Posted on 05/23/2004 11:54:30 PM PDT by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle
Calling the approval of same-sex marriage in Massachusetts "the straw that broke the camel's back," a group of Christian activists is in the beginning stages of an effort to have one state secede from the United States to become its own sovereign nation.
"Our Christian republic has declined into a pagan democracy," says Cory Burnell, president of ChristianExodus.org, a non-profit corporation based in Tyler, Texas. "There are some issues people just can't take anymore, and [same-sex marriage] might finally wake up the complacent Christians."
Burnell is leading the charge for a peaceful secession of one state from the union, and after originally considering Alabama, Mississippi and South Carolina due to their relatively small populations, coastal access, and the Christian nature of the electorate, Burnell says South Carolina has been selected as the target location.
The plan initially calls for at least 12,000 Christians willing to be active in political campaigns to move to the Palmetto State.
"We're not an invading force, we're reinforcements," Burnell tells WorldNetDaily, saying it would be a waste to move to liberal-minded states such as Massachusetts, New York or California where conservative votes would be diluted.
According to the ChristianExodus website, which is slated for a major relaunch next month, "Christians have actively tried to return our entire land to its moral foundation for more than 20 years. We can categorically say that absolutely nothing has been achieved. If you disagree, consider this:
* Abortion continues against the wishes of many states * Children may not pray in our schools * The Bible is not welcome in schools except under strict federal guidelines
* The 10 Commandments remain banned from public display * Sodomy is now legal and celebrated as 'diversity' rather than perversion
* Preaching Christianity will soon be outlawed as 'hate speech' * Gay marriage will be foisted upon us in the very near future
"All these atrocities continue in spite of the fact that we now have the 'right' people in places of power. Indeed, the occupant of the White House is a professing Christian. The U.S. attorney general is believed to be a devout Christian. 'Conservatives' control both Houses of Congress, and Republican presidents appointed seven of the nine Supreme Court justices."
The idea of moving thousands of people to affect the voting in one state is not new. As WorldNetDaily has previously reported, the Free State Project has goals of restoring certain personal liberties and limited government – but without seceding from the union. Last year, a group of 4,500 libertarians decided New Hampshire would be the best state.
S. Carolina state flag
Burnell, a math teacher and cell-phone dealer, stresses he's not looking for bloody battles that took place in the American Revolution and the Civil War, but is rather seeking a "political divorce."
"It's got to be different today," he says. "It has to be peaceful, brokered."
But he admits if the federal government decides to use military force to stop the effort, "Then it can't happen."
Already a dozen people are actively working on the project, and some 1,500 by e-mails of support have been received.
If all goes according to plan, Burnell is hoping to have a constitutional convention by 2014, with a president of the new nation – still to be known as South Carolina – elected in 2016, which is also a presidential election year in the U.S.
He says the nation would be founded on Christian principles, and the people writing its constitution would have to hash out details to safeguard it as a Christian republic.
For now, Burnell prefers to shy away from specifics on the precise laws governing the country.
"Independence first, details later," he says.
Please keep in mind that the Christian secession movement is not suggesting a violent secession, but rather a peaceful and orderly one.
May I suggest Texas? Among other things, it is shaped more or less like a cross. (Good omen.)
The one thing that gives the U.S. in its present form its staying power is the financial system.
The entire country is addicted to the fiat money system foisted unconstitutionally upon it in the early 20th century. As long as we all have mortgages, we will be slaves and effectively co-conspirators.
When you buy a house with a mortgage and expect it to rise in value, you are giving the green light to the Fed to continue printing fake fiat money, devaluing the savings of all dollar-owners and contributing to our continuing reliance on the government in Washington.
then that makes two of us.......
Huh??? No, there are no two of us making the fallacy of the false disjunct. The false disjunct is the false assumption that we have either "a political platform" or "a secessionist agenda." When it is acutally both/and (or even a third alternative).
