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Native Americans arrived to find natives already there, fossil poo shows
The Register ^ | 13th July 2012 11:23 GMT | Lewis Page

Posted on 07/14/2012 9:58:45 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach

Ancient darts also found in possible prehistoric pub

The ancient people who have long been thought to be the first humans to colonise North America were actually johnny-come-latelies, according to scientists who have comprehesively analysed the ancient fossilised poo of their predecessor Americans.

The new revelations come to us courtesy of Copenhagen university, where some of the investigating boffins are based. The scientists say that their results demonstrate conclusively their somewhat controversial thesis: that the "Clovis" culture dating from around 13,000 years ago - which has long been thought to be the earliest human society in the Americas - was actually preceded by human habitation at the Paisley caves in Oregon.

"When we published the first DNA results from the Paisley Caves four years ago it caused an outcry," explains Dr Paula Campos, one of the prehistoric poo experts.

"Many archaeologists felt that our results must be wrong. They considered it an established fact that Clovis were the first Americans. People would come up with any number of alternative explanations to our data in order to repudiate our interpretation. Today we demonstrate that our conclusions were right."

The so-called "Clovis First" theory had until 2008 been accepted as unquestioned truth among archaeologists, who considered that the Clovis people - so called from 13,000 year old archaeological finds near the village of Clovis in New Mexico - were the true native Americans. When the still more ancient 14,000-year-old excrement was found at the Paisley caves, it was pointed out by disgruntled boffins that no stone tools or other evidence of the type seen at Clovis had been found, and that the DNA poo evidence could have been erroneous.

Dr Dennis Jenkins of Copenhagen uni was having none of that, however, and he continued to poke about in the caves. Now he and his team are back, this time packing stone artifacts including "Western stemmed" stone projectiles and new, more comprehensive DNA dating.

According to a Copenhagen uni statement:

The new study refutes every one of the critics’ arguments and uses overwhelming archaeological, stratigraphic, DNA and radiocarbon evidence to conclusively state that humans — and ones totally unrelated to Clovis peoples — were present at Paisley Caves over a millennium before Clovis.

"During our excavations in the Paisley Caves we’ve found a completely different type of dart points," enthuses Jenkins.

"These new points are of a completely different construction from those found in the Clovis culture. As our radiocarbon dating shows, the new finds are as old, or possibly older than the Clovis finds, this proves that the Clovis culture cannot have been the 'Mother technology' for all other technologies in America. Our results show, that America was colonized by multiple cultures at the same time. And some perhaps even earlier than Clovis."

"Humans were present in North America at least one thousand years before Clovis and these earlier peoples probably had no technological or genetic similarity to the iconic Clovis Culture," adds the prof's colleague Thomas Stafford. "The Clovis First debate has ended. The theory is now dead and buried."

So there. ®


TOPICS: Chit/Chat; History; Science
KEYWORDS: clovis; clovisfirst; coprolite; coprolites; godsgravesglyphs; history; oregon; paisleycaves; preclovis

1 posted on 07/14/2012 9:58:53 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: SunkenCiv

fyi


2 posted on 07/14/2012 9:59:49 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (The Global Warming Hoax was a Criminal Act....where is Al Gore?)
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To: All; NormsRevenge; tubebender; Marine_Uncle; TigersEye; justa-hairyape; blam; Fred Nerks
*********************************EXCERPT***************************************

"Humans were present in North America at least one thousand years before Clovis and these earlier peoples probably had no technological or genetic similarity to the iconic Clovis Culture," adds the prof's colleague Thomas Stafford. "The Clovis First debate has ended. The theory is now dead and buried."


3 posted on 07/14/2012 10:07:35 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (The Global Warming Hoax was a Criminal Act....where is Al Gore?)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

Can reparations to Paisley-Americans be far behind?


4 posted on 07/14/2012 10:09:51 AM PDT by jessduntno ("Newt Gingrich was part of the Reagan Revolution's Murderers' Row." - Jeffrey Lord, Reagan Admin.)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

“The theory is now dead and buried.”

Contrary facts have a way of doing that. Even to “settled science”.


5 posted on 07/14/2012 10:13:13 AM PDT by USFRIENDINVICTORIA
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

"Look, Tonto. I always knew you were full of sh*t."

