Free Republic 4th Quarter Fundraising Target: $88,000 Receipts & Pledges to-date: $14,514
16%  
Woo hoo!! And the first 16% is in!! Thank you all very much!! God bless.

Posts by Blogger

Brevity: Headers | « Text »
  • What Was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    10/11/2017 7:35:56 PM PDT · 214 of 215
    Blogger to Elsie

    I’m done with you Elsie. Have a good evening.

  • What Was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    10/10/2017 4:22:16 PM PDT · 209 of 215
    Blogger to Elsie

    You’ve distorted the words of people arguing with you by comparing them to Mormons and the like, so don’t play coy.

    Yes, people distort Scripture. Yes, some parts are hard to understand. The Holy Spirit teaches us as we dig into these truths. Some parts we won’t understand until heaven. On this part, it is a secondary matter that I have a studied opinion over and you have another opinion over. That’s fine. We can disagree.

  • What Was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    10/10/2017 4:14:24 PM PDT · 208 of 215
    Blogger to mdmathis6

    I don’t disagree with you on what is of primary importance. Really don’t disagree with you at all. Church tradition is one thing, but we see the use of Rephaim in Scripture. It is all a theory because the Bible is not explicit. However, when you put several passages together they start to tell a story. External sources also corroborate the story, but you can get it straight from Scripture, or at least key pieces of it.

    In terms of Genesis 6 and blaming man, I think God blamed man for his part. But I also think he put the angels in chains in Tartarus. It was a very bad thing that transpired.

    I don’t think we will see exactly the same thing today, but I do think some of the genetic manipulation and postulation we see in transhumanism is an attempt to reverse the curse and create man in man’s own image.

    We certainly are in for seeing some strange things indeed.

  • What Was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    10/10/2017 9:34:51 AM PDT · 203 of 215
    Blogger to mdmathis6

    This matter is not one of soteriology. At least not directly. There is a tangential debate as to whether salvation is possible for a hybrid being. I don’t believe that for the generation of hybrids spawned by the angels that it is. I believe that they, and not fallen angels, are demons. Nowhere in Scripture does it call angels demons. We assume that it is the angels who fell who are demons. I don’t. I base this upon the change of meaning in the word Rephaim within the Old Testament. Still, the whole matter is secondary. But, it is not unimportant.

    I believe that to fully understand prophecy and the world you are in, you need to understand Genesis 6. I think the repercussions ring throughout the OT and are alluded to multiple times in the new, including by Christ. It’s important to dig and not just dismiss. Jesus had a message for us concerning the times of Noah and the times of Lot and it’s good not to just gloss over that message.

  • What Was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    10/10/2017 9:31:00 AM PDT · 202 of 215
    Blogger to Elsie
    What are you suggesting with the quote from Peter? If you are suggesting that I am ignorant or unlearned, I am not. Nor am I unstudied on this particular topic. I've spent many hours comparing Scripture with Scripture. If you do not see it, then fine. Distorting Scripture to try to insult your debate opponent is not a wise or Christian thing to do. Knock it off and try to debate with some civility and Christian charity.

    We know from scripture that the Anakim, the Rephaim, and the Amorites were all giant tribes that were targeted for destruction. if you need references that they were giants I can provide. But, I'm assuming you can research this yourself as well. Other tribes like Hittites etc., have been called giants by secular or other biblical researchers, but as I see no evidence in Scripture, I leave them open as either and don't count them in the giant category. That aside, the evidence of a special class of people who were also very tall in stature and very cursed exists in Scripture. Now either God doesn't like tall people or there is something else. God is not an arbitrary genocidal maniac. The angel theory answers this question and is in harmony with the rest of Scripture. The Sethite leaves gaping holes that have to also be explained. Does not mean that Sethite proponents are bad guys. Just means there is more for them to explain.
  • What Was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    10/10/2017 7:43:08 AM PDT · 201 of 215
    Blogger to Elsie
    If is what you have, Elsie as well.
  • What Was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    10/08/2017 10:35:22 AM PDT · 194 of 215
    Blogger to Elsie
    It appears to me that a person could only come to this conclusion by reading into the text, from other locations; what is not there.
    Where is the word homosexuality ANYWHERE in Scripture in relation to Sodom?
    Are we really going to be looking for words; or concepts?