I haven't given up on this country. It's going to take more than a "trancendental argument" to turn me away.
You might want to become familiar with the transcendental argument and review why I introduced it before criticizing it.
especially since you don't really make too much sense. You are soon (if not already) to be relegated to the looney bin - like the Black Nationalists - who also wanted their own country.
Classic case of projection used in place of sound reason. You apparently are not familiar with the false disjunct fallacy or the transcendental argument so you try to draw attention away from sound reasoning by employing yet another fallacy: ad hominem attack.
If your position is reasonably then argue by using reason, not by engaging in fallacies and name calling. It seems sophomoric.
Even you may see the futility of your quest when you attempt to come up with a Constitution for this shangri-la, which I am assuming will be in the not too distant future. I look forward to reading it, and the debate within your movement.
Same arguments and assumptions used against the American Revolution. Answer me this, what was King George the third accused of doing (in the enumerated complaints outlined in the Declaration if Independence) that is worse than what our rogue tryants in black robes (Judges) are doing in America today?
Or, to put it another way, would you have supported the American Revolution as a reasonable response to the British Crown or was it a "looney" response? If you think it was reasonable, WHY was it more reasonable or justified than a peaceful secession movement today?
Friend:
here is my last shot with you, bulleted for simplicity.
* Your argument, not mine, is the fallacy of the false disjunct - there is either "your own country" or "an immoral America" I reject your fallacy completely
* You are correct, I have not spent the time reviewing your trancendental argument for secession- my point being, I am an American and a patriot. Nothing CAN trancend that.
* It is not an ad hominem attack to point out that your position, your group IS being relegated to the looney bin, when it is.
* Your American Revolution argument - the peaceful vs. armed resistance has a definite proof, that is, America (armed resistance, throwing off the tyrant) vs. Canada (obtaining sovereignty through lack of interest on the part of Britain).
I assure you that you will not get what you want peacefully - you will be openly mocked (by people like me) and if you abandon the peaceful approach (because it will fail), you will be crushed utterly if you try the armed approach.
These are reasoned assessments, but you can take them as merely my opinion if you wish.
Your faux intellectualizing is also quite amusing, and strengthens my argument for mocking your movement. You fancy yourselves latter day patriots, when you are merely run-of-the-mill hate America secessionists. (again, this is not an ad-hominem comparison - look it up)
You CAN put your views to productive use through the political process. I wish you would because I might even join you in that. But the political process is the only reasonable option open to you - just like all americans.
But you think you are special. You're not. Your present path is folly, but far be it from me to try to convince you with words, you clearly reject any argument against your "movement".
With due respect, that is not the fallacy of a false disjunct. It happens to be a true disjunct, unfortunately. Yours was, in fact, the fallacy of the false disjunct.
You are correct, I have not spent the time reviewing your trancendental argument for secession- my point being, I am an American and a patriot. Nothing CAN trancend that.
Please do so before commmenting on it. The transcendental argument is not one that was designed for secession, but rather one that demonstrates the futility of knowledge claims, morals, laws, etc., apart from God.
It is not an ad hominem attack to point out that your position, your group IS being relegated to the looney bin, when it is.
Yes, that is exactly what an ad hominen argument is. It's dismissing people to the "looney bin" because you cannot win an argument by reason.
Your American Revolution argument - the peaceful vs. armed resistance has a definite proof, that is, America (armed resistance, throwing off the tyrant) vs. Canada (obtaining sovereignty through lack of interest on the part of Britain).
Huh?!? That has nothing to do with the question I asked.
I ask you again: Why --on what basis-- was the American revolution justified? Why would not a secession movement be justified using the same reasons often given for the justification of the American revolution? Please answer this specifically. This question simply must be answered logically point-by-point if your position is to be advanced with any merit.
I assure you that you will not get what you want peacefully - you will be openly mocked (by people like me)
With logical fallacies such as the false disjunct and ad hominem, no doubt.