6 posted on 07/14/2012 10:14:21 AM PDT by frankenMonkey (will do graphics for food...)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
“...Dr Paula Campos, one of the prehistoric poo experts...”

It's a dirty job but some body’s gotta do it.

7 posted on 07/14/2012 10:17:03 AM PDT by shove_it (just undo it)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

With that declaration, a colleague, pronounces the matter is closed. DOES ANYONE SEE A RED FLAG HERE? I suggest that we keep looking at this evidence. I would like to keep the debate open. We have the time to get it right.


8 posted on 07/14/2012 10:19:29 AM PDT by BatGuano (You don't think I'd go into combat with loose change in my pocket, do ya?)
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To: jessduntno
I suspect there's a very good reason Paisley Man died out...


9 posted on 07/14/2012 10:20:23 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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Whoever got here first I'm sure was an ancester of Elizabeth Warren.

And they should return the fossil poo to her for a proper burial.

10 posted on 07/14/2012 10:23:47 AM PDT by Blado (When the government controls your healthcare it owns your body and you are a slave.)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Everybody knows that the original people came in “waves” of time. So, nothing astounding to find out that when one group migrated, that there were others that came before. The only question would be, which wave proves to be the oldest. Would not ALL of them be called Native Americans whether they came across the land bridge, down the coast by boat or of Polynesian descent across and up from South America.
11 posted on 07/14/2012 10:24:19 AM PDT by fish hawk (Religion: Man's attempt to gain salvation or the approbation of God by his own works)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
What a ridiculous headline.

Everyone born in America is a native American—American Indians were here before Columbus but there is no evidence ANY of them were in America before others...

...there are no scientifically empirically proven original humans any where on earth so the term “Native American” as popularly used is a politically motivated mendacity.

12 posted on 07/14/2012 10:26:03 AM PDT by Happy Rain
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To: Happy Rain
To this day Rome and Madrid are in dispute about who has claims on the United States. At some point we will be living under one of them.

Which would you prefer?

13 posted on 07/14/2012 10:30:26 AM PDT by tsowellfan (http://www.cafenetamerica.com/)
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To: Blado
lol!

Seems about right!

14 posted on 07/14/2012 10:40:45 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (The Global Warming Hoax was a Criminal Act....where is Al Gore?)
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To: All
Related thread:

Mexican footprints cause scientific stir

****************************************EXCERPT**********************************

Posted on Thu 18 Aug 2005 09:21:43 PDT by gnarledmaw

AP LONDON - British scientists claimed on Tuesday to have unearthed 40,000-year-old human footprints in central Mexico, challenging previous studies that put the arrival of the first humans in the Americas at about 13,500 years ago.

15 posted on 07/14/2012 10:44:51 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (The Global Warming Hoax was a Criminal Act....where is Al Gore?)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Is there any DNA evidence that the Clovis points were actually made by Paleo-Indians (ancestors of the people living in North America in 1492)?

I've always inclined to the theory that they were made by Paleo-Merovingians.

16 posted on 07/14/2012 10:44:52 AM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: Verginius Rufus
Clovis points....would they have DNA?
17 posted on 07/14/2012 10:47:38 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (The Global Warming Hoax was a Criminal Act....where is Al Gore?)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
None of this should be a "surprise". The "experts" are often surprised that they find an older civilization under the civilization where they are presently digging.

Well...surprise....the deeper they dig, the more they will find.

Humans are humans since they became humans, whenever that was. There have always been engineering types, geek types, inventors and builders...that's what humans do.

There also have always been deadbeats, of evolutionary name:

Democrapipithicus.

They developed early and have remained unchanged.

18 posted on 07/14/2012 10:52:35 AM PDT by B.O. Plenty (Elections have consequences....)
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To: All
Just dropping this here:

Paleo-Merovingians

19 posted on 07/14/2012 10:56:33 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (The Global Warming Hoax was a Criminal Act....where is Al Gore?)
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To: Verginius Rufus

“I’ve always inclined to the theory that they were made by Paleo-Merovingians”

Wasn’t one of their famous leaders somebody named “Frank”?


