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Was Jesus a libertarian?
FountainofTruth ^ | May 19, 2001 | Doug Newman

Posted on 07/20/2004 1:23:28 AM PDT by Remember_Salamis

Was Jesus a libertarian?

Presented to the Convention of the Colorado Libertarian Party, May 19, 2001.

One autumn afternoon in the 1960s, the Green Bay Packers were having a pretty pathetic practice session. Finally, their coach, the legendary Vince Lombardi, had had all that he could take. He blew his whistle, stopping practice, and held up a football. He said, "Guys. We are going to go back to the basics. THIS...IS...A...FOOTBALL."

Upon hearing this, one of the players raised his hand and said, "Coach, could you go a little slower?"

Today, as we ask whether Jesus was a libertarian, we are going to get back to the basics, too. This is a Bible. And this pamphlet contains our two key Founding documents, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. We are going to examine what they say, rather than what it is culturally fashionable to say that they say.

Before we go any further, let me just state that I am not going to be discussing abortion. The issue is so emotionally charged that if someone asks just the right question, it will derail everything.

What is this about?

If Jesus was a libertarian, he was not one of the capital "L" variety. He no more had a partisan political affiliation than he had a favorite baseball team. In fact, he had no political agenda. He was not a left-winger or a right-winger. He never put a gun at anyone's head and said "Follow Me!" Nor did he ever instruct his followers to initiate force to implement a Christian political agenda.

Christians have a book called the Bible, which they say is the inerrant word of God. They say that it deals with all aspects of life. In addition to being many other things, it is the greatest pro-freedom book in history. And yet this message is far too frequently overlooked in the contemporary church. Yes, God does ordain civil government. But this is just one government among many that he ordains.

However, it is not fashionable to discuss these things in church. For several decades, now, most churches have hidden behind their 501(c)(3) tax exemption, which gives churches a tax exemption if they curtail their involvement in politics. I will go into this more deeply in just a few minutes, but too many churches have fallen prey to the damnable heresy which says that Christians should not involve themselves with politics.

As a sad result, too many Christians have ignored the what Bible says about government, and cast their lot with the modern superstate. A few years ago, Ralph Reed, director of the Christian Coalition, rejoiced about how Christians finally had "a place at the table" in Washington, D.C. Thanks, Ralph, for trivializing Christianity. Thanks for lowering Christians to the status of a mere interest group, to the same level as the teamsters and the asparagus growers.

If more Christians seriously examined what the Bible says about politics, and if ministers devoted more energy to teaching on the subject, you would soon find millions of Christians at the vanguard of the freedom fight.

Jesus Left and Right

Again, Jesus was not a left-winger or a right-winger. Christians are frequently told that economic issues do not matter. If so, why did God us the Eighth and Tenth Commandments (Exodus 20:15, 17), which state that "Thou Shalt Not Steal" and "Thou Shalt Not Covet"? Both commandments are repeated in Romans 13:9, that favorite chapter of big government groupies.

Right-wing Christians never tire of telling us that government force is necessary to instill virtue. Let us turn to Colossians 2:20-23, which states: "Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you still submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Christianity cannot be forced. In Revelation 3:20, Jesus says, "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." Jesus enters our lives by invitation, not by kicking in doors like some DEA or INS agent.

How are we to finance the church? Not by force. II Corinthians 9:7 says that, "Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." This is why President Bush's force-based, uh, Faith-Based Initiative is such a horrible idea. Not only will it poison churches by making them dependent on public money -- it is doubtful that Bill Clinton or Al Gore could come up with a more harmful idea -- it also violates Scripture.

Both the left-wing and right-wing worldviews deny the reality of sin. Jeremiah 17:9 says that "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure." This condition can no more be remedied by politics than it can be remedied by pills.

The Bible never promises utopia, much less that we can vote, tax, spend, censor, regulate, litigate, legislate, confiscate, or incarcerate our way into utopia.

Jesus cares profoundly about how we live.

However, Jesus does care profoundly about how we live. In Matthew 5:13-16, he instructs us to be light in a world of darkness and salt in a world of decay. In Matthew 7:16-20, he instructs us that we will be recognized by the fruit we bear.

