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"I beseech you to pray unto our Lord for me" ~ Ancient Roots of the Doctrine of Purgatory
Gloria Romanorum ^
| 9/2/17
| Florentius
Posted on 03/13/2019 6:40:19 AM PDT by Antoninus
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To: MHGinTN
BTW, the thread was about the catholiciism doctrine of purgatory.
Purgatory was not an original Catholic idea
PURGATORY:
By: Kaufmann Kohler
Table of Contents Rabbinic Views.
History of Purgatory.> An intermediate state through which souls are to pass in order to be purified from sin before they are admitted into the heavenly paradise. The belief in purgatory, fundamental with the Roman Catholic Church, is based by the Church authorities chiefly upon II Macc. xii. 44-45: "If he [Judas] had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the (dead. . . . Whereupon he made an atonement that they might be delivered from sin"; for this indicates that souls after death pass through an intermediate state in which they may by some intercession be saved from doom. The same view, that an atonement should be made for the dead, is expressed in Sifre, Deut. 210. The idea of an intermediate state of the soul, release from which may be obtained by intercession of the saints, is clearly dwelt upon in the Testament of Abraham, Recension A, xiv., where the description is given of a soul which, because its good and its evil deeds are equal, has to undergo the process of purification while remaining in a middle state, and on whose behalf Abraham intercedes, the angels joining him in his prayer, whereupon the soul is admitted into paradise.
Rabbinic Views.
The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: "In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: 'I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried' [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, 'He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again'" (I Sam. ii. 6). The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: "He who is 'plenteous in mercy' [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward mercy, and consequently the intermediates do not descend into Gehenna" (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3; R. H. 16b; Bacher, "Ag. Tan." i. 18). Still they also speak of an intermediate state.
Regarding the time which purgatory lasts, the accepted opinion of R. Akiba is twelve months; according to R. Johanan b. Nuri, it is only forty-nine days. Both opinions are based upon Isa. lxvi. 23-24: "From one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before Me, and they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched"; the former interpreting the words "from one new moon to another" to signify all the months of a year; the latter interpreting the words "from one Sabbath to another," in accordance with Lev. xxiii. 15-16, to signify seven weeks. During the twelve months, declares the baraita (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 4-5; R. H. 16b), the souls of the wicked are judged, and after these twelve months are over they are consumed and transformed into ashes under the feet of the righteous (according to Mal. iii. 21 [A. V. iv. 3]), whereas the great seducers and blasphemers are to undergo eternal tortures in Gehenna without cessation (according to Isa. lxvi. 24).
The righteous, however, and, according to some, also the sinners among the people of Israel for whom Abraham intercedes because they bear the Abrahamic sign of the covenant are not harmed by the fire of Gehenna even when they are required to pass through the intermediate state of purgatory ('Er. 19b; Ḥag. 27a).
History of Purgatory.
The idea of the purging fire through which the soul has to pass is found in the Zend-Avesta ("Bundahis," xxx. 20): "All men will pass into the melted metal and become pure; to the righteous it will seem as though he walks through warm milk" (comp. Enoch, lii. 6-7, lxvii. 6-7). The Church Fathers developed the idea of the "ignis purgatorius" into a dogma according to which all souls, including those of the righteous who remain unscathed, have to pass the purgatory (Origen on Ps. xxxvii., Homily 3; Lactantius, "Divinæ Institutiones," vii. 21, 4-7; Jerome on Ps. cxviii., Sermon 20; Commodianus, "Instructiones," ii. 2, 9); hence prayers and offerings for the souls in purgatory were instituted (Tertullian, "De Corona Militis," 3-4; "De Monogamia," 10; "Exhortatio Castitatis," 11; Augustine, "Enchiridion ad Lauram," 67-69, 109; Gregory I., "Dialogi," iv. 57). Hence also arose in the Church the mass for the dead corresponding in the Synagogue to the Ḳaddish (see Ḳaddish).
641
posted on
03/30/2019 3:29:55 PM PDT
by
af_vet_1981
(The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
To: af_vet_1981
Are you acquainted with the phrase ‘Bema Seat of Christ’?
642
posted on
03/30/2019 3:57:13 PM PDT
by
MHGinTN
(A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
To: af_vet_1981
643
posted on
03/30/2019 4:18:44 PM PDT
by
MHGinTN
(A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
644
posted on
03/30/2019 4:23:27 PM PDT
by
MHGinTN
(A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
To: MHGinTN
Are you acquainted with the phrase Bema Seat of Christ?
Yes, since post 638 read "... BTW, the thread was about the catholiciism [SIC] doctrine of purgatory." does that signify you hold the Bema Seat of Christ is related to Purgatory ?
645
posted on
03/30/2019 7:33:43 PM PDT
by
af_vet_1981
(The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
To: af_vet_1981
As a side note, I believe the Bible is clear that the Bema Seat occurs in Heaven thus it has nothing to do with purgatory and one cannot buy an indulgence to avoid The Bema Seat moment.
646
posted on
03/30/2019 7:58:14 PM PDT
by
MHGinTN
(A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
To: MHGinTN
As a side note, I believe the Bible is clear that the Bema Seat occurs in Heaven ...
Why would not the Bema be anywhere the Messiah judges?
He is going to render to every one according to one's deeds.
- Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
- Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
- For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
- And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
- And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
- I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John, Catholic chapter five, Protestant verses twenty four to thirty,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
647
posted on
03/30/2019 8:22:16 PM PDT
by
af_vet_1981
(The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
To: af_vet_1981
Are you confusing The Great White Throne of Judgment with the Bema Seat?
