is not going to see your faith if you just sit there and say in your mind, “I accept the Lord”, but refuse his baptism." can you not see how ludicrous that is? Is God not able to see our hearts? Is He not able to know if our faith is genuine? Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks upon the heart. All the baptisms, good works, righteous deeds, etc., that we can do can NEVER take away sin, but FAITH can.
Please don't misunderstand, no one is saying we should not put our faith in action - true faith just does what is right, it seeks to please God - but it is NOT those actions that make us righteous before God. He demands FAITH and without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. Even the act of being water baptized - which is obeying Jesus in confessing him before men - is NOT what makes us righteous before God. PLEASE, please get this point: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8,9)
I would like you to read back over these exchanges as if you were a bystander, try, please. Then see from where there is anger and bitter spewing. Look where the "hurt", "irrational", "angry" emotion and "bitter spewing" shows up. Read back over the comments that I and Metmom have posted, then reread your own. Who is the one demonstrating the most obvious emotion. Have we really failed to agree with you when warranted? Have we made the exchanges personal or implied satanic origins for what you experience? Have we failed to explain over and over that we know the Holy Spirit is active and working in the lives of Christians today?
What it appears you will only accept as "agreement" with you is if we concede you and anyone else is speaking in the genuine Holy Spirit given, first century, gift of tongues. It sure seems like all else is ignored. But, can you not see that that IS the point of our dialog here? We are stating we do NOT agree that same gift as well as the other sign gifts (healings, prophecy, revealed knowledge) ARE active today and we have said why we believe that. We have given Scripture as well as experiential knowledge - the same things you say you are giving. Obviously we will not come to an agreement on this. On many other things we can, but on this we won't. I can live with that and not let it affect my relationships, can you? Can you allow that others love the Lord every bit as much as you do, that we seek to obey Him and honor Him with our lives? If this subject comes around again, I suppose we may bump heads again, but it is not and has not been personal. The whole world will know we are Christians by our love.
I will ask you 4 questions that I'm sure you are often asked. So often in fact, that they are probably considered absurd. But I would like to see your responses.
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." 1 Tim. 5:23.
Why wasn't Timothy prayed for and hands layed on him to heal his "often infirmities" ? Where were the divine healers when such a great man as Timothy was in need of healing?
Perhaps the same place St Paul was when The Lord told him HIS GRACE WAS SUFFICIENT regarding his “thorn in the flesh!”
Where did I say there are NO MYSTERIES in our Christian walk?
Where did I say ANY of us no longer “see through the glass dimly” but now see all things with crystal clarity?
2. When was the last time someone in your church handled snakes? Mark 16:18 says "they SHALL". Not some of them. Or only those with enough faith. It says ALL WHO BELIEVE. They SHALL.
Absolutely and I believe it entirely. I have come across folks who were bitten by deadly poisonous snakes in missionary situations without ill effect. As we know from what Christ said—DO NOT TEMPT THE LORD YOUR GOD. Deliberate snake handling is absurd. Nevertheless, GOD’S PROMISE IS STILL OPERANT AND EFFECTIVE for fitting cases of snake bite.
3. Who in your church has drank poison and survived? Once again, "they SHALL". Not a few. ALL that believe.
Again, The PROMISES OF GOD are STILL operant and in effect. I’ve talked with folks where enemies of missionaries tried to poison them with no effects. And, I, myself, unwittingly drank some pretty dreadful stuff on the mission field without ill effects. Again, that’s quite different from TEMPTING THE LORD YOUR GOD by drinking poison deliberately to ‘TEST GOD.’ Foolishness is still foolishness regardless of the rationalizations involved.
You cannot have it both ways. Take the verses you like and run with them, take the ones you're not so comfortable with and let them lay unanswered. Either ALL THAT BELIEVE ARE ABLE TO DO THESE THINGS, or they are NOT. OR, perhaps, there is another answer to this conundrum.
No conundrum. Like the 3 children of Israel in the fiery furnace . . . OH KING, OUR GOD IS ABLE TO DELIVER US. HOWEVER, IF PER-CHANCE FOR WHATEVER REASON, HE CHOOSES NOT TO IN THIS CASE, WE WILL STILL NOT BOW DOWN TO YOU—IF WE DIE WE DIE. YEA THOUGH HE SLAY ME, YET WILL I SERVE HIM. That’s the proper stance.
God has always shown Himself faithful in behalf of those WHO TRUSTED HIS PROMISES AND HIS GIFTINGS IN FITTING FAITH AND OBEDIENCE.
God is not obligated to support foolishness any more than Peter put up with the foolishness of the bloke wanting to pay money to be able to lay hands on people and have them healed.
The attitude behind such things is foolishness and worse. God does NOT affirm such foolishness.
HE DOES affirm His promises and giftings.
Those who teach against Holy Spirit’s manifestations and operations in the whole of the Church Era are on very hazardous ground. AT best they will look back with grief at what MIGHT HAVE BEEN in their life and ministry had they been more fair-minded, objective and obedient to The Scriptures on such matters.
The death, buriel, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Death=repentance (hating the sinful life that the flesh lives for. Also, remember Paul said, “I die daily”)
Buriel=”buried with Him in baptism unto death”; which Peter made clear to be for the remission of sins.