I strongly recommend that you please get a copy of a book titled INTRODUCTION TO LOGIC by Irving Copi. Please study that book (and/or take a logic course) before further discourse on these forums. Again, that's INTRODUCTION TO LOGIC by Irving Copi. Learn it. Live it. Love it.
and if you abandon the peaceful approach (because it will fail), you will be crushed utterly if you try the armed approach.
Unwarranted assumption.
These are reasoned assessments...
Not hardly, but I'm sincerely waiting.
You fancy yourselves latter day patriots, when you are merely run-of-the-mill hate America secessionists. (again, this is not an ad-hominem comparison - look it up)
Yep, Ad Hominem. I love America, I hate what the marxist-atheist ("secularists") and Rhinos have done to her.
You CAN put your views to productive use through the political process.
There's that fallacy of the false disjunct again. You falsely assume that secession is not part of the political process.
But you think you are special. You're not.
In logic this is known as the "straw man" fallacy (get that textbook by Copi).
Listen, if you can persuade me point-by-point using reason then I will listen. But truth is not determined by majority vote or by logical fallacies such as ad hominem attacks.
Surely, someone who holds your position is willing to engage in a point-by-point logical discussion aimed at pursuasion.
Your argument, not mine, is the fallacy of the false disjunct - there is either "your own country" or "an immoral America"
With due respect, that is not the fallacy of a false disjunct. It happens to be a true disjunct, unfortunately. Yours was, in fact, the fallacy of the false disjunct.
You are correct, I have not spent the time reviewing your trancendental argument for secession- my point being, I am an American and a patriot. Nothing CAN trancend that.
Please do so before commmenting on it. The transcendental argument is not one that was designed for secession, but rather one that demonstrates the futility of knowledge claims, morals, laws, etc., apart from God.
It is not an ad hominem attack to point out that your position, your group IS being relegated to the looney bin, when it is.
Yes, that is exactly what an ad hominen argument is. It's dismissing people to the "looney bin" because you cannot win an argument by reason.
Your American Revolution argument - the peaceful vs. armed resistance has a definite proof, that is, America (armed resistance, throwing off the tyrant) vs. Canada (obtaining sovereignty through lack of interest on the part of Britain).
Huh?!? That has nothing to do with the question I asked.
I ask you again: Why --on what basis-- was the American revolution justified? Why would not a secession movement be justified using the same reasons often given for the justification of the American revolution? Please answer this specifically. This question simply must be answered logically point-by-point if your position is to be advanced with any merit.
I assure you that you will not get what you want peacefully - you will be openly mocked (by people like me)
With logical fallacies such as the false disjunct and ad hominem, no doubt.
I strongly recommend that you please get a copy of a book titled INTRODUCTION TO LOGIC by Irving Copi. Please study that book (and/or take a logic course) before further discourse on these forums. Again, that's INTRODUCTION TO LOGIC by Irving Copi. Learn it. Live it. Love it.
and if you abandon the peaceful approach (because it will fail), you will be crushed utterly if you try the armed approach.
Unwarranted assumption.
These are reasoned assessments...
Not hardly, but I'm sincerely waiting.
You fancy yourselves latter day patriots, when you are merely run-of-the-mill hate America secessionists. (again, this is not an ad-hominem comparison - look it up)
Yep, Ad Hominem. I love America, I hate what the marxist-atheist ("secularists") and Rhinos have done to her.
You CAN put your views to productive use through the political process.
There's that fallacy of the false disjunct again. You falsely assume that secession is not part of the political process.
But you think you are special. You're not.
In logic this is known as the "straw man" fallacy (get that textbook by Copi).
Listen, if you can persuade me point-by-point using reason then I will listen. But truth is not determined by majority vote or by logical fallacies such as ad hominem attacks.
Surely, someone who holds your position is willing to engage in a point-by-point logical discussion aimed at pursuasion.
"Surely, someone who holds your position is willing to engage in a point-by-point logical discussion aimed at pursuasion."
