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Unearthed Aryan cities rewrite history
The Australian ^ | 04 Oct 2010 | The Sunday Times

Posted on 10/04/2010 12:15:28 AM PDT by Palter

BRONZE Age cities archaeologists say could be the precursor of Western civilisation is being uncovered in excavations on the Russian steppe.

Twenty of the spiral-shaped settlements, believed to be the original home of the Aryan people, have been identified, and there are about 50 more suspected sites. They all lie buried in a region more than 640km long near Russia's border with Kazakhstan.

The cities are thought to have been built 3500-4000 years ago, soon after the Great Pyramid in Egypt. They are about the same size as several of the city states of ancient Greece, which started to come into being in Crete at about the same time.

If archeologists confirm the cities as Aryan, they could be the remnants of a civilisation that spread through Europe and much of Asia. Their language has been identified as the precursor of modern Indo-European tongues, including English. Words such as brother, guest and oxen have been traced back to this prototype.

"Potentially, this could rival ancient Greece in the age of the heroes," said British historian Bettany Hughes, who spent much of the northern summer exploring the region for a BBC radio program, Tracking the Aryans.

"We are all told that there is this kind of mother tongue, proto-Indo-European, from which all the languages we know emerge.

"I was very excited to hear on the archeological grapevine that in exactly the period I am an expert in, this whole new Bronze Age civilisation had been discovered on the steppe of southern Siberia."

She described driving for seven hours into the steppe grasslands with chief archeologist Gennady Zdanovich. "He took me to this expanse of grass; you couldn't tell there was anything special. Then, as he pointed to the ground, suddenly I realised I was walking across a buried city," she said.

"Every now and again you suddenly notice these ghostly shapes of fortresses and cattle sheds and homes and religious sites. I would not have known these had he not shown them to me."

The shape of each of the cities, which are mainly in the Chelyabinsk district, resembles an ammonite fossil, divided into segments with a spiral street plan. The settlements, which would each have housed about 2000 people -- the same as an ancient Greek city such as Mycenae -- are all surrounded by a ditch and have a square in the middle.

The first city, known as Arkaim, was discovered in 1989, soon after the soviet authorities allowed non-military aerial photography for the first time.

The full extent of the remains is only now becoming apparent. Items that have so far been dug up include many pieces of pottery covered in swastikas, which were widely used ancient symbols of the sun and eternal life. The Nazis appropriated the Aryans and the swastika as symbols of their so-called master race. Ms Hughes believes that some of the strongest evidence that the cities could be the home of the Aryans comes from a series of horse burials.

Several ancient Indian texts believed to have been written by Aryans recount similar rituals. "These ancient Indian texts and hymns describe sacrifices of horses and burials and the way the meat is cut off and the way the horse is buried with its master," she said. "If you match this with the way the skeletons and the graves are being dug up in Russia, they are a millimetre-perfect match."


TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: archaeology; aryan; aryaninvasion; aryans; bronzeage; epigraphyandlanguage; godsgravesglyphs; indusvalley; indusvalleyscript; russia; victorsariyiannidis; viktorsarianidi; viktorsarigiannidis
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1 posted on 10/04/2010 12:15:35 AM PDT by Palter
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To: SunkenCiv

Aryan, ping.


2 posted on 10/04/2010 12:16:01 AM PDT by Palter (If voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it. ~ Mark Twain)
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To: Palter
"We are all told that there is this kind of mother tongue, proto-Indo-European, from which all the languages we know emerge.

All the Indo-European languages, that is. Not Semitic (Hebrew, Arabic) or Sino-Tibetan languages:


3 posted on 10/04/2010 12:20:22 AM PDT by James C. Bennett
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To: SunkenCiv; blam
Several ancient Indian texts believed to have been written by Aryans recount similar rituals. "These ancient Indian texts and hymns describe sacrifices of horses and burials and the way the meat is cut off and the way the horse is buried with its master," she said. "If you match this with the way the skeletons and the graves are being dug up in Russia, they are a millimetre-perfect match."

Of interest ping.

4 posted on 10/04/2010 12:21:42 AM PDT by James C. Bennett
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To: Palter

I never knew the origin of the swastika. Back in the days of these Arayans, the swastika meant something entirely different and I’m sure much more benign.


5 posted on 10/04/2010 12:22:40 AM PDT by TheThinker (Communists: taking over the world one kooky doomsday scenario at a time.)
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To: Palter

6 posted on 10/04/2010 12:24:27 AM PDT by counterpunch (End the Government Monopoly!)
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To: Palter

Minas Tirith!