In the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20), he says, "All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." God, not the state, is the ultimate source of authority. This Scripture does not outline a specific, detailed political program.

Jesus is not a social engineer. He has no scheme for a Great Society, a New Frontier, a Great Leap Forward, a Five-Year Plan, or a Thousand-Year Reich. However, he does offer us a new deal, which is vastly superior to that offered by FDR.

This new deal involves a changed life as a result of a personal relationship with God. Hebrews 4:12-13 says, "For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account." The state can tell us what to do and what not to do, but it cannot convict us to the very core of our being.

Christians do need to be involved in politics.

Yet politics do matter, and those Christians who are called need to be active in the political arena. It is indeed a damnable heresy to suggest otherwise. It is fashionable to say that politics is a secular pursuit for secular people. I would invite anyone who believes this to consider the following two quotes.

Rudy Rummel is a retired professor at the University of Hawaii with whom I trade e-mails. He has a page devoted to the business of genocide. He states that, "During the twentieth century, 170 million men, women, and children have been shot, beaten, tortured, knifed, burned, starved, frozen, crushed, or worked to death, buried alive, drowned, hung, bombed or killed in any other of the myriad ways governments have inflicted death on unarmed, helpless citizens and foreigners.

You may well have heard the next quote. It comes from Martin Niemoller, a Lutheran minister in Germany in the thirties and forties, who spent several years in Hitler's prison camps. He stated: "In Germany they came first for the Communists, but I did not speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I did not speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."

Who will speak for all the apolitical Christians when persecutors kick in their doors at three in the morning, put AK-47s to their heads, haul them off to the nearest train station, and load them on a box car bound for the forced labor camps they have built for Christians on the north slope of Alaska? America is not immune from such an eventuality.

The atrocities perpetrated by the Feds at Waco were a trial balloon floated before a brainwashed nation. One of the saddest aspects of life after Waco is that so many mainstream Christians were either silent about Waco or, worse yet, thought the whole thing laughable. It's like, dude, Koresh was a kook and so was anyone who would follow him.

But being a kook is not a crime. Neither is having weird religious beliefs. Yet so many Christians have become so fuzzy in their thinking that they unquestioningly swallowed the government's line on this tragedy. When they came for the Davidians, they did not speak up because they were not Davidians.

What then should be the Christian approach to politics? Well, let us look to the Bible.

Just what does the Bible say about...?

What does the Bible say about welfare? Go to I Timothy 5:8, which says "If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." In Genesis 2:15, God instructs Adam to work the Garden of Eden, not just prance around naked. The whole welfare state is based on theft and envy, which violate the Eighth and Tenth Commandments (Exodus 20:15, 17). Matthew 6:1-4 instruct us "not to do (our) acts of righteousness before men to be seen by them," and not to broadcast our righteousness, as it does not impress God.

What does the Bible say about taxes? Matthew 22:21 does tell us to, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's." But it also tells us to "Give to God what is God's." Caesar has his divinely ordained place, yet it God has His, too. Again, II Corinthians 9:7 says, "Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." God wants a voluntary contribution of ten percent and Caesar has a gun at our heads for 50 percent.

What does the Bible say about gun control? Let us turn to Genesis 4. Can anyone tell me how Cain killed Abel? Do you give up? Well, it does not matter how Cain killed Abel. The point is that Cain was evil and he killed his brother. The Bible never tells us to blame a tool, a plant, or any other inanimate object for the evil we perpetrate. Also, Proverbs 25:26 says that, "Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked."

Perhaps the biggest battleground in the ongoing church-state controversy is in the schools. What does God say about education? Ephesians 6:4 says, "Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord." God places the responsibility for child rearing squarely on the parents, and never suggests that this duty should be transferred to the state. The right of parents to educate their children as they see fit is guaranteed by the Ninth Amendment to our Constitution.

If Christians paid attention to this, and stopped acting as if there were something sacred about state education, these inane controversies over condoms versus family values, school prayer, and creation versus evolution, would quickly go way.

In a free society, i.e. the kind of society in which God wants us to live, we would have separation of school and state. Parents could choose to home school their children, or to send them to the Resurrection Baptist School, the Immaculate Heart of Mary Catholic School, the Joseph Smith Mormon School, or the Allah Akbar Muslim School.