You are a poor deluded man. Your position is devoid of logic, so there is no purpose in arguing deluded points.
Your movement will fail. You will likely do damage to those that try to accomplish your goals within the framework of the Constitution.
You are simply wrong about America, but no argument will dissuade you.
I oppose you and everything you are doing, fortunately your movement does not deserve to be taken seriously, and I probably give it too much credit by even engaging in a dialog with you.
Ad hominem. Just the facts ma'am.
Your position is devoid of logic.
Projection. If what you wrote was true then you should be able to demonstrate how it is true using the laws of logic without the fallacies (ad hominem, etc.)...that is...if you understand the laws of logic.
Goodness, even I can think of reasons that you have not provided as to why secession might not be necessary or optional yet. Do I really need to help you make your argument???
Since you've yet to answer my question regarding why the American revolution was justified, I must infer that you simply have not thought your position through and therefore you're not prepared.
Your movement will fail. You will likely do damage to those that try to accomplish your goals within the framework of the Constitution.
Expressing you preference is not an adequate answer.
You are simply wrong about America, but no argument will dissuade you.
No argument has been offered by you...beyond an ad hominem fallacy along with other fallacies. I'm still waiting, Einstein.
I oppose you and everything you are doing...
Duh.
fortunately your movement does not deserve to be taken seriously...
Then why have you taken it so seriously as to spend so much time emoting about it without providing one sound reason against it?
...I probably give it too much credit by even engaging in a dialog with you.
I guess I should spare you. I probably should not have entered into an intellectual battle with an unarmed foe.
Being an American is more than an excercise in debating technicality and terminology.
You're like a Monty Python skit......screaming "Ad Hominem", ad nauseum.
It's not Ad hominem - you are under the delusion that you are going to get your own country. That you think you can is a position devoid of logic.
I don't care what your reasons for secession are, though I understand them as you have stated them. I will not debate them, though I could in the abstract. They are simply wrong minded, and un-American.
I will be happy to discuss the American Revolution with you in a separate thread. You are not about the American Revolution, and to attempt to link your opinion about the American Revolution as some justification or roadmap for the lunacy you are espousing makes you a <***Ad Hominem Deleted***>.
It is not merely my preference that your movement fail, I would be prepared to personally act to contribute to it's failure if that were ever necessary, which, of course, it won't be.
Intellectual discussion? no, this never has been in danger of being an intellectual discussion. The topic isn't serious enough to warrant serious intellectual horsepower....and I haven't seen too much intellect out of you either, junior.
....and YES! I "emote" about being an American, when I encounter fellow citizens attempting to devalue MY country. Patriotism, my friend, involves a willingess to "emote" from time-to-time, a willingess to serve, and a willingess to fight for what you believe within the context of the Constitution.
That you so easily give up on America (and let me interrupt your retort.....America hasn't given up on anybody, not even you) is amazing to me.
I still feel a surge of pride when I sing the national anthem, I feel proud when I say the pledge of allegiance at a function with my kids. Refocus your efforts at your own patriotism instead of this grandstanding secession nonsense. Sure, it won't bring as much attention to you, but it's not about you (or is it?) - it's about your country, and your fellow Americans.
fight for change, not secession. It doesn't take an Einstein to figure that out.
Cheers!
You've yet to demonstrate how. I'm still waiting.
I don't care what your reasons for secession are, though I understand them as you have stated them. I will not debate them, though I could in the abstract. They are simply wrong minded, and un-American.
In other words, you know I'm wrong, but you just can't explain how.
I will be happy to discuss the American Revolution with you in a separate thread. You are not about the American Revolution, and to attempt to link your opinion about the American Revolution as some justification or roadmap for the lunacy you are espousing makes you a <***Ad Hominem Deleted***>.
To the contrary, if you cannot provide a basis as to why the revolution was justified but a secession would not be justified, then it's all sound and fury signifying nothing. You are simple stating a preference for one over the other.
