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Rejecting Mariology
Two-Edged Sword ^ | February 05, 2007 | Lee

Posted on 03/23/2015 2:14:57 PM PDT by RnMomof7

It is often claimed the Mary was heralded by the Patristics as a woman full of grace, perhaps sinless, and deserving our veneration above other departed saints as the Mother of the Church. This is not the case. While I do freely admit that the word Patristic can be used to cover a variety of ages, I prefer to use it to the pre-nicaean leaders of the church. Let us start with them, and we can move on from there.

In the Apostolic Fathers, as the first century leaders are often called, one sees little to no mention of Mary at all. Clement of Rome leaves her out of his epistle completely. This is a glaring omission for ‘Mary full of grace’ since Clement’s entire letter is about submission, faith, and peace. Clement uses as examples of Christian living Paul, Peter, Moses, Abraham, David, and several martyrs in addition to Jesus Christ. Beyond that he even uses a few women as examples. Rahab gets the most ink as a wonderful example of faith, two women killed by Nero are mentioned, Esther get a paragraph, as does Judith from the Apocrypha. But no Mary. First century writers seem to view Mary as a good believer, but nothing more, much like Protestants today.

Second century writers turn up the first exaltation references to Mary, but even these are over stated. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian all try to draw Mary as the anti-type of Eve as Jesus was of Adam. This leads to some grandiose statements about Mary, but the ancient mind often thought more typologically and allegorically then we do today. These men did not have any allusions about Mary being above sin (original or actual). In fact Irenaeus condemns Mary as a sinner for her role in the Wedding of Cana arguing that Jesus rebukes her for her presumptuous pride. Tertullian along with other second century leaders like Origen and later writers like Basil the Great and Chrysostom (4th century) all ascribe to Mary the sins of maternal vanity, anxiety, and doubt and state that the ‘sword’ that pierces Mary’s soul in Luke 2:35 are these sins. Hardly a high view of Mary despite their typological attempts.

The rise of Mary really follows the rise of Monasticism and the encroachment of Neo-platonism into Christianity. The third and fourth centuries see apocryphal texts like the Gospel of the birth of Mary, which were all condemned by the church as a whole, but eventually the teachings of these books would be folded into the Mariology of the Roman church. The asceticism of the monastic orders arising from their neo-platonic view of the flesh exalted Mary as the ultimate example and claimed for her perpetual virginity. This helped give their life-style a bigger backing as well as giving them a patron saint.

The controversies of the 5th century about Christ led to Mary being the Mother of God as a test of orthodoxy. Mother of God was not meant to convey anything at all about Mary, but rather something about the natures of Jesus. However, it would come to be twisted to elevate Mary into something higher than merely human. The first person to actually advocate Mary did not have any actual or original sin was Pelegius, the free-will opponent of Augustine. During this time also one must remember that Rome was destroyed by the uneducated and pagan barbarians. As the centers of learning were destroyed the educated clergy could no longer restrain phrases like ‘Mother of God’ and Mariology became Marialotry took on a life of its own as the masses carried Mary to extremes she was never meant to reach. By the time of Gregory the Great, Bishop of Rome, Mary was installed in her current position for the Roman church. Gregory freely instructed his missionaries to the barbarians not to destroy pagan temples, but rename them and the statues in them. Many pagan temples were to women, and Mary worship was well on its way.

Thus, I do not think Protestantism needs a Mariology at all. Mary is a wonderful example of saintly piety and faith as are many people in the Bible. She should not be avoided for she is the mother of our Lord. But we must remember, as I believe the Reformed tradition does, she is simply one of his disciples no better than any other believer in Christ. This is, after all, exactly what our Lord teaches in Matthew 12:47-50.

‘Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.’



TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: christ; mary; worship
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To: CynicalBear
The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.[Cardinal Newman - Development of Christian Doctrine, pg 373]

Just WOW!!!

301 posted on 03/25/2015 7:28:11 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Indeed you are badly mistaken if you think that the faithful holy ones who have gone on before us are now NOT living members of the Body of Christ and are LESS able to care for us and intercede for us than they were when they lived on this earth! It's a real head-scratcher.

Here is where I disagree. Yes they are living but that's all the Word says about them. Who is to say what it is like to be in the presence of the Lord? You and yours imagine, and it is only imagination, that they are very similar in goals and focus as when "alive". I imagine it is "no eye has seen and no mind has conceived" and "words not legal to utter" INCREDIBLY FANTASTIC to the point that even if one could observe the world, one wouldn't want to. In heaven we are not even married yet the lower Catholic imagination of that is like an episode of Medium, where the dead are sad and want to be with their corporeal loved ones. It trivialized glory in eternity in the presence of the Lord.