They would not even need to send their kids to a religious school. They could send them to the Whitney Houston School (where the children are the future) or the Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young School (where they teach your children well). The point is that decisions on how to educate children would be between parents and God. No one would have to seek the approval of the state. God gives parents the right to make these decisions.

God is the Author of our rights.

In fact, America was founded on the premise that God is the Author of all our rights.

Gary Fallon lives in Phoenix and is a very strong Christian and a great Libertarian. He makes the point that, if Jesus turned water into wine today (John 2:1-11), he would be arrested for doing so without a liquor license or a park permit, and probably would be arrested for serving alcohol to people under the age of 21.

We like to giggle and guffaw about towns in Connecticut with age-old ordinances forbidding Methodists from riding unicycles down Main Street on Thursday. However, the issue of how the modern state militates against our God-given rights is much more serious.

Consider the impact of oppressive taxation. How much easier would it be to provide for our families (I Timothy 5:8), if the current tax burden were lifted? Proverbs 6:6 asks us to observe how the ant stores up provisions for the future. How much easier would this be in the absence of our current tax burden? Proverbs 13:22 states that, "A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children", thus condemning estate and inheritance taxes. Bearing one another's burdens by giving to charity and insuring ourselves properly (Galatians 6:2) would be a world easier were we not raped on taxes.

Acts 2:42-45 and 4:32-35 describe First Century communities of believers who share all their possessions and give liberally to anyone who has need. Although socialists love these Scriptures, people in these communities were influenced not by a progressive income tax, but by the Holy Spirit.

The gun control movement will disarm Christians along with everyone else. The Second Amendment is the strongest barrier standing between Christians and those who would persecute them.

Isaiah 10:2 inveighs against "those who make unjust laws" and "those who issue oppressive decrees." What have we come to when a simple act of humanitarianism, such as Linda Chavez' (former nominee for Labor secretary) taking a poor immigrant into her home, can be against the law? Consider all the people who die each year because FDA and DEA regulations deny them access to drugs which are helping people in many other countries around the world?

Yes, we are to "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's" (Matthew 22:21). Yet the same verse also tells us to give "to God what is God's." This scripture can be applied to many issues other than taxation. Our limitless belief in the competence of the state not only denies us the ability to exercise freely our God-given rights, it never gets us what we say we want.

Jesus had something to say about this, too. In Matthew 6:31-33, he says: "So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."

More on the Founding

Again, God is the author of our rights. Indeed, this is the premise of the American Founding. Thomas Jefferson was no conventional Christian. However, in his politics, he was far more Christian than any well-known contemporary Christian leader. Consider the language of the Declaration of Independence. It speaks of the "station to which the Laws of Nature and Nature's God entitles them." It states that we "are endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights." It "(appeals) to the "Supreme Judge of the world." The signers had "a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence."

The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution promise us a free society, not a perfect one. The Bible does not promise a perfect society either. In Matthew 10:22, Jesus says "All men will hate you because of me." If anyone was such a good person that he had a right to live in an ideal society where all his worldly needs were met, certainly it was Jesus. Consider his lot in life.

The Founders were very fearful of a strong central authority. In the First Book of Samuel, the elders of Israel asked God to "appoint a king to lead us, such as all the other nations have" (I Samuel 8:5). God took this as a rejection of Him as king. God let them have their king, but warned of the tyranny such an earthly king would impart. (I Samuel 8:4-20)

Isaiah 33:22 states, "For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king." There you have it: three divinely ordained branches of government.

Andrew Sandlin is a very scholarly libertarian Christian who serves at the Chalcedon Institute in California. In a very fine essay on Christian libertarianism, Sandlin points out that the state is but one form of government among many. Others include the self, the family, the church, the school, businesses and private associations. In Sandlin's words, "The governmental area of the state must be strictly limited lest all government be destroyed by the tyranny." (1)

In the words of James Madison, "We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions...upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

The Founders' delineation of "what is Caesar's" may be found in the 18 clauses and 431 words of Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution. If it is not spelled out here the federal government cannot proactively do it.

In Exodus 3:14, God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." God is the ultimate. The be all and end all. This might be considered the supremacy clause of the Bible. The Constitution has its supremacy clause in Article VI.

