"I beseech you to pray unto our Lord for me" ~ Ancient Roots of the Doctrine of Purgatory

Gloria Romanorum ^ | 9/2/17 | Florentius

[aMorePerfectUnion]

...and one who can't count. 4th century is the 300s. So 300 years after Christ....and only a few decades after the last great persecution.

That the best argument you can put forth? It wasn't 500 years. It was really 300 Years?

That is unconvincing. It was still hundreds of years after the lives of the apostles.

If Gregory of Nyssa got this wrong....then *why the flip didn't anyone correct him*?

I wasn't there and can only guess, as could you. Historically, anyone opposing the established Pagan/Christian church was tortured and or executed. Everyone supporting this church was OK with them.

You might as well ask, when Rome added a class of demigods, mirroring the paganism from Greece, why didn't anyone correct them? When they made dear Mary into a demigoddess and gave her false titles, why didn't anyone correct them?

So either the whole church..every single Christian theologian was corrupted *at the same time*....

I already addressed this in my earlier posts. God has ALWAYS had his people that knew and believed the truth in faith - even when Rome was killing them for following God. Men, women and children, slaughtered as martyrs by Rome, for believing what God said. So your statement is not true.

There are more important questions you did not ask.

Where is it supported in the Scriptures?

Where is the evidence this was believed in an unbroken chain from the time of Christ and His Apostles??

as to this comment...

you are the one who was wrong and this is what the early Church believed from the beginning.

This should be the easiest claim to support, if it were true. Simply show that the early church did believe this from the time of the Apostles on. Show an Apostle teaching this. Show it happened before 100ad, during their lives.

That would support your claim.

I'd love to see it FRiend.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“who died in Phrygia ca. A.D. 167:

‘”He that discerneth these things, every fellow-believer, let him pray for Abercius”

“Carved right in stone, the evidence of prayers for the dead.

..............

Here’s an even earlier reference to heresy...

Revelation 2-3:22

Churches practicing heresy. This before the heresy you note, so it is not surprising that there was heresy afterwards also. In fact, I do not believe the Church has ever been free of heresy from within or without.

[Antoninus]

Why? Why would they do that?

Uhhh, because they felt that the prayers of the faithful were efficacious after death? But again, let's throw away the witness of the earliest Christians in favor of guys who had a grudge against the Church 1,400 years later. That makes sense.

[Don Corleone]

Since time effectively ends at death, becomes infinite, the concept of Purgatory seems meaningless.

[Antoninus]

Here’s an even earlier reference to heresy...

Ah. I will never comprehend the logic that is comfortable calling bishops who lived a generation or two from the Apostles "heretics" (such as Saint Abercius whose story is fascinating) while accepting and lauding strange and novel doctrines that erupted 1,500 years after the Apostles.

[Claud]

I wasn't there and can only guess, as could you.

No we can't only guess, we have plenty of writings from this period from people who lived through it, and we can read what they had to say about the time.

Unless, of course, if we have such a bee in our bonnet about "tradition" that we just ignore all that priceless information.

Historically, anyone opposing the established Pagan/Christian church was tortured and or executed. Everyone supporting this church was OK with them.

Um...what? This was in the 300s. There were orthodox Christians, Arians, Manichaeans, Docetists all kinds of people floating around, and there was certainly no Inquisition to stop them. People had every opportunity to make the case...if they thought it was a case worth making.

You might as well ask, when Rome added a class of demigods, mirroring the paganism from Greece, why didn't anyone correct them? When they made dear Mary into a demigoddess and gave her false titles, why didn't anyone correct them?

Easy. BECAUSE THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN. Mary was never elevated to any sort of divine anything, and in fact when one sect DID do something like that (the Collyridians) Epiphanius called it a heresy.

Simply show that the early church did believe this from the time of the Apostles on. Show an Apostle teaching this. Show it happened before 100ad, during their lives.

Read down thread. I posted the Scriptural support from St. Paul and implied from Christ Himself. Antoninus posted evidence from the Passion of Perpetua and Felicity around 200, and I posted evidence from an inscription of 167.

Of course, you are going to say my interpretation is wrong and that every bit of evidence I cite is evidence of the paganizing corruption of the true Christian Church.

Yeah sure. Every instance of prayers for the dead are wrong. It's all some great big Catholic, Orthodox, and Oriental conspiracy against the First Baptist Church of Phrygia or some other imaginary ecclesial body that kept the "pure doctrines" of the Scripture intact.

Long story short...I can show you tons of evidence the doctrine was upheld. Can you show me any that it was rejected?

[Claud]

Churches practicing heresy. This before the heresy you note, so it is not surprising that there was heresy afterwards also. In fact, I do not believe the Church has ever been free of heresy from within or without.

Ok, but you seem to believe that this heresy was so absolutely total that it completely obliterated any trace of "orthodoxy" (as you define it) for 1500 years.

That is patently ridiculous. Even the most noxious heresies left plenty of traces--like people refuting them.

[Claud]

Exactly. But what else can they do but tear apart history to defend this theology?

They inherited a ramshackle foundation by that execrably scrupulous heretic Luther. Sin boldly and all that.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Ok, but you seem to believe that this heresy was so absolutely total that it completely obliterated any trace of "orthodoxy" (as you define it) for 1500 years.

Claud, before the close of the New Testament *during the life of John, the Apostle* Christ showed him by revelation, that there was *already heresy in the churches.*

Orthodoxy was still mixed in, as it is today. But they took a turn toward falsehood. Some were correctable, according to Revelation and were warned to turn back. Others were condemned, and their candlestick removed. You can read all about it yourself. Christ said it.

