"I beseech you to pray unto our Lord for me" ~ Ancient Roots of the Doctrine of Purgatory

Gloria Romanorum ^ | 9/2/17 | Florentius

[Antoninus]

In part one of this post, I looked at the vision of Perpetua—one of the earliest authentic Christian documents to describe directly a Purgatory-like state and to highlight the efficacy of prayer petitions for the dead.

Others writing during the patristic age also expounded upon this idea in more or less detail, among them St. Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, St. Augustine of Hippo, and St. Caesarius of Arles. One of the most clear references to Purgatory appears in a late 4th century work by Saint Gregory of Nyssa, entitled: “On the Soul and the Resurrection”. St. Gregory writes:

“For [God], the one goal is this: the perfection of the universe through each man individually, the fulfillment of our nature. Some of us are purged of evil in this life, and some are cured of it through fire in the after-life, some have not had the experience of good and evil in life here….The different degrees of virtue or vice in our life will be revealed in our participating more quickly or more slowly in the blessedness we hope for. The extent of the healing with depend on the amount of evil present in each person. The healing of the soul will be purification from evil and this cannot be accomplished without suffering…”

Building upon this notion about 200 years later, another Gregory—Pope Saint Gregory the Great—was the first to set forth the notion of Purgatory as Catholics now understand it. As part of his famous Dialogues, he wrote:

“…It is plain that in such state as a man departs out of this life, in the same he is presented in judgment before God. But yet we must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins: because our Savior says, “That he which speaketh blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come [Matthew 12:32].”

Here we see Gregory offering a scriptural proof for Purgatory, out of the mouth of Jesus Himself. He elaborates on this point, citing Saint Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 3:

“Out of which sentence we learn, that some sins are forgiven in this world, and some other may be pardoned in the next: for that which is denied concerning one sin, is consequently understood to be granted touching some other. But yet this, as I said, we have not to believe but only concerning little and very small sins, as, for example, daily idle talk, immoderate laughter, negligence in the care of our family (which kind of offenses scarce can they avoid, that know in what sort sin is to be shunned), ignorant errors in matters of no great weight: all which sins be punished after death, if men procured not pardon and remission for them in their lifetime: for when St. Paul said, that “Christ is the foundation:” and by and by added: “And if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: the work of every one, of what kind it is, the fire shall try. If any man's work abide which he built thereupon, he shall receive reward; if any man’s work burn, he shall suffer detriment, but himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.”

Gregory then goes on to explain St. Paul’s meaning, drawing a distinction between what we would later call mortal and venial sins:

“For although these words may be understood of the fire of tribulation, which men suffer in this world: yet if any will interpret them of the fire of Purgatory, which shall be in the next life: then must he carefully consider, that the Apostle said not that he may be saved by fire, that buildeth upon this foundation iron, brass, or lead, that is, the greater sort of sins, and therefore more hard, and consequently not remissible in that place: but wood, hay, stubble, that is, little and very light sins, which the fire doth easily consume. Yet we have here further to consider, that none can be there purged, no, not for the least sins that be, unless in his lifetime he deserved by virtuous works to find such favor in that place.” [Dialogues, Book 4:39]

Click here to read the rest.

[af_vet_1981]

BTW, the thread was about the catholiciism doctrine of purgatory.

Purgatory was not an original Catholic idea

PURGATORY:

By: Kaufmann Kohler
Table of Contents Rabbinic Views.
History of Purgatory.> An intermediate state through which souls are to pass in order to be purified from sin before they are admitted into the heavenly paradise. The belief in purgatory, fundamental with the Roman Catholic Church, is based by the Church authorities chiefly upon II Macc. xii. 44-45: "If he [Judas] had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the (dead. . . . Whereupon he made an atonement that they might be delivered from sin"; for this indicates that souls after death pass through an intermediate state in which they may by some intercession be saved from doom. The same view, that an atonement should be made for the dead, is expressed in Sifre, Deut. 210. The idea of an intermediate state of the soul, release from which may be obtained by intercession of the saints, is clearly dwelt upon in the Testament of Abraham, Recension A, xiv., where the description is given of a soul which, because its good and its evil deeds are equal, has to undergo the process of purification while remaining in a middle state, and on whose behalf Abraham intercedes, the angels joining him in his prayer, whereupon the soul is admitted into paradise.

Rabbinic Views.
The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: "In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: 'I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried' [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, 'He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again'" (I Sam. ii. 6). The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: "He who is 'plenteous in mercy' [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward mercy, and consequently the intermediates do not descend into Gehenna" (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3; R. H. 16b; Bacher, "Ag. Tan." i. 18). Still they also speak of an intermediate state.

