"I beseech you to pray unto our Lord for me" ~ Ancient Roots of the Doctrine of Purgatory

Gloria Romanorum ^ | 9/2/17 | Florentius

[aMorePerfectUnion]

What's the point? We already showed you the references in Sacred Scripture which the Church Fathers said referred to Purgatory and you summarily rejected it.

The church fathers said all kinds of contradictory stuff. Fine. They are human and not inspired nor authoritative. They are just a record of history at the time.

Scripture does not say what was claimed. It isn't close.

Thanks for your other reference at least 100 years after the death of the last apostle.

Does this mean you have nothing before 100 ad?

If you have it, would you please post it?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

The novel doctrine wasn't introduced until 1,500 years later.

I've already demonstrated that this statement is false. Yet you continue to post it.

[MHGinTN]

And where does this purifying take place? ... You err.

[Antoninus]

You only need to go back step by step and see who Rome slaughtered for teaching truth.

Funny--we're talking about Purgatory and Gregory the Great and all you've got is a reference to Black Legend-style persecution tales of the Waldensians (who, btw, even modern Protestants would consider heretics with strange doctrines). Or do you believe that the Waldensians are of apostolic origins being founded by Saint Paul or Saint John the Baptist as they taught?

[Antoninus]

Does this mean you have nothing before 100 ad?

Did you not read this, from Our Lord Himself?

“That he which speaketh blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come." [Matthew 12:32].

The implication is pretty clear. Certainly, that's what Gregory the Great thought.

[MHGinTN]

It appears that your favorite fallacy is the undistributed middle. Not surprising from a catholiciism drowned mind.

[daniel1212]

In part one of this post, I looked at the vision of Perpetua

One of the most clear references to Purgatory appears in a late 4th century work by Saint Gregory of Nyssa,

about 200 years later, another Gregory—Pope Saint Gregory the Great—was the first to set forth the notion of Purgatory as Catholics now understand it.

Which is already an invalid foundation, for the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the OT and gospels), which is Scripture, especially Acts thru Revelation. In which distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest.

Including RC (which is different than EOs tradition) Purgatory (see post below, by the grace of God). Instead, while retaining much Scriptural Truth, whereby a relative remnant could find salvation thru contrite repentant faith in the risen Lord Jesus, on His account, yet Catholic tradition is a testimony to the progressive accretion of traditions of men which are foreign to the inspired substantive record of the Holy Spirit, from the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility as per Rome (and basically in primary cults) to the Assumption to prayer to created beings in Heaven .

[Luircin]

No, they didn’t. The Fathers of the Church wrote that the Apostles and Jesus meant exactly what they said. Go ahead—read what the Fathers of the Church wrote. The novel doctrine wasn’t introduced until 1,500 years later.

***

Let’s see here.

The Apostle Paul: “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Vatican doctrine: “You have to earn merits to gain salvation.”

Jesus himself: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”

The Apostle Paul: ‘because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”’

Vatican doctrine: “No, you have to be Roman Catholic OR ELSE.”

Sounds to me like it’s your precious heretical Roman Catholicism that’s making things up, Tony, and it’s the much-hated Protestants who rediscovered the true faith despite Roman Catholic blasphemy.

[daniel1212]

Purgatory is based upon a false premise, not only that there is a need for further atonement some sins after death, but that justification is on the basis of actual  righteousness, beginning via "infused” righteousness via the act itself of baptism (and which for infants mean without even having to believe on the Lord Jesus with all their heart, which is contrary to Acts 2:38; 8:36,37; 10:43–47- 15:7–9). And after baptism -  since the unholy sin nature remains - entering Heaven is attained  by attaining perfection of character (if by grace) thru postmortem “purifying punishments” and sufferings, commencing at death in order to be with God in full salvation.
 

And which is contrary to what Scripture most manifestly teaches, which is that of penitent faith  appropriating justification, a faith that purifies the heart (Acts 15:9) and is counted for righteousness (Romans 4:5) and renders one accepted in the Beloved (on His account) and positionally seated together with their Lord in Heaven. (Ephesians 1:6; 2:6) 

 From  where they positionally await the Lord's return and His final subduing of our "vile body," that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body," (Philippians 3:21)and which is the only transformative change after this life that the Scriptures speak of.

At which time is the judgment seat of Christ, which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure) due to the manner of material one built the church with, which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)

However, this saving justifying faith is a faith which effects obedience by the Spirit, (Romans 8:14) in word and in deed, in heart and in life, whereby "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, (Romans 8:4) insofar as we do. 

