Posted on 03/22/2015 5:47:53 PM PDT by grumpa
WHEN IS (WAS) THE GREAT TRIBULATION?
by Charles S. Meek
“And they will deliver YOU up to tribulation. . . .” (Matthew 24:9)
“For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.” (Luke 21:22)
“For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole EARTH.” (Luke 21:35)
The Olivet Discourse contains the greatest body of prophecy in the New Testament outside of Revelation. It is found in the parallel passages of Matthew 24/25, Mark 13, and Luke 21. The above passages in the Olivet Discourse are referring to the Great Tribulation at Jesus’ Parousia (his effectual divine presence in judgment). Was Jesus speaking of the entire globe as we know it today, or was He speaking of the world in which He and his contemporaries lived, that is, Judea?
The word translated as “earth” in Luke 21 is the Greek word ge. The online Blue Letter Bible interlinear gives several meanings for this word, including: (a) the inhabited earth, (b) country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, or region. As always, context and audience relevance determine how to interpret the Bible. Let’s take a look at another time we find this word in the immediate context of the Olivet Discourse:
Matthew 23:35—“That upon YOU may come all the righteous blood shed upon the EARTH [ge], from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias.” This is a clear reference to the Jewish people, and not to all the people on the globe.
In addition to Luke 21:35, Luke’s version of the Olivet Discourse contains the same word “ge” in another verse—verse 21: “There shall be great distress in the LAND [ge].” Jesus is obviously speaking about Jerusalem, which is confirmed by the further context:
In Luke 21:20-21 Jesus tells his followers that they will know when the Tribulation is upon them by the appearance of armies around Jerusalem, and that they can escape the Tribulation by fleeing to the mountains. These instructions limit the extent of the Tribulation to the immediate region—not the whole globe as we think of it today. It matches perfectly with the events surrounding the invasion of Judea by the Roman army in AD 66-70, at which time over a million Jews were killed and the temple demolished.
In the Olivet Discourse, we find several clear time restrictions: (1) At least seven times Jesus restricts the events to those to whom He is speaking, by such phrases as “When YOU see. . . .” Consider: Matthew 24:6, 9, 15, 33, 34, 44; Luke 21:20. (2) For further emphasis, Jesus said, “For THIS IS THE TIME of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.” Luke 21:22 (3) Just in case they were too dense to get it, He emphasized, “Truly I tell you, THIS GENERATION will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.” Luke 21:32 (4) And, if it there was any lingering doubt about when it would happen, He said, “Pray that you may be able to escape all that is ABOUT TO happen.” (Luke 21:36, see the NIV or literal translations such as the YLT)
But wait. Jesus said it would be the worst tribulation ever (Matthew 24:21). Wasn’t the holocaust worse? Jesus’ frequent use of hyperbole aside, in terms of Jewish history AND covenant, the events surrounding AD 70 were indeed, without exaggeration, the most horrific days ever to befall God’s people.
What about Revelation? Well, John said he was in the tribulation WHEN HE WAS WRITING Revelation! See Revelation 1:9 and 2:9-10. Dozens of scholars are persuaded that Revelation was written in the 60’s AD. So John’s “tribulation” could have been referring to either the Christian persecution under Nero during AD 64-68 or to the devastating events of the Jewish-Roman War in AD 66-70. In either case, this is consistent with Jesus’ numerous “this generation” statements.
Conclusion: The events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem as predicted by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse were restricted by Him to the region and the people of Judea in the first century. This was the Great Tribulation. There is NO indication in God’s Word that it will ever happen again. To read a future “great tribulation” into the text does violence to the promises of Jesus.
For more information, see my websites:
https://prophecyquestions.wordpress.com
http://www.faithfacts.org/world-religions-and-theology/the-biblical-last-days
https://www.facebook.com/EvangelicalPreterism
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The Revelation scares the crap out of Gary DeMar, R.J. Rushdoony, Gary North, Greg Bahnsen, David Chilton, and Andrew Sandlin!
So much so that they try to imagine their way out of the realities of it.
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I will defer to what my pastor said about Revelation, that it is like a picture, showing patterns and symbols.
In regard to patterns, he said the tribulation that Christians went thru under Nero is a pattern, and the tribulations down thru the ages, during WWII, and to this day, fit the pattern.
