Saul And The Charismatics...

And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)

I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.

… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)

I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?

Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.

But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.

Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)

One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.

Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?

False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.

The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.

These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.

Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.

The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.

At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!

Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!

“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.

Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,

When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)

The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.

“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.

Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)

It isn't necessarily denying the truth....as truth will always cause division Quix, and it may very well not be denial....rather what one "believes" in about what they perceive as truth.

I understand that. Quite so.

It is, however, also Biblical truth that Holy Spirit will persistently try to communicate His Truth to everyone--particularly those calling themselves Christians.

He just rarely shouts vs a quiet still small persistent voice of The Lord.

And, when folks have their consciences seered or clouded over by stubborn human rationalizations and convictions born of the flesh--whether intellectualized hogwash fed by lies from hell or emotional relationship hogwash fed by demonic influence from hell--they may more easily ignore the voice of Holy Spirit.

Nevertheless, CHRIST SAID "MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE." So if folks are not hearing the Voice of The Lord, there's something wrong with their status as sheep . . . or . . . they have not obeyed the last thing The Lord told them and He's waiting for them to catch up.

Rationalizations about Cessationist hogwash are gross deceptions from hell.

Such an UnBiblical perspective is just

1. NOT consistent with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in terms of HIS A) Nature and character
B) Style and methods
C) Purposes and goals
D) Habits and preferences
E) Unchangeableness

2. wholesale inconsistent with His Scriptures Old Testament and New. There's probably a dozen to 4 dozen Scriptures--EACH ONE of which would blow Cessationism out of the water if folks were fair-mindedly objective about them.

or, put another way,

Program a robust computer with very clear objective linguistic criteria for meaning etc. and ask the computer if the Bible supports Cessationism or not. It would declare emphatically that it does not.

3. an outrageous insult to Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit's God Almighty ASSIGNED operations in the CHURCH AGE.

4. Overwhelmingly thick-headed, obtuse, absurd, ANTI-Biblical in terms of the plain language of Acts 2 and I Cor 12-14 about what Paul laid out plainly as NORMATIVE BEHAVIOR and PRACTICES for Christians in life and in Christian meetings.

5. thoroughly IN DENIAL about God's intent as well as God's demonstrable operations in the current era on such scores. WHEN people TAKE GOD AT HIS WORD--signs tend to follow accordingly. When they refuse to take God at His Word, there's few to no signs following.

.
There was a kind of joke in China . . . the further Christians were from a Seminary--the more miracles routinely occurred.

Thanks for your kind reply.

I will ask you 4 questions that I'm sure you are often asked. So often in fact, that they are probably considered absurd. But I would like to see your responses.

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." 1 Tim. 5:23.

Why wasn't Timothy prayed for and hands layed on him to heal his "often infirmities" ? Where were the divine healers when such a great man as Timothy was in need of healing?

2. When was the last time someone in your church handled snakes? Mark 16:18 says "they SHALL". Not some of them. Or only those with enough faith. It says ALL WHO BELIEVE. They SHALL.

3. Who in your church has drank poison and survived? Once again, "they SHALL". Not a few. ALL that believe.

You cannot have it both ways. Take the verses you like and run with them, take the ones you're not so comfortable with and let them lay unanswered. Either ALL THAT BELIEVE ARE ABLE TO DO THESE THINGS, or they are NOT. OR, perhaps, there is another answer to this conundrum.

You ‘don’t move a muscle extremists’ would have everyone stay home, and expect the preacher go and find them, invite themselves in, preach and leave, mission done.

Find even ONE post where we have said that, just one! There is a HUGE difference in saying we are saved by our works and we are saved by our faith. But it takes an openness to the Gospel and the leading of the Holy Spirit to recognize it. One says works save the other says grace saves through faith. Of course Abraham ACTED on his faith, that's what real faith is. But it was NOT his acts that declared him righteous before God, it was his faith. Like that verse from Romans 4:2 I gave earlier said, "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.". Did you SEE that? If Abraham was justified by what he did - moving from Ur, going to an unknown land, sacrificing his son, Isaac - he had something he could boast about but NOT before God. All the righteous deeds we can do can NEVER take away our sins - only the blood of Christ can do that. So what we are trying to communicate here, what Scripture clearly teaches repeatedly, is that our works PROVE our faith, but they do NOT make us righteous. Can you understand the difference???

I am not relying on my works to save me, they CAN'T save me. I am relying upon the gift of God through Christ who makes me righteous through faith in him. It is NOT by the righteous works, deeds, acts, that we have done but according to HIS mercy he saved us. When you say, "The Lord is not going to see your faith if you just sit there and say in your mind, “I accept the Lord”, but refuse his baptism." can you not see how ludicrous that is? Is God not able to see our hearts? Is He not able to know if our faith is genuine? Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks upon the heart. All the baptisms, good works, righteous deeds, etc., that we can do can NEVER take away sin, but FAITH can.