7 posted on 10/04/2010 12:27:15 AM PDT by TruthConquers (Delendae sunt publicae scholae)
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To: James C. Bennett

One of those trunks, below the slavic languages, says “Islamic”. I am confused.


8 posted on 10/04/2010 12:30:01 AM PDT by Defiant (Liberals care more about the Koran than they did about Terri Schiavo.)
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To: Defiant
Someone re-made the original with an error. The older one has (SLAVIC) there, instead of 'Islamic':


9 posted on 10/04/2010 12:41:51 AM PDT by James C. Bennett
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To: Palter
That whole border region eventually became known as Scythia. The Scythians apparently were an Iranian tribe that moved northward into the steppes around 1,000 BC. Perhaps that was just a case of a subtribe coming back into the ancient lands. The ancient Sarmatians are also from this area. They began their decline with the Hun invasions from the east.
10 posted on 10/04/2010 1:10:34 AM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: Palter

bookmark


11 posted on 10/04/2010 2:12:14 AM PDT by StAnDeliver (/)
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To: James C. Bennett

The type of horse is the Akhal-teke. This is an ancient breed used as a war horse - having great stamina and speed.

The breed was kept pure by Turkomen tribes who live east of the Caspian Sea.

I have heard about these grave sites only they’ve been referred to as “Scythians”.


12 posted on 10/04/2010 2:34:40 AM PDT by SatinDoll (NO FOREIGN NATIONALS AS OUR PRESIDENT!)
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To: Palter
Related information contained in this thread:

On The Presence Of Non-Chinese At Anyang

13 posted on 10/04/2010 5:31:21 AM PDT by blam
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To: Palter

But I thought science had determined there was no “cohesive” group of “Aryan” peoples sharing a common culture/language?

Oops...guess these discoveries and the recent proving of the “Aryan Invasion Theory” through genetics forced mainstream science to change their stance...for the nth time.

Soft science is caught in a trap of its own making...namely, the curse of education. It seems that the more you think you know, the less you’re willing to admit you don’t know. Everything has to have an elaborate theory, an explanation, no matter how small the find. The large majority of social scientists have a hard time simply saying...we don’t know.


14 posted on 10/04/2010 7:00:49 AM PDT by Spike Knotts
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To: TheThinker

Yeah, when 5,000 “Aryans” rode into India, killed the men and took the women as wives...I’m sure the swastika banner they brought with them was considered extremely benign.

You admit you don’t know the origin of a symbol (until recently), but you’re giving lessons on what that very symbol meant to ancient peoples, friend and foe? Ok, Professor.


15 posted on 10/04/2010 7:05:47 AM PDT by Spike Knotts
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To: James C. Bennett

Thank, that explains it. Hopefully that will be corrected someday, or pretty soon, we will have jihadis claiming that they have given us our language.


16 posted on 10/04/2010 8:05:37 AM PDT by Defiant (Liberals care more about the Koran than they did about Terri Schiavo.)
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To: Palter

later


17 posted on 10/04/2010 8:34:20 AM PDT by pappyone
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To: Spike Knotts
Yeah, when 5,000 “Aryans” rode into India, killed the men and took the women as wives...I’m sure the swastika banner they brought with them was considered extremely benign.

I didn't know this either. But do are you really comparing some ancient battle to the horror of the Holocaust? Perhaps someone needs a lesson on perspective.

18 posted on 10/04/2010 10:56:49 AM PDT by TheThinker (Communists: taking over the world one kooky doomsday scenario at a time.)
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To: TheThinker

The entire argument that there was any conflict between the Aryans who settled India, and the natives who were pushed into the fringes of the Indian landmass, is controversial.

No record of a violent demise of the Indus Valley Civilisation exists. Not to mention, current evidence points to ecological factors for the destruction of that highly-developed civilisation. No mention of war with natives have been recorded in Hindu scriptures. Most wars detailed are of those between Aryan kingdoms.


19 posted on 10/04/2010 1:19:06 PM PDT by James C. Bennett
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To: James C. Bennett

>Indus Valley Civilisation

One of the Great Historical Sadnesses attributable to “modern” Pakistan is the virtual lack of interest in further significant research into the subterranean layered ruins below the current sites of Harappa, MohenjoDaro and others.

PreIslamic don’t count, don’tcha know?

They used to showcase Buddhist shrines in the NW to European tourists, but I believe that is kaput now due to jihad.


20 posted on 10/04/2010 1:27:57 PM PDT by swarthyguy (KIDS! Deficit, Debt,Taxes!Pfft Lookit the bright side of our legacy -Ummrika is almost SmokFrei!)
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To: James C. Bennett

>sacrifices of horses and burials

In her fiction novel, The King Must Die, Mary Renault, a scholar of Ancient Greece describes a horse ritual sacrifice in Greece that is eerily similar to ancient Aryan/Vedic practices.


