I don't think so...
Posted on 06/16/2023 7:39:10 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
I’ve only been in an ICU once as a patient. I developed sudden chest pain and went to the ER. The funny thing about chest pain is that it gets you right to the front of the line at the ER. I had been there on a previous visit with a deep cut on my hand and had to sit with my hand over a garbage can so I wouldn’t get blood all over the floor. As it later turned out, the chest pain was actually caused by an ulcer that was creating reflux. The ulcer was caused by my job, but that’s another story. But I did spend a night in the ICU. My favorite memory was of my wife, who worked on that very unit, telling all her co-workers, “If he starts to snore, just close the door.” That’s what’s known as medical humor.
I learned one thing during my night in the ICU: unless you are unconscious, you don’t get any rest. I was checked on constantly, monitored, and even given a shot at one point. I was glad to be discharged so I could go home and get some rest. But I was still impressed. My nurses were on top of the game the entire time.
In addition to obtaining a degree, nurses go through regular training and take continuing education courses. And after five or six years, they develop a certain savvy when it comes to spotting problems with their patients. It is something that can only come with experience. It may be something obvious like pale skin, or a slow increase or decrease in heart rate or respirations.
Even a moment of confusion in a patient can tell a nurse volumes.
(Excerpt) Read more at pjmedia.com ...
Melissa Beebe, an oncology nurse, relies on her observation skills to make life-or-death decisions. A sleepy patient with dilated pupils could have had a hemorrhagic stroke. An elderly patient with foul-smelling breath could have an abdominal obstruction.
So when an alert said her patient in the oncology unit of UC Davis Medical Center had sepsis, she was sure it was wrong. “I’ve been working with cancer patients for 15 years so I know a septic patient when I see one,” she said. “I knew this patient wasn’t septic.”
Nurses can override the algorithm with the attending doctor’s permission. There is a protocol that is followed when the algorithm determines that a patient is septic and it does not provide a rationale for its decision. It merely created an alert when it noticed objective data that were similar to past patients with sepsis. Beebe could tell that sepsis was not the problem, but she still had to draw blood. As Bannon noted, that created a risk of infection while adding to the patient’s medical bills. So AI is good at finding an issue, but not so good when it comes to pinpointing it. The piece quotes Kenrick Cato, a professor of nursing at the University of Pennsylvania and nurse scientist at the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia: “AI should be used as clinical decision support and not to replace the expert. Hospital administrators need to understand there are lots of things an algorithm can’t see in a clinical setting.”
“how willing are you to turn your care over to artificial intelligence”
Doctor + AI is fine with me. One can check the other.
If the “AI” means you feed in symptoms and it gives treatments, all that is is people that have fed data into a computer and it spits out some of that data.
RE: Doctor + AI is fine with me. One can check the other.
The danger comes when a hospital puts a higher value on the abilities of the machine than a nurse’s or doctor’s experience and critical thinking skills.
Experience, after even 5-10 years in nursing as an example, provides more value than an algorithm that lacks a human component. The other danger is that younger nurses may learn to lean on AI as opposed to evaluating the situation themselves. As with any tool, it is great to have, but AI cannot have a higher priority than clinical judgment.
Sometimes I wish these doctors and nurses would apply the same valued judgement to their political conclusions.
Trust AI for medical stuff? you frikkin crazy, I have lost pretty much ALL Trust and Respect for the entire medical community after the Fauci Flu Scam and Fake Death Jab called a vaccine.
Today, I trust Medical AI more than I trust Medical Affirmative Action.
I think Medical AI will become the essential Second Opinion within five years.
Within 10 years, AI will become the essential First Opinion, driving down medical costs and medical employment.
There are image processing AI’s that can separate women from men with a high degree of certainty, even men with wigs and makeup are classified as men. Many doctors are unable to do this today even after extensive medical training. Having “AI” doctors might not be the worst idea.
Is the AI going to be programmed with the Hippocratic oath? Otherwise, the computer may not value the preservation of human life the same way a human physician should ( although it is an outrage that there are doctors in favor of abortion and euthanasia—both explicitly against the oath).
If this machine is so good then why hasn't it found a cure for cancer?
Hell, why can't it find a resolution for the DO NOT CALL to work?
It’s probably better than some doctors, and about even with Johnny the shoe shine guy.
> The danger comes when a hospital puts a higher value on the abilities of the machine than a nurse’s or doctor’s experience and critical thinking skills.
Yep, I’d say within the next decade or two that doctors and nurses will have to take extraordinary measures to contradict whatever the machines tell them to do. Hospitals these days are all about the dollars and will NOT take on the liability of trusting a doctor when they can rely upon the AI.
Most doctors have now been practicing algorithmic medicine anyways. They have been incrementally conditioned to do so. I foresee the day I will stick my biometric card into my AI physician kiosk and type in my symptoms and pee in the depository and stick my forearm into the sleeve to get not only my blood pressure but for it to take blood samples. Don’t think TPTB aren’t working on it at this moment.
Dr. X in the next room laid out sleeping with headphones, fries on the floor, with video game still playing.
AI “Artie” green light goes off, and Dr X goes to see the patient in next room.
All lined up morning. Off to the afternoon club all day.
Cha-ching cha-ching cha-ching insurance.
“Word on the street is that you have pancreatic cancer.”
The left will likely create rules that state that they can’t be sued if the ai gets it wrong and someone e suffers for it
I don't think so...
Nope. Uh-uh. I don't think so...
I’ve trusted “robots” to operate on me twice. They are controlled by programs, which are artificial intelligence, operating on precise input data created by human doctors. The robot is carrying out the wishes of a surgeon, and is working in tandem with him/her.
AIs used for diagnosis are based on huge troves of data, furnished by doctors. They allow those doctors’ expertise to be used by doctors whose diagnostic skills are not up to those of the AI.
So yes, I would certainly trust an AI, as long as it isn’t furnished by the government.
I know Air France Flight 447 is not a great example, but if control systems (think AI) are given a bad input, then a bad output will be the result. This is where the human element is supposed to “save the day” and realize when to ignore the bad input data. AF447 had poorly trained pilots and were effectively just as bad as having no pilots as they did not over-ride a bad input. A good pilot would not have lost the aircraft.
Garbage In = Garbage Out.
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