Please don't misunderstand, no one is saying we should not put our faith in action - true faith just does what is right, it seeks to please God - but it is NOT those actions that make us righteous before God. He demands FAITH and without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. Even the act of being water baptized - which is obeying Jesus in confessing him before men - is NOT what makes us righteous before God. PLEASE, please get this point: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Obviously, the issue is not even tongues. The pique HAS to be deeper, more fundamental and more viscerally primitive. Otherwise, there'd not be SOOOOOOOO much hurt, irrational, angry emotion attached . . . making reasonable, mutually understanding dialogue soooo impossible.

I would like you to read back over these exchanges as if you were a bystander, try, please. Then see from where there is anger and bitter spewing. Look where the "hurt", "irrational", "angry" emotion and "bitter spewing" shows up. Read back over the comments that I and Metmom have posted, then reread your own. Who is the one demonstrating the most obvious emotion. Have we really failed to agree with you when warranted? Have we made the exchanges personal or implied satanic origins for what you experience? Have we failed to explain over and over that we know the Holy Spirit is active and working in the lives of Christians today?

What it appears you will only accept as "agreement" with you is if we concede you and anyone else is speaking in the genuine Holy Spirit given, first century, gift of tongues. It sure seems like all else is ignored. But, can you not see that that IS the point of our dialog here? We are stating we do NOT agree that same gift as well as the other sign gifts (healings, prophecy, revealed knowledge) ARE active today and we have said why we believe that. We have given Scripture as well as experiential knowledge - the same things you say you are giving. Obviously we will not come to an agreement on this. On many other things we can, but on this we won't. I can live with that and not let it affect my relationships, can you? Can you allow that others love the Lord every bit as much as you do, that we seek to obey Him and honor Him with our lives? If this subject comes around again, I suppose we may bump heads again, but it is not and has not been personal. The whole world will know we are Christians by our love.

Wellllll, they are absurd in the sense that they are somewhat akin to the questions the RELIGIOUS rulers of Jesus’ dusty pathed days asked Him. Nevertheless . . . I will treat them as though they are asked in good faith seeking an honest good faith answer.

I will ask you 4 questions that I'm sure you are often asked. So often in fact, that they are probably considered absurd. But I would like to see your responses.

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." 1 Tim. 5:23.

Why wasn't Timothy prayed for and hands layed on him to heal his "often infirmities" ? Where were the divine healers when such a great man as Timothy was in need of healing?

Perhaps the same place St Paul was when The Lord told him HIS GRACE WAS SUFFICIENT regarding his “thorn in the flesh!”

Where did I say there are NO MYSTERIES in our Christian walk?

Where did I say ANY of us no longer “see through the glass dimly” but now see all things with crystal clarity?

2. When was the last time someone in your church handled snakes? Mark 16:18 says "they SHALL". Not some of them. Or only those with enough faith. It says ALL WHO BELIEVE. They SHALL.

Absolutely and I believe it entirely. I have come across folks who were bitten by deadly poisonous snakes in missionary situations without ill effect. As we know from what Christ said—DO NOT TEMPT THE LORD YOUR GOD. Deliberate snake handling is absurd. Nevertheless, GOD’S PROMISE IS STILL OPERANT AND EFFECTIVE for fitting cases of snake bite.

3. Who in your church has drank poison and survived? Once again, "they SHALL". Not a few. ALL that believe.

Again, The PROMISES OF GOD are STILL operant and in effect. I’ve talked with folks where enemies of missionaries tried to poison them with no effects. And, I, myself, unwittingly drank some pretty dreadful stuff on the mission field without ill effects. Again, that’s quite different from TEMPTING THE LORD YOUR GOD by drinking poison deliberately to ‘TEST GOD.’ Foolishness is still foolishness regardless of the rationalizations involved.

No conundrum. Like the 3 children of Israel in the fiery furnace . . . OH KING, OUR GOD IS ABLE TO DELIVER US. HOWEVER, IF PER-CHANCE FOR WHATEVER REASON, HE CHOOSES NOT TO IN THIS CASE, WE WILL STILL NOT BOW DOWN TO YOU—IF WE DIE WE DIE. YEA THOUGH HE SLAY ME, YET WILL I SERVE HIM. That’s the proper stance.

God has always shown Himself faithful in behalf of those WHO TRUSTED HIS PROMISES AND HIS GIFTINGS IN FITTING FAITH AND OBEDIENCE.

God is not obligated to support foolishness any more than Peter put up with the foolishness of the bloke wanting to pay money to be able to lay hands on people and have them healed.

The attitude behind such things is foolishness and worse. God does NOT affirm such foolishness.

HE DOES affirm His promises and giftings.

Those who teach against Holy Spirit’s manifestations and operations in the whole of the Church Era are on very hazardous ground. AT best they will look back with grief at what MIGHT HAVE BEEN in their life and ministry had they been more fair-minded, objective and obedient to The Scriptures on such matters.

The death, buriel, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Death=repentance (hating the sinful life that the flesh lives for. Also, remember Paul said, “I die daily”)

Buriel=”buried with Him in baptism unto death”; which Peter made clear to be for the remission of sins.

Resurrection=baptism of the Holy Ghost (”But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.” Rom. 8:11)

Simple..so simple that childlike faith is all it takes to ‘hear the word of God and keep it’.

