Posted on 04/29/2012 3:06:06 PM PDT by NYer
I don’t think it was from this forum.
As I understand it it was *Catholic Answers Forums*.
They didn’t like someone defending Evangelicals against attacks on Evangelicals by Catholics.
They are whining the same thing the Mormons do. Post the truth about them, using their sources, and suddenly you’re a *hater* or an *anti-*.
For some reason this country has turned into a bunch of whiney cry babies who can’t distinguish between disagreement with something and *hate*, so instead of actually engaging in debate or discussion, cry *hater* or *anti-* and ban the person as a troll.
We cannot diminish the torment which the Scriptures warn await the lost who die in their sins. And which description is merely a negative one, that of separation from God, which the lost know now, nor even the privation of anything positive, which helps pacify our carnal man (but gives us occasion us to praise God by the Spirit).
Rather, while the Lake of fire that of totally negative privation of good things, it is also a realization of the wrath of God in the positive sense, that of weeping and gnashing of teeth, (Mt. 8:12) and longing for one drop of water, which the rich man in the true story the Lord told yet does. (Lk. 19:16-33) Thus the devil, who is quite separate from God already, shall be tormented day and night forever, shall all those who died believing his deceptions, in accordance with the grace they spurned, and the degree of sinfulness. (Rv. 20:10-15; cf. Lk. 12:48)
“And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” (Revelation 14:11)
But i need not see Jesus as suffering the equivalent of eternity in Hell, nor that the scapegoat and sacrifice of the yearly atonement of the O.T. (Lv. 16) did so either, but as becoming sin for us and making the atoning sacrifice by which God could justly yet mercifully forgive us our innumerable sins. Thanks be to God.
“Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;” To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” (Romans 3:25-26)
As concerns fear of eternal torment and its nature, it is incontrovertible that the appeal to fear is a valid one, else the Lord Jesus would not have warned the impenitent of the fire that is not quenched, and required crucifying what causes us to sin in heart or deed, (which is ultimately the “old man,” and i need to yet be better engaged daily i that endeavor, and to overcome evil with good).
However, that means of persuasion, while it is graciously provided in appealing to the self-preservation instinct of carnal man who is dead in his sins, is not to be the real or prime motivation for service, but while it typically begins there, grace is purposed to bring about obedience motivated by the love which is of and for God, which has the happiness of its Object as its motivation, and thus it also seeks to love His brethren as well as the lost.
In fact, in so doing, the believers motivation is not to be primarily to save souls from Hell, though compassion is a Christian virtue, but to see them repent and live a life of faith obedience to the glory of God.
Fully mature, the Christians only motivation is this love, for,
“There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.” We love him, because he first loved us.” If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?” And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.” (1 John 4:18-21)
“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5)
“No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.” (1 John 4:12)
Now to live it, which gap needs closing.
Calling another poster a liar, heretic, cultist, drunk, bigot, X-basher or some other personal insult ends the discussion and turns it into a childish game of “can you top this?”
Who needs it!
These threads are not debates, they are discussions and arguments (not to be confused with quarrels). Debates are games with strategies, tactics, teams, rules and human judges. Arguments are about revealing the truth. You ought to be lamenting the absence of logic and reasoning in these arguments instead of the "high-fiving" of gotcha comments and falsehoods. When it is the truth that wins, we all win. When the truth is the victim we all lose.
As in the past....I’ll continue to ignore your posts to me.
NL:”I invite you to provide your definition of “almost all” for me. I have gone back through your entire posting history since the first of the year. I have seen hundreds of posts that about the Catholic Church (RCs, RCC, “they, etc.) While I have seen hundreds of posts that I find to be dismissive, disdainful, rude, insulting, and completely fallacious about Catholics, the Church and its doctrines, the one thing I did not see was any citation of the Catechism or references to it. “
**************************************************************************************
The source I overwhelmingly use to support myself is Scripture (which FWIW, the RCC itself claims to have written) and I post those in blue and/or red for ease of identifying. I have used the Catholic Bible on occasion and any site I use for Catholic doctrine has overwhelmingly been vatican.va. There have been a few other sources that I’ve used which I’ve seen Catholics themselves reference.