I would be prepared to personally act to contribute to it's failure if that were ever necessary
So would a lot of other atheistic communists.
Intellectual discussion? no, this never has been in danger of being an intellectual discussion.
You've seen to that.
The topic isn't serious enough to warrant serious intellectual horsepower....and I haven't seen too much intellect out of you either, junior.
In other words, "I just feel you're wrong, but I could never demonstrate by reason that you're wrong."
Patriotism, my friend, involves a willingess to "emote" from time-to-time
It also involves a willingness for you to think at least for once.
That you so easily give up on America (and let me interrupt your retort...
"So easily"??? What have you been injecting into your arm?!? 40 million murdered unborn children, the assault on religious liberty, gay marriages, and you still think it's all no big deal.
Like I said, I should not engage in intellectual battle with an unarmed foe. And you wouldn't know anything about the necessary armaments. But PLEASE for goodness sake learn something about the rules of proper reason. You're making yourself look stupid.
"You've yet to demonstrate how. I'm still waiting."
What's for ME to demonstrate? I still don't know how you are going to get your own country, as you haven't explained it.....merely stating that a "slow, process" and setting some arbitrary advanced date. demonstrate to me how this is workable......let's just take it from a financial point of view......how are you going to finance your portion of the National Debt?
"It also involves a willingness for you to think at least for once."
I've thought and decided......seems you are the one still thinking about your patriotism, and can't decide....
"To the contrary, if you cannot provide a basis as to why the revolution was justified but a secession would not be justified, then it's all sound and fury signifying nothing. You are simple stating a preference for one over the other. "
To what point would arguing whether the AR was justified be about? Even if it wasn't justified, it happened. That honorable men like George Washington thought it necessary is good enough for me.....Or do you think you know better than him?
"So would a lot of other atheistic communists."
Now THIS is a carefully crafted "Ad Hominem".....congratulations, you finally found a real one.
"You've seen to that. "
LOL....
"So easily"??? What have you been injecting into your arm?!? 40 million murdered unborn children, the assault on religious liberty, gay marriages, and you still think it's all no big deal. "
Again, juvenile use of the Ad Hominem, can't you be just a little more clever?......Ok, so your point is this: Since we are all Americans we all support and/or engage in this behavior? What have you done to change this that you do not like about your country? Why can't it be changed within the political system. How are you going to stop this within your own hypothetical country?
"I should not engage in intellectual battle with an unarmed foe"
.....and this is the best you've got? Let's just say you fall short of "shock and awe" in a battle of intellectual armaments.......
"You're making yourself look stupid."
Well, it wouldn't be the first time, or probably the last. Are you so sure that you come off as a reasoned, informed debater, patriot and statesman?
I haven't seen anything from you to indicate you shouldn't be treated as the secessionist traitor that you are. If you were not so ineffective in communicating your points, someone might even consider a visit from the FBI just to check things out....
The UN is against US sovereignty. It could support secessionist movements in our country as a means of trying to divide the nation...
The other dirty little secret that liberals don't want you to know is that Christianity in the US produces the most productive work-force on the planet. You destroy Christian Protestant culture and you lose your economy...as the French found out in its destruction of the Huguenot culture. They took their manufacturing and engineering prowess to England...and France ceased to be the leading world power!
If Christians were to simply "drop out" of American life and associate as much as possible within their own communities and businesses and coalesce into say a 5 to 10 state block...(and simply ignore certain supreme court edicts)...the economic consequences would be earth-quaking to the nation. Christians...Catholic and Protestant alike, are the economic power of this nation....Let us put aside some of our denominational differences and cleanse this land?
You've yet to offer one reason why the American revolution would be justified, yet secession would not be. Please do this before proceeding with any other comments.
Also, learn some rules of logic before commenting on the rules of logic.
You're posts are very dense. No reasons given for your position, just pure emoting. This is what neurotic women on serious meds do, but it's hardly becoming of an FR debate.