21 posted on 10/04/2010 1:32:07 PM PDT by swarthyguy (KIDS! Deficit, Debt,Taxes!Pfft Lookit the bright side of our legacy -Ummrika is almost SmokFrei!)
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To: TheThinker

>the swastika meant something entirely different and I’m sure much more benign.

It still does, not only in India, but also in Nepal and in the Buddhist societies of SE Asia.

In the West, the Nazi association reigns supreme.


22 posted on 10/04/2010 1:38:47 PM PDT by swarthyguy (KIDS! Deficit, Debt,Taxes!Pfft Lookit the bright side of our legacy -Ummrika is almost SmokFrei!)
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To: swarthyguy

The American “indians” also had the swastika. It is a simple enough symmetrical design to be independently designed around the world, I’m sure.


23 posted on 10/04/2010 3:29:41 PM PDT by TexasRepublic (Socialism is the gospel of envy and the religion of thieves)
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To: Palter; James C. Bennett; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 1010RD; 21twelve; 24Karet; ...

· GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach ·
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Thanks Palter for posting and pinging, and thanks James C. Bennett for the ping and comment.

Blast from the Past.

Just adding to the catalog, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
 

· History topic · history keyword · archaeology keyword · paleontology keyword ·
· Science topic · science keyword · Books/Literature topic · pages keyword ·


24 posted on 10/04/2010 4:31:59 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Democratic Underground... matters are worse, as their latest fund drive has come up short...)
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To: TexasRepublic; SunkenCiv
It is a simple enough symmetrical design to be independently designed around the world, I’m sure.

But if you believe in Panspermia, the process where the more people breed the more room they need, you understand as they spread they took their traditions with them. Worldwide. But unscrupled people always pop up and twist these traditions into some perversion for their own nefarious purposes. Kinda sorta like when I was a little kid and we had Christmas. But now we have The Holiday Season. ;-)

25 posted on 10/04/2010 5:09:09 PM PDT by bigheadfred ("We built a tower of stone. With our flesh and bone. To see him fly ." (RIP RJD))
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Viktor Sarianidi site:freerepublic.com
Google
some past results:

26 posted on 10/04/2010 5:43:50 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Democratic Underground... matters are worse, as their latest fund drive has come up short...)
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Fredrik T. Hiebert
Google

27 posted on 10/04/2010 5:51:40 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Democratic Underground... matters are worse, as their latest fund drive has come up short...)
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And btw, nice tree James, I just stole it. :') Here's one I stole from someone else around here:
IndoEuropean Family Tree

28 posted on 10/04/2010 5:55:09 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Democratic Underground... matters are worse, as their latest fund drive has come up short...)
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both of these I've reposted are width=400, the images are wider.
Image and video hosting by TinyPic

29 posted on 10/04/2010 5:57:38 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Democratic Underground... matters are worse, as their latest fund drive has come up short...)
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To: Palter

I have books many, many years old which trace the Celtic and Germanic people to the Russian steppes.

Same goes for proto-Indoeuropean languages.

The term “Ayran” does not appear widely in my soures.

Iranians like to call themselves “Ayrans” to distinguish themselves from Arabs.

Hitler and fellow travellors refered to “Ayrans.”


30 posted on 10/04/2010 6:03:18 PM PDT by truth_seeker
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Image and video hosting by TinyPic

31 posted on 10/04/2010 6:03:19 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Democratic Underground... matters are worse, as their latest fund drive has come up short...)
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Image and video hosting by TinyPic

32 posted on 10/04/2010 6:06:31 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Democratic Underground... matters are worse, as their latest fund drive has come up short...)
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IndoEuropean Family Tree

33 posted on 10/04/2010 6:08:55 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Democratic Underground... matters are worse, as their latest fund drive has come up short...)
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To: Spike Knotts

“I don’t know” - the response of an honest scholar.

Great point.


34 posted on 10/04/2010 6:34:08 PM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: swarthyguy

So Islam and communism create similar outcomes, no?


35 posted on 10/04/2010 6:35:49 PM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: Palter

Arkaim

36 posted on 10/04/2010 7:03:59 PM PDT by concentric circles
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To: bigheadfred

quibble, panspermia refers to the seeding of life (or its components) from space; the word you’re looking for is probably diffusion.