Regarding the time which purgatory lasts, the accepted opinion of R. Akiba is twelve months; according to R. Johanan b. Nuri, it is only forty-nine days. Both opinions are based upon Isa. lxvi. 23-24: "From one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before Me, and they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched"; the former interpreting the words "from one new moon to another" to signify all the months of a year; the latter interpreting the words "from one Sabbath to another," in accordance with Lev. xxiii. 15-16, to signify seven weeks. During the twelve months, declares the baraita (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 4-5; R. H. 16b), the souls of the wicked are judged, and after these twelve months are over they are consumed and transformed into ashes under the feet of the righteous (according to Mal. iii. 21 [A. V. iv. 3]), whereas the great seducers and blasphemers are to undergo eternal tortures in Gehenna without cessation (according to Isa. lxvi. 24).

The righteous, however, and, according to some, also the sinners among the people of Israel for whom Abraham intercedes because they bear the Abrahamic sign of the covenant are not harmed by the fire of Gehenna even when they are required to pass through the intermediate state of purgatory ('Er. 19b; Ḥag. 27a).

History of Purgatory.
The idea of the purging fire through which the soul has to pass is found in the Zend-Avesta ("Bundahis," xxx. 20): "All men will pass into the melted metal and become pure; to the righteous it will seem as though he walks through warm milk" (comp. Enoch, lii. 6-7, lxvii. 6-7). The Church Fathers developed the idea of the "ignis purgatorius" into a dogma according to which all souls, including those of the righteous who remain unscathed, have to pass the purgatory (Origen on Ps. xxxvii., Homily 3; Lactantius, "Divinæ Institutiones," vii. 21, 4-7; Jerome on Ps. cxviii., Sermon 20; Commodianus, "Instructiones," ii. 2, 9); hence prayers and offerings for the souls in purgatory were instituted (Tertullian, "De Corona Militis," 3-4; "De Monogamia," 10; "Exhortatio Castitatis," 11; Augustine, "Enchiridion ad Lauram," 67-69, 109; Gregory I., "Dialogi," iv. 57). Hence also arose in the Church the mass for the dead corresponding in the Synagogue to the Ḳaddish (see Ḳaddish).

[MHGinTN]

Are you acquainted with the phrase ‘Bema Seat of Christ’?

[MHGinTN]

Here is a short video regarding Roman Catholicism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CisY1QTgEis

[MHGinTN]

Here is another from Ravi, regarding Mormonism. See if you find some similarities to Roman Catholicism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RArBX64Xno8

[af_vet_1981]

Are you acquainted with the phrase ‘Bema Seat of Christ’?

Yes, since post 638 read "... BTW, the thread was about the catholiciism [SIC] doctrine of purgatory." does that signify you hold the ‘Bema Seat of Christ’ is related to Purgatory ?

[MHGinTN]

As a side note, I believe the Bible is clear that the Bema Seat occurs in Heaven thus it has nothing to do with purgatory and one cannot buy an indulgence to avoid The Bema Seat moment.

[af_vet_1981]

As a side note, I believe the Bible is clear that the Bema Seat occurs in Heaven ...

Why would not the Bema be anywhere the Messiah judges?
He is going to render to every one according to one's deeds.

• Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
• Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
• For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
• And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
• And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
• I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John, Catholic chapter five, Protestant verses twenty four to thirty,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[MHGinTN]

Are you confusing The Great White Throne of Judgment with the Bema Seat?

[2nd amendment mama]

bookmark

[af_vet_1981]

Are you confusing The Great White Throne of Judgment with the Bema Seat?

Do you know what Bema (βῆμα in Greek, בִּימָה in Hebrew) means ?

V. THE LAST JUDGMENT

• 1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"623 will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man's] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."624 Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."625
  
  
• 1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man's relationship with God will be laid bare.626 The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:
  
  All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When "our God comes, he does not keep silence.". . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence."627
  
  
• 1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God's justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God's love is stronger than death.628
  
  
• 1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them "the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation."629 It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the "blessed hope" of the Lord's return, when he will come "to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed."630

[MHGinTN]

In Greece, the Bema Seat was the place athletes received their reward or shunning. You are a product of your Vatican deceivers. Do you think that will get you a pardon from your imagined purgatory?... ‘The Vatican made me that way’

[af_vet_1981]

In Greece, the Bema Seat was the place athletes received their reward or shunning.

That does not seem to reflect Strong's view

Is there a source for that theory that it is sports related ?