20 posted on 07/14/2012 11:01:09 AM PDT by Stormdog (A rifle transforms one from subject to Citizen)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
I've been linking this article since 2003:

Vintage Skulls

The oldest human remains found in the Americas were recently "discovered" in the storeroom of Mexico's National Museum of Anthropology. Found in central Mexico in 1959, the five skulls were radiocarbon dated by a team of researchers from the United Kingdom and Mexico and found to be 13,000 years old. They pre-date the Clovis culture by a couple thousand years, adding to the growing evidence against the Clovis-first model for the first peopling of the Americas.

Of additional significance is the shape of the skulls, which are described as long and narrow, very unlike those of modern Native Americans.

21 posted on 07/14/2012 11:04:46 AM PDT by blam
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To: tsowellfan
In 1481 Pope Alexander VI decreed that all lands 100 leagues West and South of the Azores belong to Spain.

Many things have happened since then but it appears the spawn of Spain are fulfilling the papal bull to the detriment of the English experiment called the US Constitution.

There are always exceptions but on average,which colonies have become the most successful countries—the Spanish or the British? I would prefer to to live under what works but that was and is still a revolutionary thought.

22 posted on 07/14/2012 11:05:08 AM PDT by Happy Rain ("Shakespeare and Bach have felt EVERYTHING!"--E.Power Biggs)
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To: reaganaut

Lamanite ping


23 posted on 07/14/2012 11:10:18 AM PDT by T Minus Four
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
There's a similar sitiation in Europe. The below mentioned 'folks' aren't supposed to be this advanced or in Europe 1.8 million years ago

Strangers In A New Land

The most recent discoveries at this site are even more advanced than expected.

24 posted on 07/14/2012 11:12:55 AM PDT by blam
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

Poo don’t lie.


25 posted on 07/14/2012 11:23:11 AM PDT by Cyman
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To: blam
I don't now, nor do I think that in the future I will believe in the out of Africa theory. To many Inconsistencies.
26 posted on 07/14/2012 11:33:05 AM PDT by Little Bill
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

So where does that leave “Wrong-Way” Heyerdahl?


27 posted on 07/14/2012 11:35:37 AM PDT by x
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
From the title:

Native Americans arrived ...

Huh? If they arrived from wherever then they quite obviously were not native.

28 posted on 07/14/2012 11:41:53 AM PDT by JohnG45
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To: Happy Rain
Everyone born in America is a native American

Thank you. Too bad someone didn't whack that Berkeley professor who came up with the concept of the "hyphenated American."
My parents were born here. My grandparents were born here. I was born here. I am indigenous to this land. I am a native American.
29 posted on 07/14/2012 11:52:17 AM PDT by gimme1ibertee (If you want to kick a tiger in the ass, you better have a plan for dealing with his teeth.)
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To: Happy Rain
Pope Alexander VI was elected in 1492. He happened to be Spanish himself (Borgia <- Borja). He divided the non-Christian world between Spain and Portugal in 1493 after Columbus returned from his first voyage (which the Spanish and Portuguese made an adjustment to his line in 1494).

Granted that the countries started by settlers from the British Isles have tended to turn out better than the former Spanish colonies, there are a number of reasons--not all going back to the differences between Spain and England in 1492 (since England itself had a lot of developing to do before absolutism was defeated there). The former British colonies in Africa and Asia, where the English were a small minority, and often left afterwards, have not done as well as the countries created by settlers--the US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. The former Spanish colonies generally had a minority from Spain ruling over a larger indigenous and impoverished population who had little chance at economic betterment.

30 posted on 07/14/2012 11:52:53 AM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

I would not expect DNA residue on the actual points, but maybe some have been found in conjunction with human remains.


31 posted on 07/14/2012 11:54:38 AM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: onedoug

Ping


32 posted on 07/14/2012 12:08:41 PM PDT by windcliff
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To: Blado
Whoever got here first I'm sure was an ancester of Elizabeth Warren.

Was thinking the same thing!!

And they should return the fossil poo to her for a proper burial.

Along with her BS!!

33 posted on 07/14/2012 12:11:01 PM PDT by ExCTCitizen (If we stay home in November '12, don't blame 0 for tearing up the CONSTITUTION!!)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

Interesting. Seems like I had read similar suggestions a number of years back. I don’t track this stuff as a hobby.