37 posted on 10/04/2010 7:05:23 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Democratic Underground... matters are worse, as their latest fund drive has come up short...)
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To: Palter

bump


38 posted on 10/04/2010 9:33:58 PM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: Spike Knotts; TheThinker; James C. Bennett
Actually there is no evidence for any Aryan Invasion. The Indus valley civilisation (of Caucasian Dravidians), died out probably due to environmental reasons at the same time the Minoan civilisation and the Hittite civilisations collapsed. There are no mass burial sites and the cities are not destroyed, just abandoned. The Swastika has always been a symbol of continuity just like the Chakra -- the Nazis only made it into a war symbol.

A closer reading of the Vedas sees that the war against the Dasyus seem more to be a war between Indics (who raised Devas over Asuras in their pantheon) and Iranics (who raised Ahuras like Ahura Mazda over Daevas in THEIR pantheon). The Ramayana could be interpreted as an ARyanic-Dravidian war in Ceylon, but the Tamils were never in Ceylon until British times, they concentrating more on their Empires in Indonesia (the Srivijaya Empire etc).
39 posted on 10/04/2010 11:52:36 PM PDT by Cronos (This Church is holy, the one Church, the true Church, the Catholic Church-St.Augustine)
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To: swarthyguy; James C. Bennett

Pakistanis are basically delusional. They now try to insist that they are not Indian at all but the descendents of Arabs who came to India — the Arabs of course laugh at this and at them. They also, quite contradictorily try to say that they are “pure” Aryans, while Indians are descendents of Dravidians (and completely forgetting that Dravidians ARE Caucasians). Pakis are brain-dead idiots — the disease causing the vacuum between their ears is islam.


40 posted on 10/05/2010 12:28:27 AM PDT by Cronos (This Church is holy, the one Church, the true Church, the Catholic Church-St.Augustine)
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To: swarthyguy; James C. Bennett

The crazy pakis also forget that their land was as you point out, once Greco-Bactrian, Indo-Greek and mostly Buddhist before the Moselm slime came and forcibly converted or killed many.


41 posted on 10/05/2010 12:29:33 AM PDT by Cronos (This Church is holy, the one Church, the true Church, the Catholic Church-St.Augustine)
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To: Spike Knotts
Anthropological science/studies today exists primarily to find any theory to discredit whites and western civilization from any claim of being first or best etc except at crimes of humanity and racism...we are of course masters of that while everyone else was living bucolic green lives in Eden

the only whites who get a pass on this are oddly...the Indians...curry, not Creek

i watched that rehashed who came to America first on NatGeo and they were about ready to do a circle jerk over Polynesians in Chile or even Baja or all those hilarious claims about Chinese junks from some 1700s map that was “copied”....they swear

and it made them cry to even admit the only proved (so far) pre Columbus was Erikson....sort of a footnote

i actually went on some sites about that topic...being curious by nature...sites all teeming with anti-white bigotry....they dismissed Clovis-Solutrean theories as white supremacy yet were ready to endorse Polynesian chicken bones and sweet taters as gospel..yo

i know some of yall here are really all over this stuff...blam, civ, cronos(still here?) but today..damn...how do ya weed thru all the crap

i’ll stick with my 1958 Britannica for now thanks..

42 posted on 10/05/2010 12:43:56 AM PDT by wardaddy (the redress over anything minority is a cancer in our country...stage 4)
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To: Cronos

nice...someone who actually reads and left bias at the thread door


43 posted on 10/05/2010 12:46:52 AM PDT by wardaddy (the redress over anything minority is a cancer in our country...stage 4)
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To: wardaddy; Spike Knotts
well, firstly, to claim any "race" as best or worst is stupid in my opinion. Genes take you so far, but individuals count -- the Battle of Isandlwana when the Zulus armed with spears defeated the Brits armed with rifles is a case of sub-saharan africans having superior tactics for example.

Anyway, there is no "white" civilisation or "white" race -- there is the race of Caucasians and the sub-grouping of Indo-Europeans/Aryans. There is no over-arching "white" civilisation -- the Italics, Celts, Iranis, Slavs, Indics, Germanics, etc. have been separate civilisations for millenia.

