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A Good Neanderthal Was Hard to Find
NY Times:Week in Review ^ | February 26, 2006 | JOHN NOBLE WILFORD

Posted on 02/26/2006 3:25:01 AM PST by Pharmboy

Maybe they just didn't have time to get to know each other.

The question of what Neanderthals and Homo sapiens might have done on cold nights in their caves, if they happened to get together and the fire burned down to embers, has intrigued scientists since the 19th century, when the existence of Neanderthals was discovered.

A correction in the way prehistoric time is measured using radiocarbon dating, described last week in the journal Nature, doesn't answer the enduring question, but it might at least help explain why no DNA evidence of interbreeding has been found: the two species spent less time together than was previously believed.

The old radiocarbon calculation is now known to be off by as much as several thousand years, the new research shows. That means that modern Homo sapiens barged into Europe 46,000 years ago, 3,000 years earlier than once estimated. But the radiocarbon dating under the new calculation also shows that their takeover of the continent was more rapid, their coexistence with the native Neanderthals much briefer.

snip...

Was that advantage cognitive, technological or demographic? Their personal ornaments and cave art, now seen to have emerged much earlier, are strong evidence for an emergence of complex symbolic behavior among the modern newcomers, a marked advance in their intelligence.

That doesn't mean they didn't interbreed with the Neanderthals.

snip...

"Since these two species may have been able to interbreed, as many closely related mammal species can," Dr. Harvati said, "a restricted coexistence interval may be easier to reconcile with the observed lack of Neanderthal genetic contribution to the modern human gene pool and with the paucity of convincing fossil evidence for hybridization."

The caves, it would seem, still hold their secrets.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: crevolist; europe; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; humanevolution; milfordwolpoff; neandertal; neandertals; neanderthal; neanderthals
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To: AntiGuv

No, not really. It's intriguing to think about though. As I said in another thread just yesterday, it's perfectly OK by me if people want to fantasize hot sweaty cavesex between Neanderthals & Cro-Magnons....>>>

The reality wouldn't make a nice fantasy at all. If it happened at all it was very likely brutal rape.

My question: Is it possible that the story of Cain and Abel is actually a faint race memory of our first genocidal war--against the Neandertal?


61 posted on 02/26/2006 6:37:36 AM PST by Phil Connors
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To: Pharmboy

What we need is a time machine so we can go back and collect the information on the theories we keep coming up with.


62 posted on 02/26/2006 6:38:41 AM PST by Dustbunny (The Islam of the terrorists is not a religion it is a CULT whose leader is Satan.)
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To: Phil Connors
My question: Is it possible that the story of Cain and Abel is actually a faint race memory of our first genocidal war--against the Neandertal?

In my personal view, yes.

63 posted on 02/26/2006 6:38:57 AM PST by AntiGuv
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To: Modok
She is rather fetching.

The real test is identifying the pistol by make and model.

64 posted on 02/26/2006 6:42:38 AM PST by ASA Vet (Those who know don't talk, those who talk don't know.)
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts

The Neanderthal phenotype coupled with the complete absence of technological advance over hundreds of thousands of years indicates that they are a distinct species. There were and are some human groups that use very primitive tools, but there were no Neanderthal groups that used advanced tools.


65 posted on 02/26/2006 6:43:44 AM PST by ahayes
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To: ASA Vet

LOL


66 posted on 02/26/2006 6:45:17 AM PST by Modok
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To: Eaker
observed lack of Neanderthal genetic contribution to the modern human gene pool

I better get out there and do my part!

67 posted on 02/26/2006 6:45:41 AM PST by humblegunner (If you're gonna die, die with your boots on.)
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts
What does the level of technological development or cultural sophistication have to do with determining species?

It is problematic at best, which is why it is hardly definitive on its own, which is why Neanderthals are not conclusively regarded as a fully distinct species, because they clearly had inferior tools and inferior culture.

It is one of multiple factors that appear to point toward the same general direction, or at least don't contradict it. If instead Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons had very similar or indistinguishable technology and artistry, then that would be a strong signifier of intermixing, and a powerful argument in favor of sub-species, if not closer than that even.

But it is worth noting that in paleo-anthropology tool-making and cultural behaviors are conventionally regarded as the barometers of intelligence. Therefore, if the Neanderthals were clearly inferior to the Cro-Magnon in those regards, then it is extrapolated that were clearly less intelligent.

And finally, it is worth noting that it is a fallacy to craft an analogy between modern post-Industrial society and the pre-urban subsistence world of the Cro-Magnon. Back then, and until relatively very recent times (about 5000 years ago) the degree of technological aptitude or cultural sophistication was all but indistinguishable between humans worldwide.

68 posted on 02/26/2006 6:46:42 AM PST by AntiGuv
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To: Varda
Balderdash.
69 posted on 02/26/2006 6:47:21 AM PST by Pharmboy (The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.)
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To: ahayes
Then if that is true, then ancient human DNA shows humans did not evolve from Neandertals, correct?

How does this impact the theory of evolution then?

70 posted on 02/26/2006 6:47:29 AM PST by SkyPilot
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To: SkyPilot

DNA evidence that they're a seperate line of hominid is pretty conclusive.


71 posted on 02/26/2006 6:49:30 AM PST by Melas (What!? Read or learn something? Why would anyone do that, when they can just go on being stupid)
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To: AntiGuv
I'm not ready to accept what the pointy headed academicians offer us about what is or isn't a (sub)species based upon archaeological finds and customs.