 And since faith and works go together like light and heat, sometimes they are used interchangeably as to what they effect. And which obedience includes penitent confession when convicted of not pleasing the Object of his faith for salvation, the risen Lord Jesus.

The appeal to the believer is to produce fruit consistent with faith, as a consequence of being accepted in the Beloved (on His account), to be practically (in heart and deed) as they are positionally in Christ, to be as much conformed to the Lord Jesus in this life as we can be, and will be in the resurrection. (Philippians 3:7-21)

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. (Galatians 5:25)

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. (Colossians 3:1-4)

But which progressive practical sanctification is not the cause of the sinner's justification and acceptance in Christ, but testifies to such being a believer, evidencing "things which accompany salvation," (Hebrews 6:9) and fit to be rewarded. (Revelation 3:4) For this faith, as manifested in said obedience, God will recompense (Hebrews 10:35) under grace, even though it is God who motivates and enables all obedience, (Philippians 1:12,13) while the only thing we can and must take credit for it our disobedience.

In contrast to this salvation by effectual faith, is salvation by grace thru works, as in Roman Catholicism, in which, to reiterate, it is taught that by grace one is actually made good enough to be with God via the act of baptism. And which act itself is said to regenerate and render them good enough to go to Heaven, and formally justified by their own righteousness.

However, since the carnal nature remains - and in Catholic theology few successfully attain to complete victory over any attachment to sin and perfection of character which is said to be necessary to enter Heaven - then most baptized souls are sent to Roman Catholic (EOs trend to reject Rome's) Purgatory to endure purifying torments to atone for sins they sufficiently failed to provide for while on earth, and to become good enough to enter glory.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states, “whosoever comes into God's presence must be perfectly pure for in the strictest sense His "eyes are too pure, to behold evil" (Habakkuk 1:13).

The Catholic Encyclopedia also states that St. Augustine "describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness" etc. (City of God XXI.24.)

And thus by the close of the fourth century was taught "a place of purgation..from which when purified they "were admitted unto the Holy Mount of the Lord". For " they were "not so good as to be entitled to eternal happiness".

One "cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested." (Catholic Encyclopedia>Purgatory)

CCC 1023: Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ...(provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . . or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, . . .)

"Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected." - John Paul II, Audiences, 1999.

Catholic professor Peter Kreeft states,

"...we will go to Purgatory first, and then to Heaven after we are purged of all selfishness and bad habits and character faults." Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer, p. 224

"The purpose of purgatory is to bring you up the level of spiritual excellence needed to experience the full-force presence of God." (Jimmy Akin, How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants).

There is some wiggle room as regards the conditions of purgatory since what this suffering actually entails, and how long, for such are are not dogmatically taught, but while salvation by grace thru faith as in sola fide means it is effectual faith being imputed for righteousness that justifies, salvation by grace thru works means that by grace one is actually made good enough to be with God, which premise either requires perfection of character in this life (and which merely being made clean in baptism would actually not effect) or postmortem purifying torments.

However, wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) Note in the latter case all believers were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord,” though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul. (Phil. 3:7f)

And the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4) At which time is the judgment seat of Christ, which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure) due to the manner of material one built the church with, which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)

In addition, the whole premise that suffering itself perfects a person is specious, since testing of character requires being able to choose btwn alternatives, and which this world provides. Thus it is only this world that Scripture peaks of here development of character, such as "Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations." (1 Peter 1:6)

And even in making the Lord "perfect" as in experiencing testing, being "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin," (Hebrews 4:15) then it was in this world: "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." (Hebrews 2:10)

For support,  Catholics cite 2 Maccabees  12;44-46 (atonement for the dead to free them from sin ).

However, of what support is that of praying for men whom the text clearly stated were slain for their idolatry, which is a mortal sin? Meanwhile believing this book was Scripture proper was not required until after Luther died, almost 1400 years after the last book was penned.

Other texts which Catholic  often attempt t use for support are as follows:

•  1 Peter 3:18-20;4:6 ( Peter preaching to the spirits in prison ) ,

Which was to the lost souls like those of Noah's day, "wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water," and it is obvious they had not attained to perfection of character. But with His resurrection (Matthew 27:52) the Lord set free those in Abraham's bosom, (Ephesians 4:8,9) which is not purgatory but OT paradise (Luke 23:43) which is now Heaven. (2 Corinthians 12:4) • 1 Cor 15:29-30 and 1 cor 15:29-30 (baptizing the dead)

You resort to that for support? So do the Mormons, and it supports nothing than was it was invoked for, that of their being a resurrection which some ("they," not "we") thought postmortem baptism would effect, but with nothing inferred as purgatory. And which the Holy Spirit would never fail to clearly teach on, if it indeed was of Catholic importance. • 1 Cor 315 (saved through fire)

Utterly invalidated as explained above in bold, by God's grace. • Mt 5:26 (where you will not be released until you pay the last penny)

So you must resort to dark sayings. Rather than Matthew 5:25-26 being "explicit about Purgatory" as Staples imagines this either refers to this life, or punishment in Hell, which is the context of Matthew 5:24-25 (Matthew 5:22; Matthew 5:27-29; cf. Mark 9:43), and Caths argue (Mt. 1:25) that "until" need not mean a terminus is inferred.