Christ is reigning now.
OP asked about the tribulation, when is (was) the great tribulation.
“1000 years” isn’t a literal span of time; IIRC that’s in the book of Revelations, which has symbols and patterns.
Christ defeated Satan & his minions at Calvary.
He reigns now.
‘Christ appear to everyone ‘ is in the book of Revelations also, at Judgement Day.
OT prophecy shows the path to Christ.
Shows how God made it happen through the Israelite nation and remnant.
Matthew starts with the lineage of the King of Kings.
That bunch is still going to be gathering stones to stone prostitutes anticipating dominionism when Christ returns.
John A.T. Robinson pegged the date of the NT books at before 70 AD.
“More Than Conquerors” is the book we are studying in adult Sunday school at the orthodox Presbyterian church I attend.
It does not agree with the Darby dispensationalism/ ‘end time prophecy’ view.
Your pastor should read it occasionally. Reality fits the word of God, not your poor, confused pastor.
The seals of the Revelation are a description of what the world has had to go through for the past 2000 years to end Satan's strangle hold on the Earth.
John described it as breaking the seals holding Satan's deed to the Earth closed. The work is not yet done, there are yet two more seals to be broken in the short time that remains before Satan is removed from the presence of God and cast down to Earth.
That is when the Tribulation of God's elect will begin. The man of sin will make Nero and Hitler look like sunday school teachers in an Arminian church.
The only way to avoid that tribulation is to emulate the “church at Philadelphia” by keeping God's commandments (the ones that your nicolaitan pastor probably says don't apply to us).
Revelation 3:
[2] Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
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DeMar et al came after Darby, so DeMar is recent too.
I don’t hold with his view that humans’ endeavor can affect when Judgment Day happens.
That is up to God.
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>> “It does not agree with the Darby dispensationalism/ ‘end time prophecy’ view.” <<
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Only one of the people you have pinged actually holds that view.
All but one of the NT books were written before 70 AD.
The one that is the subject of this thread was noted by the Apostle John’s disciple Polycarp to have been written after 90 AD.
He makes way more sense than Robinson, or any of his ilk.
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So where does all the sin in the world come from today? Is Satan in chains currently?
“...The only way to avoid that tribulation is to emulate the “church at Philadelphia” by keeping God’s commandments (the ones that your nicolaitan pastor probably says don’t apply to us). ...”
The Law of God is read in my church every Sunday, and we are reminded to keep it.
Also we are reminded of Christ’s death and resurrection, and His work of saving us.
We have touched on many topics, other than “when is (was)the great tribulation”.
Looking at that question, all I can say is, agree to disagree on it.
Salvation is by believing in Christ, not when the great tribulation happened/will happen.
LOL! How many people did he show from history that Nero banished to Patmos rather than simply having killed? Hint,,,,he didn't. Anyone who thinks Revelation was written any time before the 90s is delusional.
Anyone who gives credibility to DeMar, Rushdooney, or any of that crowd doesn't know either history or scripture.
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It would take a month of sundays to read all of the law of God.
Rev 22:14
“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”
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I don’t agree with DeMar et al in regards to their saying ‘we Christians need to make a theocracy and then Jesus can return’.
Agreeing with him on when Revelation was written or that the all prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD is equally as absurd.
I think the problem lies with the view we have of time; how can a Christian be forgiven but still wrestle with sin & do things that are sin.
Revelations is symbolic with respect to amount of years.
1000 years is a metaphor, not a literal “1000 years”.
Sin is real; its a residual, as it were, from the Fall ( “all have sinned & fallen short”) and originated with Lucifer/Satan.
Born again Christians still have sin/can sin, but they also have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit on account of Christ’s work at Calvary.
Satan is limited/chained/short-leashed; a beaten adversary.
Editor-surveyor
Like I said earlier, we will just have to agree to disagree about
1) when the Great Tribulation occurs.
2) when Revelations was written.
I was just pointing out that there have always been folks who interpreted the events in Revelation as future events, even going back as far as 160 AD. It’s not a new interpretation, and just because some have disagreed with the future events position, it doesn’t invalidate the position.
Clarification : our salvation was done by Christ; we are saved by faith/believing in Him.
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