I do not and never have posted from sites listed on the RM’s homepage as banned.
Here’s one post where I quoted the CATHOLIC Bible.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2871838/posts?page=92#92
Here’s a post from a Catholic site...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2841954/posts?page=191#191
Here I posted canons from the Council of Trent at hanover.edu.....
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2841259/posts?page=237#237
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2828283/posts?page=269#269
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2825733/posts?page=475#475
Here is a post to a FR thread posted by a FRoman Catholic.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2834651/posts?page=1066#1066
Here are posts citing several different Catholic sources...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2833447/posts?page=226#226
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2833447/posts?page=74#74
From vatican.va.... (in January)- (mostly posted in green for ease of distinguishing my words from the CCC)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2836307/posts?page=168#168
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2834651/posts?page=774#774
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2834651/posts?page=674#674
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2834651/posts?page=591#591
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2834651/posts?page=442#442
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2833447/posts?page=283#283
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2833447/posts?page=232#232
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2831799/posts?page=654#654
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2827870/posts?page=192#192
If you did not see any citations or references to the CCC perhaps you need to look harder. The above links support my claim.
Thank you!
So nothing has changed. They simply hate The Truth - there is a reason, they don't consider God's Holy Spirit inspired the Final Authority and they embrace man-made teachings/doctrine, i.e., the catechism or koran.
For some reason this country has turned into a bunch of whiney cry babies who can’t distinguish between disagreement with something and *hate*, so instead of actually engaging in debate or discussion, cry *hater* or *anti-* and ban the person as a troll.
Yep, the thin skin set - more so, when The Truth gets to be too much for them. They wallow in deception so they are only 'at ease' with deception.
How often have we seen that happen? Information from Catholic sites is accused of being from an anti Catholic site. I’m almost embarrassed for them at times.
You claimed to "almost always cite the Catechism. You have answered my question; for you "almost always" means nine out of over six hundred. Thank you.
Peace be with you.
NO, not from here, which does not operate out of the hyper protectionist mode in religious discussions, where atheists even remained after blatant attacks on God, the Bible, and especially evangelicals, but on Catholics answers. I would be glad to send you the exchange.
I know, how could they discuss the issues? More like coming here to unload their backpack of venom.
but on Catholics answers. p That's the part that stumped me, since when do Catholics have answers, answers to what? Seems it always deny deny deny or you don't understand, not taught properly.
I would be glad to send you the exchange.
Thanks but no thank you.
I quoted from these sites, often as examples of prayers to saints that Catholics deny they pray. For teachings about Catholicism, I use primarily the CCC.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM
http://www.history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/
http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?s=31
http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm
http://www.catholic-saints.info/catholic-prayers/prayer-to-saint-christopher.htm
http://www.ourcatholicprayers.com/prayers-to-st-anthony.html
http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu67.htm
http://www.turnbacktogod.com/should-we-pray-to-virgin-mary/
Six hundred?
Here. You might find this link helpful.
http://www.math.com/school/subject1/lessons/S1U1L4GL.html
And of course, we’ll just ignore the fact that I refuted your contention that I didn’t use the CCC after you basically accused me of lying about using it.
Not.....
My dear Sister in Christ, I can only go by what you post, not what you intend. "Almost always", "Often"? You cited the Catechism nine time times by your own count from a time frame in which you posted about 600 posts related to the Church. I will concede that the number is greater than 0, but it would appear that it isn't my math skills that are in question. Perhaps we can both agree that your "almost always" and "often" are text book examples of hyperbole.
I don't expect you to adhere or approve of all Catholic doctrine, that is your prerogative. I simply ask that your criticisms and disagreements be based upon actual Church teachings. I am not defending or proselytizing Catholic doctrines, only correcting their representation in these forums. I'm sure you will agree that not every anti-Catholic is inerrant in their interpretation of Scripture so how can we expect them to be inerrant with respect to Catholic doctrine and Apostolic Tradition.