And here this story cannot be analogous to purgatory, since that is for forgiven souls who have some expiation to make for venial sins, but in Matthew 5:22-26, rather than a mere venial sin, the description here is of a "mortal sin." And neither was this man forgiven, but was damned, and given the vast amount he had to pay, i think "Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing" (Matthew 5:26) is saying he never will come out, • Mt 12:32 (sin is forgiven in this age or the next)

That is simple, except Rome rejects the 1,000 year reign of Christ in which there will be sin and forgiveness of sins, as Ezekiel shows in his many chapters which defy then as being mere allegory. • 1 John 5:16-17 (degrees of sin distinguished)

Which refers to apostasy, and there are degrees of sin, and of accountability and guilt, thus degrees of punishment, (Matthew 11:20-24) but which description are only about Hell, not some interim place.

• Mark 9:49 (all will be salted by fire)

Which is simply another example of the egregious extrapolation you must resort to in order attempt to postulate some sort of support for what you can only wish Scripture manifestly taught, but which it does not!
Here the only postmortem reality that is seen in the context is that of Hell: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:48) and otherwise it speaks of salt (Mark 9:49,50; cf. Lev. 2:13; Eze 43:24) which represent holiness, which works for peace, and one either has it or they are good for nothing, (Mt. 5:13) and and there is nothing that infers purgatory in order to get it or more of it, though this would be one of many places we could expect to see it if it were true.

[daniel1212]

Missed it did they? "For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." What does saved as by fire mean?

Read it in context, and in conjunction with relaed texts, which reveal that it simply cannot refer to Purgatory (which even Catholic scholars admit) even just based upon the fact that the judgment seat awaits the 2nd coming:

Which cannot be Purgatory due to the fact that,

1. The judgment event of 1Co. 3 is the judgment seat of Christ, with its giving of rewards and loss thereof, which does not occur until the Lords return and the believers resurrection. (1Cor. 3:8ff; 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) versus purgatory, which (typically prolonged) suffering commences at death in order to enable souls to enter Heaven.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5:10)

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; (2 Timothy 4:1)

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (2 Timothy 4:8)

[ The judgment of 1 Cor. 3:15 will reveal what manner of workmanship they were building church with, for “Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire,” and while saving faith is one that characteristically walks in the obedience of faith, (Heb. 5:9) believers may suffer loss of rewards due to their manner of workmanship.

The fire burns up the fake stones, which like the tares of Mt. 13:40 at the end, are represented here as wood, hay or stubble, while the precious stones with fire-tried faith (1Pt. 1:7) endure, and gain rewards for the instruments of their faithfulness. Thus Paul says to the Thessalonians, "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? " (1 Thess. 2:19; cf. Rv. 3:11) And to the Corinthians, “we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.” 2Cor. 1:14) And to the Philippians, that being “my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.” (Phil. 4:1)

2. Wherever NT Scripture manifestly deals with the next life location for believers, it is to be with the Lord . (Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; Heb, 12:22,23; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) Not only did the penitent criminal go to "paradise" at death (Lk. 23:43; cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7) as did Stephen, (Acts 7:59) but so would Paul and co. be with the Lord once absent from the body (Phil. 1:23,24) - even though Paul told the Philippians that was he not “already perfect.” (Phil. 3:12). Likewise he stated to the Corinthians, "We [plural] are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:8) and so would every believer if the Lord returned in their lifetime: “to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1Thess. 4:17; 1Cor. 15:51ff - even though many believers were in need of greater holiness. (2Cor. 7:1)
Paul confessed he was not already practically perfect, (Phil. 3:12) but he earnestly desired to become as much in this life (to "know him, and the power of his resurrection, being made conformable unto his death" - Philippians 3:10) as he would via the resurrection, yet he knew that if he died before that then he would be with the Lord.