Resurrection=baptism of the Holy Ghost (”But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.” Rom. 8:11)
Simple..so simple that childlike faith is all it takes to ‘hear the word of God and keep it’.
Obeying the gospel is not our own works. Jesus Christ remits the sins, and has ordained it to take place in baptism in his name. (Acts 2:38; is it from heaven or of men?).
Remember, Peter proclaimed that God has given the Holy Ghost to them that obey him. That is foretold in several places, such as this passage: “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me is loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.” John 14:21. Manifest how? by the infilling of the Holy Ghost.
I disagree with your statements about those who adhere to Cessationism Quix....the following exlains how I see it:
“Cessationism is not anti-supernatural, nor does it deny the possibility of miracles.
When it comes to understanding the cessationist position, the question is not:.... Can God still do miracles in the world today?......Cessationists would be quick to acknowledge that God can act at any time in any way He chooses.
Are the miraculous gifts of the New Testament still in operation in the church today–such that what was the norm in the days of Christ and the apostles ought to be expected today?
To that, all cessationists would answer “no.”
Nor is Cessationism an attack on the Person or work of the Holy Spirit.
In fact, just the opposite is true...... Cessationists are motivated by a desire to see the Holy Spirit glorified...... They are concerned that, by redefining the gifts, the continuationist position cheapens the remarkable nature of those gifts, lessening the truly miraculous working of the Spirit in the earliest stages of the church.
Cessationists are convinced that, by redefining healing, the charismatic position presents a bad testimony to the watching world when the sick are not healed...... By redefining tongues, the charismatic position promotes a type of nonsensical gibberish that runs contrary to anything we know about the biblical gift...... By redefining prophecy, the charismatic position lends credence to those who would claim to speak the very words of God and yet speak error.
This, then, is the primary concern of cessationists: that the honor of the Triune God and His Word be exalted—and that it not be cheapened by watered-down substitutes.
Certainly watered-down substitutes and counterfeits are a problem.
JUST AS THEY WERE IN CHRIST’S DAY 2000 YEARS AGO.
And even He did no miracles in Nazaret, IIRC.
Nevertheless, I still believe that Cessationism
IS a gross insult to Holy Spirit’s declarations in Acts 2 and I Cor 12-14 about what GOD CONSIDERS normative Christian behavior in life and in group meetings.
Folks can rationalize the contrary until the cows come home. Those of us who have experienced the authentic will always know better.
Saying that GOD CAN do whatever He wants BUT THAT HE ‘just happens to CONFORM TO CESSATIONIST’s UNBIBLICAL HERETICAL NOTIONS is absurd doublespeak.
Nevertheless, thanks for your kind reply and tone.
It does NOT say that a few will do these things; it say ALL who believe. It does NOT say pick out a few signs that fit your personality and let them be for you; it says ALL signs are for ALL who believe.
THAT is the point, Quix. When God says ALL who belive can DO things, it is NOT tempting Him to believe what He says.
I'm not nit-picking this. I am trying to understand how something that is PLAINLY stated by Jesus Christ can be taken any other way than the way He said it.
Why didn't Paul lay hands on Timothy and heal him of his often stomach infirmities? There MUST be a reason. Or else Paul was out of the will of God, if he had the gift of healing and did not use that gift to heal. THere IS a reason. But you refuse to see it.
I cannot, in good conscience, just let your words go unanswered. But I cannot, in good conscience, argue with my brother in Christ. HERE is a conundrum my FRiend..
The “REDEFINING”
is the dirty work of the CESSATIONISTS.
We merely take Scripture at face value and try and walk it out.
WHEN WE DO—A MAJORITY OF THE TIME, God honors such fitting faith-filled, obedient applications of His Word . . .
drum roll, with signs following.
Where in that gospel does it say that Christ died FOR OUR SINS?
Curry Blake, IIRC, has 70,000 as in THOUSAND documented cases of significant healings.
Wigglesworth had quite a number as well. The Wigglesworth case I love to hear about is the case of the man who had a stump at the ankle.
The man came up to Wigglesworth and Wigglesworth told him to go buy a PAIR of shoes.
In spite of the incredulity of the shoe salesman, the stub footed man decided that obeying the man of God was a reasonable thing to do.
And, AS HE PUT THE STUB INTO THE SHOE, HIS FOOT RAPIDLY GREW TO FILL THE SHOE.
PRAISE GOD! THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY AND TOMORROW.
I love to listen to Curry Blake.
http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/Healing/JGL/JGL_Ministries.htm
He’s my kind of guy and I think he’s God’s kind of guy as well.
Very practical, brutally honest, high integrity and down to earth. . . . training all manner of people to facilitate God’s miracles far and wide.
What a great thread of debating and searching for truth as well as discovering it. Thank you for your posts as always.
Am in agreement...and following.
**Of course Abraham ACTED on his faith, that’s what real faith is. But it was NOT his acts that declared him righteous before God, it was his faith.**
You seem to contradict yourself in those two sentences, for you admit that acting on faith is REAL FAITH.
Grace through faith. And you just defined REAL faith.
How could Abraham boast of doing what he was told to do? “So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.” Luke 17:10
**Is He not able to know if our faith is genuine?**
Hear’s a verse to measure that by: “For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother”. Matt. 12:50
That’s why obedience to Acts 2:38 is not our own works.
I gotta rest these weary bones,
Lord bless
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