Peace be with you.
I thank God that He opened my spiritual eyes and allowed me to escape from the false and accursed gospel and into the light of the truth. All we can do is to continue to speak the truth in love and give the glory to God when the Holy Spirit turns a heart of stone into a heart of flesh. One plants, another waters, but God gives the increase. Amen!
How can you complain about being dismissed as "hateful, anti-Catholic, dismissive, disdainful, rude, insulting, and completely fallacious" and then in the same post make a statement like that? If you expect Catholics to cheerfully accept the kind of ridicule and abuse that is poured out on them on a daily basis you don't understand human psychology any better than you understand Catholic theology.
The Church does not teach that Salvation cannot be achieved by non-Catholics, but only through those things provided by the Church. The Church does not, cannot and never has claimed the ability to condemn anyone to hell. The Church does not deny that evil deeds have been done by those claiming to be Catholic or acting in the name of the Church but the Church itself and its doctrines is not evil or accursed. The repeated accusations that it is evil and accursed are what damages your credibility and precipitates the kind of response you are complaining about. So, in the name of God whom we both claim to serve and worship, let's be honest about what the Catholic Church is and is not and what your church is and is not.
May God continue to Bless you.
When I post a source to support comments about Catholic doctrine, I go to the CCC first.
It is the one I am most likely to use.
You were pwnd.....
No amount of twisting stats is going to help bail you out of that one. It’s there for all to see.
If you want to believe that 9/600 is proof of "almost always" and "often" who am I to argue. It certainly isn't the most bizarre thing I have been asked to believe on these threads. PWND-on in the joy and love of Jesus.
It wasn't addressed to any Catholic, was it? It was my own PERSONAL feelings and I hardly think you are the one to be castigating another for being honest! I read the comments from those in your group and no more than a smidgen have any compunction at all with being condemning, rude and hurtful and insulting. I'm sorry if you were offended by my honest comment but it was not directed at you personally and it reiterated what I had already said in an earlier post where Paul clearly states that any other gospel that is not what he had preached is accursed by God. I reject the Gospel the Roman Catholic Church teaches.
The Church does not teach that Salvation cannot be achieved by non-Catholics, but only through those things provided by the Church.
The Roman Catholic Church may not now teach that salvation cannot be achieved by non-Catholics, but they certainly DID at one time state that and there were more than a few "ex-cathedra" bulls and statements WITH anathemas along with them by more than a few "infallible" Popes. How many "heretics" were sent to their ruin and/or death because they refused to obey those edicts? Even now, the wording of the latest edict (Vatican II - Lumen Gentium) hedges around the same sense when it says:
14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.
15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.
16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention. (http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html)
You say, "The Church does not, cannot and never has claimed the ability to condemn anyone to hell.", yet it is plainly stated in past and present doctrines that it is only through the Catholic Church that anyone CAN be saved. Rather than preach what Scripture does, that we are saved by grace through faith in the work of Jesus Christ for us and by receiving Him as Savior we are adopted into the family of God which IS the church (small 'c'), the Catholic Church insists that the physical organization headquartered in Rome is the "Church" (capital 'C') and no one can be saved outside of "her". It is only through "her" sacraments that one can be in union with God in a "state" of grace.
Though the documents of Lumen Gentium state the desire for "unity" of the Body of Christ, they really intend for ALL professing Christians to be under the Pope of Rome and participating in all the same activities and doctrines. The unity of the Body of Christ that Scripture speaks about already IS unified because we are all members of the one spiritual community, one spiritual house of God, indwelled by the Holy Spirit. I do not disagree with everything your church teaches and I have said this before many times. But on the most critical doctrine of all, salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone, I will continue to defend. My intent is not to injure but to speak the truth. Sometimes truth hurts.
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