It's a fact that the Sumerians were trading with Egyptians, Bahrianis and Indus valley civilisations. The Sumerians were God-knows which race, though I'm inclined to believe blam's link about them being related to Dravidians as were the people in the Indus valley (a Caucasian civilisation). The Egyptians in the Old Kingdom were definitely a mixture of Berber with Ethiopic-Semitic blood, later kingdoms having Sudanese blood. The Chinese of course, had their own race. The sub-saharan africans -- the ground was too inappropriate for civilisation to spring up, ditto for Amazonia.
44 posted on 10/05/2010 1:55:36 AM PDT by Cronos (This Church is holy, the one Church, the true Church, the Catholic Church-St.Augustine)
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To: wardaddy; Spike Knotts

The Clovis-Solutrean hypothesis could have happened — but then again, those peoples were not Indo-Europeans but the predecessor (or “original” Europeans). I don’t agree with anyone dismissing it off-hand


45 posted on 10/05/2010 1:57:14 AM PDT by Cronos (This Church is holy, the one Church, the true Church, the Catholic Church-St.Augustine)
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To: Cronos
first you say this:

well, firstly, to claim any "race" as best or worst is stupid in my opinion

then you say this:

The Chinese of course, had their own race

so Cronos, are u stupid ...your own words...

you just exemplified on this very thread why I take any modern anthropology talk with a grain of salt.

First you dismiss the concept of race.

The you proceed to explain how Caucasians were a myriad spanning from Celts to the Sub-Continent and so forth as though that is news and that Egyptians were sorta negroid...that is disputed except in the brief Nubian rule.

And then you claim the Chinese are their own race and explain away SubSaharan negroid race's poor civilizations development as just so much topography...how convenient...ditto tropical Amerinidians.

You have an agenda here and it ain't objective science. Your explanations are for one thing just as I claimed in my first post which you dismissed.

There is no doubt in my mind as exemplified by your post that many in this field whether as scientists or observers are in it to prove precisely what I stated in my first post. Dilute Caucasian history and promote alternatives to pump up other accomplishments to civilization or to excuse why some lagged.

This sort of redress basically permeates everything in the culture and is just as dishonest as some old whites are superior thinking textbook would have been.

Those who say race does not matter or is nonexistent are being dishonest with themselves...it matters very much to them and your post to the contrary of your purported intent does just that.

There are plenty of reasons some races have a higher mean civilizational development than others and it's instructive to study that....I wish folks actually did that.

I will give you last word since this argument can be an easy Never Ending Story and unprovable

46 posted on 10/05/2010 8:51:00 AM PDT by wardaddy (the redress over anything minority is a cancer in our country...stage 4)
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To: TexasRepublic

Sure, but it is ironic and quite the coincidence that on two continents, thousands of miles apart, the same symbol, albeit simple, as you say sprang up.

But simplicity works, witness the cross in Christianity.

And in Islam, the sword!


47 posted on 10/05/2010 11:45:40 AM PDT by swarthyguy (KIDS! Deficit, Debt,Taxes!Pfft Lookit the bright side of our legacy -Ummrika is almost SmokFrei!)
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To: wardaddy
well, yes, I am stupid :)

however, not for the reason that you put forth --> well, firstly, to claim any "race" as best or worst is stupid in my opinion and The Chinese of course, had their own race are non-sequitors. I point out that the Chinese are part of the Mongoloid Race, distinct from the Caucasian cultures of the Sumerians (most likely), Harappans, Hittites, Minoans and Egyptians (with Ethiopic elements). At no point do I state that Chinese/Mongoloids are best or worst, neither do I do that for the Caucasians

I dismiss the concept of "white race" because there is no such thing --> the Caucasians include Nordics as well as swarthy Italians and darker Iranis, indians and Semites.

Races like ARyanic etc are a fact, but race based on color is false.

I don't state that Egyptians were sorta Negroid, but tht they were Ethiopic -- quite different. The "Africans" are at least 3 different races: Bantu, Pygmies, Bushmen and Ethiopics. The latter have always been in touch with W. Asia and Europe (to a lesser extent). Old Kingdom Egyptians were definitely Berber partly and yet browner, hence an Ethiopic admixture as is apparent in their depictions of themselves. They were not Bantu (west AFrican or as you say Negroid).

Race does not matter in judging individuals -- in judging where a culture goes it does not matter either --> case in point Germanics were barbarians to Italics but look at them now (of course you can say that they are both the same race).

What do you mean by There are plenty of reasons some races have a higher mean civilizational development than others and it's instructive to study that....I wish folks actually did that. --> which are the "races" you define? Caucasian, Mongoloid, Negroid, Ethiopic, Bushmen. And, please could you define to a better extent that statement?
48 posted on 10/05/2010 2:52:42 PM PDT by Cronos (This Church is holy, the one Church, the true Church, the Catholic Church-St.Augustine)
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To: SunkenCiv

Cool thread bump.


49 posted on 10/05/2010 4:23:32 PM PDT by ForGod'sSake (You have just two choices: SUBMIT or RESIST with everything you've got!)
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To: SunkenCiv
So they are about or so really old languages /branches. Amazing stuff


50 posted on 10/06/2010 12:04:29 PM PDT by mainsail that ('Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes')
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