It's impossible for them to divorce their modern beliefs and then draw objective conclusions for the fact that they *want* to establish a name for themselves and get further funding. It's one of the most self-fulfilling 'sciences' today.

Apart from skeletal differences, their claims in the past (prior to DNA analysis) rested upon tool use and tool design. This is tenuous evidence as even today there are tools in use that aren't much different than what was used thousands of years ago. Those of us in the West can go to Home Cheapo and buy tools that most people in the world can't imagine.

And as for using customs to define species, one only need look at the Masai practice of tonguing a cow's arse to stimulate milk production where in the West we load them up with chemicals for that, yet you and I could certainly breed with some hot Masai chick.

Today's archaeologists are really no different than the British expeditions into deepest and darkest Africa where their findings made outrageous claims that the people they encountered were subhuman primitives.

Until unimpeachable DNA evidence is offered up, the debate of modern man's taxonomic uniqueness over Neanderthal's is moot.

72 posted on 02/26/2006 6:53:02 AM PST by Lovely-Day-For-A-Guinness (Eenie meanie, chili beanie, the spirits are about to speak....)
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To: SkyPilot
It does not in any way impact the general theory of evolution. What this discussion is really about is the nuts and bolts of how modern humans came to be. There is much contention now between the "stones and bones" boys and girls and the genes crowd.

It comes down to the Out of Africa crowd vs. the multiregional hypothesis bunch. The former believe that about 150,000 or so years ago Homo sapiens emerged from Africa and spread out over the old world replacing local populations of more ancient types, whereas the latter believe that emerging modern humans interbred with local populations eventually giving rise to races.

Data that will not go away that the OOA people cannot explain are the anatomical similarities shared by Peking Man and modern east Asians, in the teeth, for example.

73 posted on 02/26/2006 6:55:15 AM PST by Pharmboy (The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.)
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To: Renderofveils
My theory is that they listened to Dick Clark.

Yes, yes. But I think the author wants to know what they did afterwards...

74 posted on 02/26/2006 6:57:37 AM PST by null and void (Imagine what they would be doing if it wasn't a religion of peace!!!)
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To: Lovely-Day-For-A-Guinness
...yet you and I could certainly breed with some hot Masai chick.

I think I tried that once, and have the fractured bones to prove it! :)

75 posted on 02/26/2006 6:59:08 AM PST by AntiGuv
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To: Pharmboy

"..the analysis by Duarte et al of the Lagar Velho child's skeleton is "a brave and imaginative interpretation" which the majority of paleoanthropologists will consider unproven. The archeological context of Lagar Velho is that of a typical *Gravettian burial, with no sign of *Mousterian cultural influence, and the specimen itself lacks not only derived Neanderthal characteristics, but also lacks any suggestion of Neanderthal morphology.
6) the authors conclude: "The probability must thus remain that this is simply a chunky Gravettian child, a descendant of the modern invaders who had evicted the Neanderthals from Iberia several millennia earlier."
http://scienceweek.com/2001/sw011019.htm

"Research on the Lagar Velho child is carried out by an international and interdisciplinaryresearch team (Instituto Português de Arqueologia; Washington University, St. Louis; University of Zurich, and others). During computer-assisted reconstruction of the skull the severely fragmented and dispersed cranial remains were assembled, and plastic deformation caused by taphonomic compression of the cranial vault was corrected. Taking into account several reconstruction variants, a comparative geometric-morphometric analysis of the Lagar Velho cranium clusters this individual with modern human children of age 3 to 4 and does not reveal Neanderthal affinities." http://www.ifi.unizh.ch/~zolli/res_db/lv.htm


76 posted on 02/26/2006 7:03:32 AM PST by Varda
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To: Varda
That's their opinions. This is a highly contentious topic.
77 posted on 02/26/2006 7:06:36 AM PST by Pharmboy (The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.)
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To: Just mythoughts
Science/biology books need recalled for unsupported claims.

I misread that as: Scientology books need[ed to be] recalled for unsupported claims.

I was going to point out that "What to Audit" was merely reissued as "A History of Man"...

So you have questions about Scientology...

78 posted on 02/26/2006 7:08:36 AM PST by null and void (Imagine what they would be doing if it wasn't a religion of peace!!!)
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To: Pharmboy

Hey! That's my Fa-a-a-a-a-ather!


79 posted on 02/26/2006 7:10:24 AM PST by null and void (Imagine what they would be doing if it wasn't a religion of peace!!!)
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To: Melas
"DNA evidence that they're a separate line of hominid is pretty conclusive."

The evidence certainly points in that direction, but it's very far from conclusive. Going back to the article linked on the last page, it appears that there have only been three Neanderthal specimens from which mDNA has been extracted. These three exemplars were then compared to a vastly broader sample of modern mDNA, and conclusions were drawn from that.

You have to be skeptical of an study that bases its conclusion on such a narrow sample of Neanderthal mDNA because you cannot exclude the possibility that there are other Neanderthal mDNA sequences that existed at the time of interbreeding, but are not present in the three Neanderthal samples to which modern mDNA is being compared. For example, note that the article compared the Neanderthal sample from the Neander Valley to the one taken from the Caucasus, one had ~27 differences from the modern sequence, while the other had only ~22, or about 25% less. Therefroe, a greater sample of Neanderthal mDNA could reasonable be expected to have many other mDNA sequences not found in the three samples tested, and some of those might have been detected in modern mDNA. Based on the data the article presents, you cannot exclude that possibility.

80 posted on 02/26/2006 7:14:31 AM PST by PUGACHEV
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