34 posted on 07/14/2012 12:11:13 PM PDT by Marine_Uncle (Honor must be earned.)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

Yah... This is not news. The author needs to upgrade his sources. Even when I was studying this sort of thing at grad school in anthropology in the mid-80s, there were several sites dated much older than Clovis: Meadowcroft Rock Shelter in Pennsylvania, at least 16,000 years BP, perhaps 19,000 years BP; Monte Verde in Chile (way south in Chile!), perhaps 33,000 years BP, at least 15,000 years BP). Clovis is not the first culture of humans in the new world, just one of the easiest of the old ones to identify. This “established fact that Clovis were the first Americans” crap is just that: crap. (Think global warming...)


35 posted on 07/14/2012 1:15:57 PM PDT by LaRueLaDue
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To: fish hawk

“Would not ALL of them be called Native Americans whether they came across the land bridge, down the coast by boat or of Polynesian descent across and up from South America.”

Or, if standard theories persist, someone might say no, those we call “Native Americans”, from any source, were really “Asians” in “origin” and they, not even “Native Asians” as, in the entire human race there are only “Native Africans”, the ancestors of us all - if standard archaeological theories were to persist. O.K. don’t shoot the messenger!!!

If standard evolution and archaeological theories were to persist, then in the human race there can only be “Native Africans”, as every other group of humans, anywhere else, were immigrants (not ‘native’) to other lands, from Africa, or immigrants - to additional lands - of those first immigrants; leaving only Africa as a source to be called “first humans here”. O.K. again; don’t kill the messenger!!!

I am, tongue and cheek, trying to hit on any idea of “first” peoples; as the story of humanity IS a story of migration, settlement, death, starvation & extinction, migration, settlement, conquest and merging cultures, migration, settlement, migration settlement - over and over. The ancestors of everyone’s ancestors came from somewhere else, if we go back far enough.


36 posted on 07/14/2012 1:20:28 PM PDT by Wuli
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To: Wuli

LOL, no argument from me on that. I seldom use the term “native American” as you and million of others born here fit that term. I call myself American Indian and even that is because a misguided explorer thought he was somewhere else in the world. I’m even wondering if “Aboriginal American” is correct.


37 posted on 07/14/2012 2:07:43 PM PDT by fish hawk (Religion: Man's attempt to gain salvation or the approbation of God by his own works)
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To: fish hawk

First After The Last Ice Age Western Hemisphere Dude.


38 posted on 07/14/2012 2:11:02 PM PDT by going hot (Happiness is a momma deuce)
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To: fish hawk

I prefer paleo-American.


39 posted on 07/14/2012 2:19:09 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Yeah, I like that. by the way Blam, I read all your threads on new discoveries in Archeology.
40 posted on 07/14/2012 2:24:50 PM PDT by fish hawk (Religion: Man's attempt to gain salvation or the approbation of God by his own works)
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To: Joe 6-pack
I suspect there's a very good reason Paisley Man died out...
At least one of 'em is still around.


41 posted on 07/14/2012 2:37:14 PM PDT by Bratch
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To: fish hawk
Thanks.

I don't post much on that subject anymore.

42 posted on 07/14/2012 2:39:25 PM PDT by blam
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To: Bratch

Brad Paisley is what you call a C&W GLBT.


43 posted on 07/14/2012 2:42:36 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Cyman
I beg to differ. Case in point: Obama.
44 posted on 07/14/2012 3:24:03 PM PDT by Gabrial (The nightmare will continue as long as the nightmare is in the White House)
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To: windcliff

Well, coprolites....


45 posted on 07/14/2012 10:12:42 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: windcliff

Well, coprolites....


46 posted on 07/14/2012 10:12:42 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: tsowellfan

you mean lisbon and madrid...


47 posted on 07/14/2012 11:25:35 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

 GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother & Ernest_at_the_Beach
Thanks Ernest. Just adding to the catalog, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.


48 posted on 07/15/2012 2:06:44 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: fish hawk

LOL with you, and thanks.


49 posted on 07/16/2012 1:06:07 PM PDT by Wuli
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