So, no, all "traces of orthodoxy" were not removed.

Rome still mixes much orthodoxy with syncretic pagan practices and heresy, but had lost the gospel of grace hundreds of years ago.. in fact, slaughtered those who understood it.

Has Christ already removed her candlestick?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Claud,

“Mary was never elevated to any sort of divine anything, and in fact when one sect DID do something like that (the Collyridians) Epiphanius called it a heresy.”

Mary was and is called all sorts of heretical divine titles.

Ping to Elsie, keeper of the false-titles-of-mary-list.

“I posted the Scriptural support from St. Paul and implied from Christ Himself. “

Clearly speaking about works being judged and not people. Works being tested and either coming forth as “gold and precious gems”, or “wood hay and stubble” being burned. People were not being tested, nor burned. In fact, Paul says the person who has all his wasted works burned up is saved. This happens at the Bema seat and is for the saved. It only determines rewards in heaven.

“Every instance of prayers for the dead are wrong. “

We agree on this statement.

“I can show you tons of evidence the doctrine was upheld.”

Great! That is what I asked for. Please go ahead now and post tons of evidence from before 100ad that demonstrates anyone believing or teaching this doctrine Claud.

Thank you.

Best.

[LeonardFMason]

AMEN.

“If we can in any way pay for our sins, Christ’s death was insufficient.

The Catholic doctrine of purgatory is error, and a false gospel.”

AMEN.

Purgatory does not exist.

[Antoninus]

Claud, before the close of the New Testament *during the life of John, the Apostle* Christ showed him by revelation, that there was *already heresy in the churches.*

Claud, don't you see that it took 1,500 years to figure out all these heresies, and then once they were figured out, everyone's own personal interpretation of Sacred Scripture was now acceptable, leading to 40,000+ additional heresies except one's own personal belief--which is the true gospel?

Come on, that makes more sense than actually reading the Church Fathers.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

"I will never comprehend the logic that is comfortable calling bishops who lived a generation or two from the Apostles "heretics" (such as Saint Abercius whose story is fascinating) while accepting and lauding strange and novel doctrines that erupted 1,500 years after the Apostles.'

Antonius,

Any bishop who teaches that which can not be demonstrated in the Holy Scriptures or the Apostle's teaching, is giving his own opinion and indeed, it can be heretical.

Since there was heresy being taught in the church during the time of John, it is not surprising it has existed ever since.

"while accepting and lauding strange and novel doctrines that erupted 1,500 years after the Apostles.'"

And here you are making a straw man argument - a trope - that is false in its assumption that salvation by grace through faith was never present before 1,500.

It is easily shown that Rome and her peeps and popes hunted down and slaughtered the Waldensians who lived peacefully in the mountains of Italy, long before Luther came on the scene.

This is just one example that disproves your claim FRiend. It is sufficient to do so.

Here are early drawings, showing the slaughter of innocent women and children believers who entrusted themselves to Christ along.

Rome couldn't abide by that.

If you'd like more pictures, there are many that show this peaceful group of believers (who began in the 12th century) taught almost identically what Luther taught hundreds of year later.

It is worth remembering these people of faith, children of God, who were slaughtered by pagan Rome's pope and peeps.

In case you doubt Rome did this, here is the apology Pope Francis issued for the sins of Rome's slaughter of the Waldensians.

You only need to go back step by step and see who Rome slaughtered for teaching truth.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Pope Francis asks Waldensian Christians to forgive the Church

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Come on, that makes more sense than actually reading the Church Fathers.

Believers read and appreciate the Church Fathers, but they were not infallible, and often did not agree with each other. Even Rome picks and chooses what they like about each one.

Scripture stands alone as directly from God and unchangeable.

[jjotto]

Purgatory seems borrowed from the Jewish concept of Gehenna/Gehinnom.

[Luircin]

Well, let’s see here.

The Apostles wrote, and Jesus spoke.

The Vatican claims that the Apostles meant the exact opposite of what they actually wrote, and that Jesus meant the exact opposite of what he actually said.

And I should believe the Vatican... why, exactly?

If you’re going to claim that the actual letters of the Apostles and the actual words of Jesus mean the opposite of what they actually say, then you’re gonna have to provide some evidence beyond self-contradictory ‘church fathers,’ many of whom also taught in opposition to current Roman doctrine anyways.

[Antoninus]

Please go ahead now and post tons of evidence from before 100ad that demonstrates anyone believing or teaching this doctrine Claud.

What's the point? We already showed you the references in Sacred Scripture which the Church Fathers said referred to Purgatory and you summarily rejected it. But here's another epitaph for you:

"To my sweetest wife Lucifera who was all sweetness whereas she left her husband the greatest sorrow, and she has deserved that an epitaph should be inscribed to her, to the end that whoever of the brethren shall read it may ask God that her holy and innocent spirit may be received to God."

Left by an anonymous "heretic" grieving husband in the Roman catacombs and dated to the AD 200s.

[MHGinTN]

Lol ... does this fallen under the category ‘traditions’?

[Antoninus]

The Vatican claims that the Apostles meant the exact opposite of what they actually wrote...

No, they didn't. The Fathers of the Church wrote that the Apostles and Jesus meant exactly what they said. Go ahead--read what the Fathers of the Church wrote. The novel doctrine wasn't introduced until 1,500 years later.