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight). We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:6-8)

For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: (Philippians 1:21-23)

I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. (Philippians 3:14-15)

Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (Philippians 3:17)

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Philippians 3:20-21)

3. And as expressed in that verse and others, the resurrection is the only transformative event the believer manifestly looks forward to after this life (Rm. 8:23; 2Co. 5:1-4; Phil 3:20,21; 1Jn. 3:2) — not purgatory, which suffering commences at death in order to enable souls to enter Heaven.

4. Furthermore, Scripture only reveals growth in grace and overcoming as being realized in this world, with its temptations and trials, (1 Peter 1:6-7; 1Jn.2:14; 5:4,5; Rv. 2.7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21) where alternatives to submitting to God can be made (suffering itself does not make one mature) and thus it was here that the Lord Himself was made “perfect,” (Heb. 2:10) as in being “in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” (Heb. 4:15)

Thus what Scripture teaches is that it is on earth that testing and overcoming takes place, and that the elect go to be with the Lord upon death, or at His return, whichever comes first, and then they are judged as to the manner of works, reflecting their faith, and rewarded or suffer loss of rewards.

While perfection of character in this life. Mt 5:48 is invoked in support of this perfection being needed to be with God (which in context refers to treating your enemy benevolently), yet this does not teach that the achievement of absolute moral perfection in this life is a perquisite for salvation, which idea requires redefining salvation as to mean progressing to a state of being just enough by moral perfection to be with the Lord, and that being absent from the body means present in purgatory, not with the Lord, contrary to what is expressly stated. And which is akin to placing one under the Law, (Gal. 3:10) versus justification by imputed righteousness (justifying the unGodly by faith: Rm. 4:5) appropriated by a faith, but a faith which effects holiness.

For while salvific faith is one which characteristically effects the “obedience of faith” toward its Object (which faith in any moral authority will do), and which is an overcoming kind of faith, (Rv. 2,3), and grows towards the maturity which is called perfection, (Col. 1:28; 4:12; Ja. 1:4; 3:2; 1Jn. 4:17) and which faith has “great recompense of reward,” (Heb. 10:35), yet Scripture states that believers (being of true faith) are presently saved (Titus 3:5), and positionally perfect (Heb. 10:14) and seated in Heaven. (Eph. 2:6) And thus Christ can dwell with them now - "Christ in you, the hope of glory (Col. 1:27) - and as shown, they can and will go to be with the Lord at death, or at the Lord's return.

Finally, this RC interpretation of 1Co. 3 is not one which is even officially taught by Rome as requiring assent, and is contradicted by the notes in the official RC Bible which notes  state,

The text of ⇒ 1 Cor 3:15 has sometimes been used to support the notion of purgatory, though it does not envisage this. - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PZ8.HTM#$4AC ^

When Christ says in Matt 12:32 "but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come", what does that imply?

Does it ever occur to you that isolationist exegesis is not going to work well with those who know Scripture, and thus compare Scripture with Scripture? The world or age to come is that which Catholicism denies, that of the literal thousand year reign of Christ (after the resurrection of the elect):

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4)

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Revelation 20:5)

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (Revelation 20:2)

[Antoninus]

Ah, the cut-and-paste data-dumpers have arrived. Joy.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“That he which speaketh blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come." [Matthew 12:32].

This has nothing to do with purgatory. That is an idea you are bringing to the text.

Leaving aside what "speaking blesphemy against the Spirit" means, Christ says it will never be forgiven in this life or the next.

Paul writes in Corinthians that the works of believers - the saved - will be tested by fire. Obviously, to be a believer, you would have to be forgiven of all your sins. Failing that, you won't be rewarded for works. Ergo, these believers never blasphemed the Spirit.

...........

Do you have any evidence from before 100ad that supports your claims? If so, it would be great if you would share it here for us all to discuss.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

btw, even modern Protestants would consider heretics with strange doctrines

Today, sadly, they have slipped into liberal heresy. During their first many hundred years leading to their slaughter by Catholics, this was not so. Those original doctrines would almost entirely be supported today by evangelicals.

to Black Legend-style persecution tales of the Waldensians

It both happened and was apologized for by a pope.

Or do you believe that the Waldensians are of apostolic origins being founded by Saint Paul or Saint John the Baptist as they taught?

What the Waldensians believed was apostolic. What Rome teaches today is not.

[Antoninus]

What the Waldensians believed was apostolic. What Rome teaches today is not.

They taught that they were founded by Saint Paul (or St. John the Baptist). Do you believe that, or was the story made up out of whole cloth?

[Antoninus]

This has nothing to do with purgatory. That is an idea you are bringing to the text.