Better yet, taking time off to honor the Gipper is the best way to spend time today. (And pleae, no predictable lines about the Gipper and the secession idea. Just spend time honoring the greatest President of the 20 century).
"I'm still waiting for a response from you as to why you think a secession movement would be unjustified. For someone who doesn't think this secession idea is worth your response, you've sure been doing a lot of writing to me about it. "
I thought it was obvious to someone with as formidable an intellect as yourself. We have a precendent for not allowing secession. So even if it were justified, it's not to be allowed.
"You've yet to offer one reason why the American revolution would be justified, yet secession would not be. Please do this before proceeding with any other comments. "
If you are suggesting revolution, that is one thing, if you are suggesting secession it's another. Which is it? They are profoundly different. Is your cause not worth revolution - I mean, don't you believe in what you stand for? Are you prepared to incite such a revolution? Therein lies the pragmatic answer.
"Also, learn some rules of logic before commenting on the rules of logic."
Some of us aren't as smart as you.
"You're posts are very dense. No reasons given for your position, just pure emoting. This is what neurotic women on serious meds do, but it's hardly becoming of an FR debate. "
You deserve every flame you get on this statement!
"Better yet, taking time off to honor the Gipper is the best way to spend time today. (And pleae, no predictable lines about the Gipper and the secession idea. Just spend time honoring the greatest President of the 20 century)."
We agree on something!
My comment was meant light-heartedly but I like your argument and I'll think on it some more. Do you have evidence?
The evidence is what happened to France's economy after the Huguenots took flight. The huguenots invented the milled soap processess, did wonders with textiles and machinery and implements. The fled France to England(what ones weren't killed) and took that prowess and engineering light with them.
Many of the inventions and innovations such as the steam engine were from descendents of the Huguenots. Political reforms and even the Birth of our nation can be traced to the diaspora of the Huguenots from France. The French then as now always had a way of cutting off their noses to spite their faces. Many of our leading forefathers were of huguenot descent.
These Protestants had a primitive(in some eyes) faith in Jesus Christ and in his grace. The weight of sin was lifted from them...they saw the world with different eyes, new innovations came to them, new thoughts and dreams birthed of the freedom of the Holy Spirit took hold of them. They were a virile people of faith who gave up their arms in the name of conciliation to the the Catholic queen of france at the time ...who then turned around and attacked them. Had it not been for their arms...the Catholic monarchy would have destroyed them out of bigotry long ago. The Huguenots were't disloyal to the monarchy but they defied Catholicism. They were pursuaded to lay down their arms as many were pursuaded that to live by means of arms was not the Christian thing to do... this was basically the reason why the Huguenots let down their guard.
It was in memory of the Huguenots amongst other reasons that inspired the writing of the second Amendment!
We have a precendent for not allowing secession. So even if it were justified, it's not to be allowed.
Should the American Revolution have been allowed? If yes, then why that revolution and not secession? You still have not answered the question. You apparently have not thought this through very carefully.
If you are suggesting revolution, that is one thing, if you are suggesting secession it's another. Which is it? They are profoundly different.
Wrong. In the American Revolution the colonies DID secede from the British crown. Nice try, but you need to think this issue through more carefully before responding. Again, why was the Revolution justified?
I will only respond with the same question to any more of your posts since it is the heart of the issue and you refuse to think it through and at least offer a difference.
I've answered your questions. That you don't think I did is interesting. Besides being an accomplished citizen, and patriot, I'd have thought your well-honed debating skills would have led you to the conclusion that your questions had already been fully answered - and that we disagree.
I don't think you should waste any more time with me. I hope they sentence you to community service, say, cleaning latrines at Ft. Sumter or something - maybe then, on your breaks, you'd gain some appreciation for the country that God gave us.
No, you never once answered any questions germane to the subject. You just emoted. Again, please answer the questions or cease posting comments to the thread.
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