    Both. The angel view was prevalent until Augustine depopularized it. It wasn't the only view. But, you'll find it is not a new one. If the angels were in view in Genesis 6 and the Nephilim (and Rephaim, and Zamzummim, and Anakim, and Amorites)were the result of these illegal unions, then a lot of things in Scripture become more understandable. Anywhere the giants were, for instance, God said wipe them out. Joshua was to wipe them out but some escaped to Gaza and Ashdod etc., Out of that some came Goliath. Genesis 14 helps make sense of Sodom and Gomorrah and why it was more than simple homosexuality that doomed that civilization. It wasn't just the angel sex either. It was an entire mentality in rebellion to God in every way.
  • What Was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    10/07/2017 8:20:20 AM PDT · 191 of 215
    Blogger to Elsie

    The phrase for first estate.

  • What Was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    10/07/2017 8:19:21 AM PDT · 190 of 215
    Blogger to Elsie
    https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/job/1/6/t_conc_437006

    Blue letter Bible has the Masoretic text spelled out. The Ha is there. If you turn off the vowel points (which would not have been in the original) there is no difference. The Masoretes added vowel points, but my understanding is it is for pronunciation. I took Hebrew too many years ago to recall what the line after the Qamets means. Josephus and others believed they were angels. There are also extra-biblical texts such as Enoch which are older than Jude and it appears Jude quoted from. These I believe have been corrupted and are no Scripture, so my stance is that insofar as what I'm reading fits with Scripture, then I can consider it. But, if it doesn't, throw it out. Scripture first. Scripture always. If I can't make a strong case from Scripture, then I'm not going to be a proponent of any theory. I do not believe the sons of Seth theory is supported by Scripture. I do believe the angelic theory is. You disagree. That is fine. We'll find out in heaven.
  • What Was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    10/07/2017 8:12:12 AM PDT · 189 of 215
    Blogger to Elsie
    Sorry, I do not agree
    Thank you, Captain Obvious.

    It appears to me that a person could only come to this conclusion by reading into the text, from other locations; what is not there.

    Where is the word homosexuality ANYWHERE in Scripture in relation to Sodom?

    [Gen 13:13 KJV] 13 But the men of Sodom [were] wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

    Any mention of homosexuality there? No.

    [Gen 18:20-21 KJV] 20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

    Any mention of homosexuality there? No.

    [Gen 19:12-13 KJV] 12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring [them] out of this place: 13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.

    Any mention of homosexuality there? No.

    [Deu 32:16-18, 20-21, 28-29, 31-32 KJV] 16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange [gods], with abominations provoked they him to anger. 17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new [gods that] came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. 18 Of the Rock [that] begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. ... 20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end [shall be]: for they [are] a very froward generation, children in whom [is] no faith. 21 They have moved me to jealousy with [that which is] not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with [those which are] not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. ... 28 For they [are] a nation void of counsel, neither [is there any] understanding in them. 29 O that they were wise, [that] they understood this, [that] they would consider their latter end! ... 31 For their rock [is] not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves [being] judges. 32 For their vine [is] of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes [are] grapes of gall, their clusters [are] bitter:

    Any mention of homosexuality there? No.

    [Isa 3:8-9 KJV] 8 For Jerusalem is ruined, and Judah is fallen: because their tongue and their doings [are] against the LORD, to provoke the eyes of his glory. 9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide [it] not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.

    Any mention of homosexuality there? No.

    [Jer 23:14 KJV] 14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

    Any mention of homosexuality there? No.

    [Eze 16:49-50 KJV] 49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw [good].

    Any mention there? No.

    [Eze 16:56 KJV] 56 For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,

    Any there? No.

    [2Pe 2:7-8 KJV] 7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds;)

    Any there? No.

    [Jde 1:7 KJV] 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    Closest verse you have to mentioning homosexuality, but it is not conclusive. The word is heteros there and is defined as number or quality. When of quality, it is defined as "one not of the same nature, form, class, kind, different". Seems like that definition puts us at a stand still. You are reading into Scripture the term homosexuality where it does not exist and is not talked about. Yet, they did something that was an abomination, but there are several sins that qualify for that. For me, the BIBLICAL evidence is that Angels somehow procreated with women in Genesis 6. You may disagree. That is fine. This is an opinion thread, not a thread to trash talk beliefs of fellow Christians by calling them Mormons etc.,
  • What Was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    10/07/2017 7:49:20 AM PDT · 188 of 215
    Blogger to Elsie

    Abraham asked the question. He knew what was at stake. The Angel sex episode is what confirmed to man that Sodom’s destruction was fully justified.