302 posted on 03/25/2015 7:37:36 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
>>Frankly, my jaw drops when I realize that there are people who think that ALL these ancient Christian communities have been ALL wrong, ALL the time<<

Six of the seven "churches" addressed in Revelation had already strayed to the point of being rejected by Christ. The twisting of the words of scripture by the Catholic Church is what is jaw dropping.

303 posted on 03/25/2015 7:41:44 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear
And you can't even see that straying local churches were being confronted and corrected by Apostolic Church authority, namely John!!

Talk about not seeing what's right in front of your face!

304 posted on 03/25/2015 7:44:40 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." - 1 Timothy 3:15)
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To: DungeonMaster

Just wow is right. It’s totally disregarding what God said. Yet they can’t see what happened to the Israelites when they did the same thing.


305 posted on 03/25/2015 7:46:44 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
>>And you can't even see that straying local churches were being confronted and corrected by Apostolic Church authority, namely John!!<<

John was simply taking dictation.

306 posted on 03/25/2015 7:48:26 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear
John is speaking (or writing) to the seven churches of Asia:

Revelation 1:7 - John to the seven churches which are in Asia. Grace be unto you and peace from him that is, and that was, and that is to come, and from the seven spirits which are before his throne"

Right in front of your face.

307 posted on 03/25/2015 7:55:50 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." - 1 Timothy 3:15)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Revelation 1:1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Consistently trying to give credit to man is not going to turn out well for Catholics.

308 posted on 03/25/2015 8:02:24 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: ealgeone
The opinion of anyone who posts this nonsense will not be debated.

By you, at any rate? :) Have a good day!
309 posted on 03/25/2015 9:14:01 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: All

I’ll have to apologize: I’m getting swamped with work, right now, and FR needs to take a back-seat. I have off from work, next week, so I might(?) be able to write a bit, then. In the meantime, thanks for the chat!


310 posted on 03/25/2015 10:09:07 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: MHGinTN
...do we err in thinking that is 'create a place' rather than rearrange things for a place to receive us to?

I don't think it matters much.

311 posted on 03/25/2015 1:10:39 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: dartuser

or any OTHER data.


312 posted on 03/25/2015 1:11:02 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: MHGinTN

And, uninteresting ones as well!


313 posted on 03/25/2015 1:11:58 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
Go ahead and rationalize it.

Still peddling your crap; I see.


STA apparently CHOOSES to give a false imprssion every time he writes:
 
"If he will not listen to the church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector." --Jesus
 
 

Matthew 18:15-17 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 

15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.

17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

314 posted on 03/25/2015 1:15:15 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: paladinan
I’ll have to apologize: I’m getting swamped with work, right now, and FR needs to take a back-seat.

What?

You are working for someone; using THEIR time to chat on FR??

315 posted on 03/25/2015 1:17:38 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: verga
Nope...you "fixed" nothing - not even close. It is curious how many times the SAME false opinions - disguised as "truth" - are disputed by genuine facts yet some continue to spout them as if they were oblivious to it all and don't have a clue about WHY they are wrong. Perhaps the reason is they cannot bring themselves to admit their "church" is fallible about anything so they simply have to continue to defend them no matter how stupid it makes them look to others. We continue to pray for them, though.
316 posted on 03/25/2015 1:18:03 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Elsie

The Catholic Church didnt even exist when Jesus said that, it took a Roman emperor to create it. Nothing like the church Jesus spoke of.


317 posted on 03/25/2015 1:20:21 PM PDT by GeronL (Shrub Scouts, root them out and make them whine)
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To: Elsie

Don’t be a complete, inflammatory jerk, Elsie. Some of us actually take work home, on a regular basis. If you don’t, then... well... bully for you.


318 posted on 03/25/2015 1:29:07 PM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: paladinan

You forgot to say “I think”.


319 posted on 03/25/2015 1:32:06 PM PDT by Legatus (I think, therefore you're out of your mind)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
As for us Catholics, we will “listen to the church,” “the pillar and foundation of truth,” as Christ commanded.

A pillar holds something up... in this case that quote means Christ..

Does Paul say that in his absence, the church of Ephesus can get along just fine without him since the church is a pillar and foundation of truth? That Ephesian Christians can learn everything they need to learn from the Magisterium or teaching office of the Church? No, he says nothing of the kind. To the contrary, he is writing to them so that they will know how to conduct themselves in church. They aren’t getting this from the church. They are getting this from him. From his teaching to the church (e.g. the household code in 1 Tim 2:1-3:13).

He is writing them because he can’t teach them in person—at the moment. But in any case, their source of sound doctrine comes from him. Not from the church, as a pillar and pedestal of truth.

In context, 1 Tim 3:15 is the very antithesis of a prooftext for ecclesiastical authority.

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2008/09/is-church-pillar-pedestal-of-truth.html

320 posted on 03/25/2015 1:42:41 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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