I'm not bringing it into the text, Gregory the Great did--one of the great saints of the Church. If you have an issue, take it up with him. I just think he's right, as opposed to the inventors of novel doctrines who showed up 1,500 years later.

[daniel1212]

So answer me this. If Gregory of Nyssa got this wrong....then *why the flip didn't anyone correct him*?

And just how do we know he was not? Or that his views had the so-called "unanimou s unanimous consent ” of the fathers? For Catholicism destroyed much she did not like (while making use of forgeries ), while it is estimated that we only have available a small percentage of all that so-called "church fathers" as estimated to have penned.

However, with its unsurpassed numbers of manuscripts (which makes the Islamic allegation that the church radically changed the Bible to be impossible) we have the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed, and which must be the determinitive standard today.

And the idea that such a doctrine as Purgatory would not be clearly taught is absurd, when the second coming and the believers transformation, and the judgment seat of Christ is clearly taught.

Thus RCs primary appeal is to vain tradition, and then trying to force Scripture, like an abused servant, to support it! Woe.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

They taught that they were founded by Saint Paul (or St. John the Baptist). Do you believe that, or was the story made up out of whole cloth?

I have no belief about that claim.

Their doctrines of salvation I agree with largely. They later joined with the Reformation, being so similar.

They were founded in the 12th century, proving your claim not true, that these beliefs only began 1500 years after Christ.

Nice try moving the goalpost though 😊

[HarleyD]

"...But yet we must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins: because our Savior says, “That he which speaketh blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come [Matthew 12:32]."

Why on earth would you believe there is a Purgatory fire from this verse? You're not going to be forgiven in this world or the next. It is wrong to assume that you will be forgiven in the next. The text does not state that.

This is a great example of how to develop heretical theology. Someone has a thought. Another builds slightly incorrectly on that thought. And still another until you are off the rails. If a person can get a group of people to believe that they know what they are talking about-POOF-new doctrine.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Here is a list of Waldensian teachings from Wikipedia. For this, Catholics slaughtered women, babies and infants.

Waldensians held and preached a number of truths as they read from the Bible. These included:

The atoning death and justifying righteousness of Christ
The Godhead
The fall of man
The incarnation of the Son
A denial of purgatory as the "invention of the Antichrist"[11]
The value of voluntary poverty

They also rejected a number of concepts that were widely held in Christian Europe of the era.

For example, the Waldensians held that temporal offices and dignities were not meant for preachers of the Gospel; that relics were simply bones that should not be regarded as special or holy; that pilgrimage served only to spend one's money; that flesh might be eaten any day if one's appetite served one; that holy water was not a whit more efficacious than rain water; and that prayer in a barn was just as effectual as if offered in a church.

They were accused, moreover, of having scoffed at the doctrine of transubstantiation, and of having spoken blasphemously of the Catholic Church as the harlot of the Apocalypse.[12] They rejected what they perceived as the idolatry of the Catholic Church and considered the Papacy as the Antichrist of Rome.[13]

[daniel1212]

Carved right in stone, the evidence of prayers for the dead. Christians who were buried in the first centuries asked the people reading their gravestones to pray for them.

Indeed, like why would such also pray to created beings in Heaven when there is no one single record of anyone but pagans doing so in the entire God-inspired record of Scripture - despite there being over 200(!) prayers therein , or any teaching to pray to them?

By 90AD we know false beliefs were gaining disciples, and the history of Catholicism continues that record.

And praying for the dead was a latter development among some Jews, flowing from paganism.

...it should come as no surprise that we do find instances, particularly in the domain of popular belief, in which non-Christians prayed for the suffering dead in the other world.. .

These practices developed around the beginning of the Christian era. They were a phenomenon of the times, particularly noticeable in Egypt, the great meeting ground for peoples and religions. Traveling in Egypt around 50 s.c., Diodorus of Sicily was struck by the funerary customs: "As soon as the casket containing the corpse is placed on the bark, the survivors call upon the infernal gods and beseech them to admit the soul to the place received for pious men. The crowd adds its own cheers, together with pleas that the deceased be allowed to enjoy eternal life in Hades, in the society of the good.

The passage cited earlier from the Second Book of Maccabees, which was composed by an Alexandrian Jew during the half-century preceding Diodorus's journey, should no doubt be seen against this background... It then becomes clear that at the time of Judas Maccabeus--around 170 s.c., a surprisingly innovative period—prayer for the dead was not practiced, but that a century later it was practiced by certain Jews. (The Birth of Purgatory By Jacques Le Goff. pp. 45,46 , transcribed using Free Online OCR - convert scanned PDF and images to Word, JPEG to Word, emp. mine)