  • What Was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    10/07/2017 7:47:45 AM PDT · 187 of 215
    Blogger to Elsie

    Elsie, dear. You don’t need to teach me about Mormonism. I teach on the cults and even wrote a book on it. Mormonism’s approach to the KJV and the KJV TRANSLATORS are completely different. No similarity at all. So don’t be trying to tag use of the KJV with Mormonism. You’ll lose on that.

  • What Was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    10/06/2017 9:48:28 PM PDT · 173 of 215
    Blogger to Elsie
    There is no difference. The ha is on both. In Genesis it has an extra vowel marker but it is translated the same (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_God)

    In Genesis: בְנֵי־הָֽאֱלֹהִים

    In Job: בְּנֵי הָאֱלֹהִים

  • What Was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    10/06/2017 9:35:53 PM PDT · 172 of 215
    Blogger to mdmathis6

    There is a problem though when they say the sons of God are the sons of Seth, as if they Sethites were less pure. First, there is nothing unique about the children spawning from such mixed marriages. Second, if the Sethites were inherently less sinful so as to be called sons of God versus those ungodly daughters of men -— why did they look upon them with lust and take of them wives. Does not fit the usage of son’s of God in Scripture at any point in the Old Testament. It is always referring to angels.

    [Gen 6:2, 4 KJV] 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. ... 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.
    [Job 1:6 KJV] 6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
    [Job 2:1 KJV] 1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
    [Job 38:7 KJV] 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

  • What Was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    10/06/2017 9:31:12 PM PDT · 171 of 215
    Blogger to Elsie

    I’m not arguing that the Bible calls homosexuality an abomination. It does. Old and New Testament. And, if the Bible says, it I believe it. I’m just saying that was not the primary sin of Sodom. Sodom was overflowing with sin. The attempt to have sex with angels closed their casket.

  • What Was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    10/06/2017 9:28:13 PM PDT · 170 of 215
    Blogger to Elsie
    First mistake is using a dynamic equivalent translation like the NIV. You do realize that homosexual activists were on the translation committee there. Very bad translation. The phrase in Hebrew is most often translated beginning.

    beginning (40x), principality (8x), corner (2x), first (2x), miscellaneous (6x).

    Jude 1 (KJV) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    So, in Jude, the idea is that the angels did not honor the role or place that God had created them to fulfill but instead went after strange flesh in like manner to Sodom and Gomorrah. For this infraction, they are reserved in chains until judgment.

    We see this also detailed in 2nd Peter

    [2Pe 2:4 KJV] 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell [phrase is Tartarus which has a very specific meaning and is only found here in Scripture], and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    This is tied in chronological order to Noah and Sodom and Gomorrah in the next verses.

    [2Pe 2:4-8 KJV] 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds;)

    In 1 Peter, I believe he preached to these angels in 1 Peter 3:19 [1Pe 3:19 KJV] 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    In the Old Testament, the descendants of the fallen angels were the Rephaim. It is translated Rephaim until you reach Isaiah at which point the same word is spirits, shades, ghosts. The descendants of the Rephaim are the demons which afflict us today in various guises such as possession and the paranormal.

  • What Was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    10/04/2017 7:15:56 PM PDT · 114 of 215
    Blogger to odawg

    Exactly. It is the sin of Genesis 6.

  • What Was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    10/04/2017 3:13:52 PM PDT · 104 of 215
    Blogger to HombreSecreto

    I have heard several things. First the looking upon Noah’s nakedness has been conjectured to be Ham looked at Noah’s wife, his Mom, in some illicit way. That still doesn’t explain the curse on Canaan. Second, a theory is that when Noah saw Canaan, he bore some marking of the hybrids. For instance, the 6 fingers of giants in the Americas. And Noah knew there was a curse there. God blessed Noah and his sons. A third conjecture is that since God blessed them man couldn’t curse Ham so he skipped and went to Canaan. I’m not sure what the answer is there.

  • What Was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    10/04/2017 3:10:02 PM PDT · 103 of 215
    Blogger to ravenwolf

    From the Bible:
    [Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw [good].

    Earlier in the chapter, the Lord likens Israel to the Amorites and Hittites both of which have ties to the Nephilim giants. Sodom’s doom was on its way when the angels visited. When the Sodomites tried to “know” the angels, it was sealed.

  • What Was the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    10/04/2017 2:19:59 PM PDT · 99 of 215
    Blogger to HombreSecreto

    But Cush was of the line of Ham. If Ham’s wife’s line was corrupt, then you would have some genetic offspring of Nephilim through the line of Ham, which also might explain why Canaan was cursed.