Obeying the gospel is not our own works. Jesus Christ remits the sins, and has ordained it to take place in baptism in his name. (Acts 2:38; is it from heaven or of men?).

Remember, Peter proclaimed that God has given the Holy Ghost to them that obey him. That is foretold in several places, such as this passage: “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me is loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.” John 14:21. Manifest how? by the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

I disagree with your statements about those who adhere to Cessationism Quix....the following exlains how I see it:

“Cessationism is not anti-supernatural, nor does it deny the possibility of miracles.

When it comes to understanding the cessationist position, the question is not:.... Can God still do miracles in the world today?......Cessationists would be quick to acknowledge that God can act at any time in any way He chooses.

Are the miraculous gifts of the New Testament still in operation in the church today–such that what was the norm in the days of Christ and the apostles ought to be expected today?

To that, all cessationists would answer “no.”

Nor is Cessationism an attack on the Person or work of the Holy Spirit.

In fact, just the opposite is true...... Cessationists are motivated by a desire to see the Holy Spirit glorified...... They are concerned that, by redefining the gifts, the continuationist position cheapens the remarkable nature of those gifts, lessening the truly miraculous working of the Spirit in the earliest stages of the church.

Cessationists are convinced that, by redefining healing, the charismatic position presents a bad testimony to the watching world when the sick are not healed...... By redefining tongues, the charismatic position promotes a type of nonsensical gibberish that runs contrary to anything we know about the biblical gift...... By redefining prophecy, the charismatic position lends credence to those who would claim to speak the very words of God and yet speak error.

This, then, is the primary concern of cessationists: that the honor of the Triune God and His Word be exalted—and that it not be cheapened by watered-down substitutes.

Certainly watered-down substitutes and counterfeits are a problem.

JUST AS THEY WERE IN CHRIST’S DAY 2000 YEARS AGO.

And even He did no miracles in Nazaret, IIRC.

Nevertheless, I still believe that Cessationism

IS a gross insult to Holy Spirit’s declarations in Acts 2 and I Cor 12-14 about what GOD CONSIDERS normative Christian behavior in life and in group meetings.

Folks can rationalize the contrary until the cows come home. Those of us who have experienced the authentic will always know better.

Saying that GOD CAN do whatever He wants BUT THAT HE ‘just happens to CONFORM TO CESSATIONIST’s UNBIBLICAL HERETICAL NOTIONS is absurd doublespeak.

Nevertheless, thanks for your kind reply and tone.

But those statements that Christ made in Mark 16:15-18 were NOT tempting God. They were affirmative statements. "Shall" does not mean "maybe" or "should" or "can"- if you have enough faith. And they do not mean it is tempting God to perform something that HE says can be performed by ALL THAT BELIEVE. It is a very positive statement meaning it WILL happen.

It does NOT say that a few will do these things; it say ALL who believe. It does NOT say pick out a few signs that fit your personality and let them be for you; it says ALL signs are for ALL who believe.

THAT is the point, Quix. When God says ALL who belive can DO things, it is NOT tempting Him to believe what He says.

I'm not nit-picking this. I am trying to understand how something that is PLAINLY stated by Jesus Christ can be taken any other way than the way He said it.

Why didn't Paul lay hands on Timothy and heal him of his often stomach infirmities? There MUST be a reason. Or else Paul was out of the will of God, if he had the gift of healing and did not use that gift to heal. THere IS a reason. But you refuse to see it.

I cannot, in good conscience, just let your words go unanswered. But I cannot, in good conscience, argue with my brother in Christ. HERE is a conundrum my FRiend..

Curry Blake, IIRC, has 70,000 as in THOUSAND documented cases of significant healings.

Wigglesworth had quite a number as well. The Wigglesworth case I love to hear about is the case of the man who had a stump at the ankle.

The man came up to Wigglesworth and Wigglesworth told him to go buy a PAIR of shoes.

In spite of the incredulity of the shoe salesman, the stub footed man decided that obeying the man of God was a reasonable thing to do.

And, AS HE PUT THE STUB INTO THE SHOE, HIS FOOT RAPIDLY GREW TO FILL THE SHOE.

PRAISE GOD! THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY AND TOMORROW.

I love to listen to Curry Blake.

http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/Healing/JGL/JGL_Ministries.htm

He’s my kind of guy and I think he’s God’s kind of guy as well.

Very practical, brutally honest, high integrity and down to earth. . . . training all manner of people to facilitate God’s miracles far and wide.

**Of course Abraham ACTED on his faith, that’s what real faith is. But it was NOT his acts that declared him righteous before God, it was his faith.**

You seem to contradict yourself in those two sentences, for you admit that acting on faith is REAL FAITH.

Grace through faith. And you just defined REAL faith.

How could Abraham boast of doing what he was told to do? “So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.” Luke 17:10

**Is He not able to know if our faith is genuine?**

Hear’s a verse to measure that by: “For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother”. Matt. 12:50

That’s why obedience to Acts 2:38 is not our own works.

I gotta rest these weary bones,
Lord bless

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