Usage:

This word is used 12 times:

• Matthew 27:19: "was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto"
• John 19:13: "sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement,"
• Acts 7:5: "in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give"
• Acts 12:21: "sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them."
• Acts 18:12: "brought him to the judgment seat,"
• Acts 18:16: "them from the judgment seat."
• Acts 18:17: "and beat him before the judgment seat. And Gallio cared for none"
• Acts 25:6: "sitting on the judgment seat commanded Paul to be brought."
• Acts 25:10: "I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought"
• Acts 25:17: "I sat on the judgment seat, and commanded the man to be brought forth."
• Romans 14:10: "for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."
• 2 Corinthians 5:10: "appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive"

[MHGinTN]

A source? Well, yes:

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 "If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

This event of which Paul writes is in Heaven.

Paul's word was 'bematos'. Can you find a more severe seat reference for judgment, as in a condemnation to death for a crime? (Hint: Pilote or the Sanhedrin

[af_vet_1981]

A source? Well, yes:

You claimed "In Greece, the Bema Seat was the place athletes received their reward or shunning."

Strong's does not mention it. Neither is there any mention of Bema (βῆμα in Greek, בִּימָה in Hebrew) in the passage you posted. Do you have any source for the sports reference ?

[MHGinTN]

The Meaning of the Judgment (Bema) Seat

Both Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:9 speak of the “judgment seat.” This is a translation of one Greek word, the word bema. While bema is used in the gospels and Acts of the raised platform where a Roman magistrate or ruler sat to make decisions and pass sentence (Matt. 27:19; John 19:13), its use in the epistles by Paul, because of his many allusions to the Greek athletic contests, is more in keeping with its original use among the Greeks.

This word was taken from Isthmian games where the contestants would compete for the prize under the careful scrutiny of judges who would make sure that every rule of the contest was obeyed (cf. 2 Tim. 2:5). The victor of a given event who participated according to the rules was led by the judge to the platform called the Bema. There the laurel wreath was placed on his head as a symbol of victory (cf. 1 Cor. 9:24-25).

In all of these passages, “Paul was picturing the believer as a competitor in a spiritual contest. As the victorious Grecian athlete appeared before the Bema to receive his perishable award, so the Christian will appear before Christ’s Bema to receive his imperishable award. The judge at the Bema bestowed rewards to the victors. He did not whip the losers.”2 We might add, neither did he sentence them to hard labor.
[ https://bible.org/article/doctrine-rewards-judgment-seat-bema-christ ]

I want to ask you, if we took your meaning as related to purgatory of the catholic church, does it seem correct to you that someone could buy their way out of this judgment, or do enough rosary recitation to work their way out of this judgment, or wear a talisman to ward off this judgment?

[MHGinTN]

Here is what a superb Bible teacher had to say:

There are three principal judgments that are often confused: the Bema Seat Judgment, the Sheep and Goat Judgment, and the Great White Throne. They are each quite different.There are three principal judgments that are often confused: the Bema Seat Judgment, the Sheep and Goat Judgment, and the Great White Throne. They are each quite different.

The Bema Seat[7] deals with rewards for obedience, crowns, and the call of the Bride to the Marriage of the Lamb which occurs in the Father’s house.

The Sheep and Goat Judgment[8] is on the earth. Three separate parties are involved, and mortals are judged on the basis of their “works.”

The Great White Throne[9] occurs at the end of the Millennium, deals with the unsaved dead, and ushers in the New Heavens, the New Earth, and the New Jerusalem. (Chuck Missler)

[af_vet_1981]

There are no links in that response. Is that your work or plagiarism ?

[af_vet_1981]

Now I see a reference not linked ([ https://bible.org/article/doctrine-rewards-judgment-seat-bema-christ attributed to one Samuel L. Hoyt from Bibliotheca Sacra. ]).

All Bema references in scripture have nothing to do with sports.

[MHGinTN]

Try reading the entire post before you accuse me falsely. [Hint: link at the end of the next to the last paragraph.

And here is the Missler link so maybe you will go to the site and see the excellent explanatory chart there: https://www.khouse.org/articles/2014/1213/

[MHGinTN]

IF you were familiar with Pauls many allusion to sporting events and the context of the passages in his letters, you would not make such an obtuse assertion as "All Bema references in scripture have nothing to do with sports."

Now, how about a response to: "I want to ask you, if we took your meaning as related to purgatory of the catholic church, does it seem correct to you that someone could buy their way out of this judgment, or do enough rosary recitation to work their way out of this judgment, or wear a talisman to ward off this judgment?"