648
posted on
03/30/2019 8:26:44 PM PDT
by
MHGinTN
(A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
To: boatbums
To: MHGinTN
Are you confusing The Great White Throne of Judgment with the Bema Seat?
Do you know what
Bema (βῆμα in Greek, בִּימָה in Hebrew) means ?
V. THE LAST JUDGMENT
- 1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"623 will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man's] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."624 Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."625
- 1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man's relationship with God will be laid bare.626 The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:
All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When "our God comes, he does not keep silence.". . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence."627
- 1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God's justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God's love is stronger than death.628
- 1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them "the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation."629 It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the "blessed hope" of the Lord's return, when he will come "to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed."630
650
posted on
03/31/2019 4:45:07 AM PDT
by
af_vet_1981
(The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
To: af_vet_1981
In Greece, the Bema Seat was the place athletes received their reward or shunning. You are a product of your Vatican deceivers. Do you think that will get you a pardon from your imagined purgatory?... ‘The Vatican made me that way’
651
posted on
03/31/2019 10:33:02 AM PDT
by
MHGinTN
(A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
To: MHGinTN
652
posted on
03/31/2019 12:57:27 PM PDT
by
af_vet_1981
(The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
To: af_vet_1981
A source? Well, yes:
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 "If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
This event of which Paul writes is in Heaven.
Paul's word was 'bematos'. Can you find a more severe seat reference for judgment, as in a condemnation to death for a crime? (Hint: Pilote or the Sanhedrin
653
posted on
03/31/2019 1:40:26 PM PDT
by
MHGinTN
(A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
To: MHGinTN
A source? Well, yes:
You claimed "In Greece, the Bema Seat was the place athletes received their reward or shunning."
Strong's does not mention it. Neither is there any mention of Bema (βῆμα in Greek, בִּימָה in Hebrew) in the passage you posted. Do you have any source for the sports reference ?
654
posted on
03/31/2019 1:55:48 PM PDT
by
af_vet_1981
(The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
To: af_vet_1981
The Meaning of the Judgment (Bema) Seat
Both Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:9 speak of the judgment seat. This is a translation of one Greek word, the word bema. While bema is used in the gospels and Acts of the raised platform where a Roman magistrate or ruler sat to make decisions and pass sentence (Matt. 27:19; John 19:13), its use in the epistles by Paul, because of his many allusions to the Greek athletic contests, is more in keeping with its original use among the Greeks.
This word was taken from Isthmian games where the contestants would compete for the prize under the careful scrutiny of judges who would make sure that every rule of the contest was obeyed (cf. 2 Tim. 2:5). The victor of a given event who participated according to the rules was led by the judge to the platform called the Bema. There the laurel wreath was placed on his head as a symbol of victory (cf. 1 Cor. 9:24-25).
In all of these passages, Paul was picturing the believer as a competitor in a spiritual contest. As the victorious Grecian athlete appeared before the Bema to receive his perishable award, so the Christian will appear before Christs Bema to receive his imperishable award. The judge at the Bema bestowed rewards to the victors. He did not whip the losers.2 We might add, neither did he sentence them to hard labor.
[ https://bible.org/article/doctrine-rewards-judgment-seat-bema-christ ]
I want to ask you, if we took your meaning as related to purgatory of the catholic church, does it seem correct to you that someone could buy their way out of this judgment, or do enough rosary recitation to work their way out of this judgment, or wear a talisman to ward off this judgment?
655
posted on
03/31/2019 2:47:10 PM PDT
by
MHGinTN
(A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
To: af_vet_1981
Here is what a superb Bible teacher had to say:
There are three principal judgments that are often confused: the Bema Seat Judgment, the Sheep and Goat Judgment, and the Great White Throne. They are each quite different.There are three principal judgments that are often confused: the Bema Seat Judgment, the Sheep and Goat Judgment, and the Great White Throne. They are each quite different. The Bema Seat[7] deals with rewards for obedience, crowns, and the call of the Bride to the Marriage of the Lamb which occurs in the Fathers house.
The Sheep and Goat Judgment[8] is on the earth. Three separate parties are involved, and mortals are judged on the basis of their works.
The Great White Throne[9] occurs at the end of the Millennium, deals with the unsaved dead, and ushers in the New Heavens, the New Earth, and the New Jerusalem. (Chuck Missler)
656
posted on
03/31/2019 3:04:24 PM PDT
by
MHGinTN
(A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
To: MHGinTN
There are no links in that response. Is that your work or plagiarism ?
657
posted on
03/31/2019 3:08:16 PM PDT
by
af_vet_1981
(The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
To: MHGinTN
658
posted on
03/31/2019 3:12:16 PM PDT
by
af_vet_1981
(The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
To: af_vet_1981
Try reading the entire post before you accuse me falsely. [Hint: link at the end of the next to the last paragraph.
And here is the Missler link so maybe you will go to the site and see the excellent explanatory chart there: https://www.khouse.org/articles/2014/1213/
659
posted on
03/31/2019 3:15:49 PM PDT
by
MHGinTN
(A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
To: af_vet_1981
IF you were familiar with Pauls many allusion to sporting events and the context of the passages in his letters, you would not make such an obtuse assertion as "All Bema references in scripture have nothing to do with sports."
Now, how about a response to: "I want to ask you, if we took your meaning as related to purgatory of the catholic church, does it seem correct to you that someone could buy their way out of this judgment, or do enough rosary recitation to work their way out of this judgment, or wear a talisman to ward off this judgment?"
660
posted on
03/31/2019 3:21:04 PM PDT
by
MHGinTN
(A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
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