Where hear frequently how America is a republic, not a democracy. The Founders rightly equated democracy with mob rule. Jesus was crucified and Barabbas was released (Matthew 27:15-26) because Pilate gave in to the whims of the mob.

Many of you have heard the saying that, in a democracy, two wolves and a sheep take a majority vote on what's for supper. In a republic, on the other hand, the wolves are forbidden on voting on what's for supper, and the sheep are well armed.

Democracy is not a biblical concept. Proverbs 3:5-6 says, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight." Only in a free society can Christians hear God's call for their lives, and walk forward in accordance with this call, without having to seek the permission of the secular majority.

When they came for the Amish...

Michelle Malkin is a nationally syndicated columnist whose work appears frequently in the Denver Rocky Mountain News. Whether or not she is a libertarian, I do not know. However, she writes a lot of great stuff. Last December she told the story of how, in 1956, an Amish farmer fought back when the feds raided his farm and seized some of his horses. As a result, the 1965 Medicare bill would carry an exemption for the Old Order Amish, as well as anyone else who objected on religious grounds, from paying payroll taxes for old-age benefits.

When they came for the Amish, the Amish said something.

Why cannot the mainstream Christian leadership commit itself once again to Biblical government and thus help put an end to social insurance schemes?

Romans 13

Perhaps it is because they have so grossly misinterpreted Romans 13 as an injunction never to resist the actions of your government. Romans 13 does not say a lot of the things that it is fashionable to say that it says.

While God ordains civil government, he does not bless its every act. (God created sex, but does not bless every act of sex.)

Romans 13 does not say that the state is the only divinely ordained form of government.

Romans 13 does not say that outlawing evil will eradicate it.

While Romans 13 contains stern warnings for those who rebel. However, it does not say that rebellion is never justified. The American Revolution is a case in point. Many of the Founders paid with their lives for signing the Declaration of Independence. I do not know about you, but I am glad they did what they did.

Titus 3:1 and I Peter 2:13-14 say similar things. Yet neither tells us to be unquestioning little flunkies of our government.

Acts 4:18-19 and Acts 5:28-29 say that when God's law says one thing and man's laws say another, follow God's law.

The bigger government gets, the more it lies, the more it steals, and the more it kills. The bigger government gets, the more godless it gets. At some point, all rogue governments attempt to write God out of the picture altogether.

Rulers are subject to God's judgment, too.

Rulers are subject to God's judgment, too. From the beginning, as a helpless baby, Jesus made the kings of the earth very uneasy (Matthew 2).

Jesus' Kingdom is not of this earth (John 18:36). His followers have their true citizenship elsewhere (Philippians 3:20). Jesus was put to death by people who "(had) no King but Caesar" (John 19:15).

Joseph Stalin was perhaps history's most prolific mass murderer. The blood of some 70 to 80 million people was on his hands. Hitler was not even in Stalin's league as a mass murderer. When Stalin was on his deathbed, he feebly shook his fist at heaven in one last act of defiance. He had devoted his life to writing God out of the picture. Well, in 1953, God wrote Stalin out of the picture.

Was Stalin an atheist? I do not think so. An atheist would not see God as a threat. Stalin, Mao, or anyone else who institutionalizes atheism does so because they see God as a threat, and their subjects' loyalty to God as a threat.

The beast of the Book of Revelation will be a political leader with the "power to make war against the saints and conquer them" (Revelation 13:5-8).

But Jesus will return to reign in the end (Revelation 19). Psalm 2:9-10 carries the following warning for the kings of this world when Jesus does return. "You will rule them with an iron scepter; you will dash them to pieces like pottery. Therefore, you kings; be wise; be warned you rulers of the earth."

Conclusion: One Solitary Life

Expecting a political savior is not a new phenomenon. It is always tempting to believe that getting the right person or persons in office will make everything right with the world. 2000 years ago, the people of Israel thought the Messiah would ride in on a white horse and spectacularly liberate them from Roman oppression.

But God had other things in mind. He sent a helpless baby who, at least superficially, was the most ordinary of men.

I want to conclude by reading something I wish I had written. It is entitled "One Solitary Life."

"He was the most famous and successful man who has ever lived. His teachings are followed by hundreds of millions of people. He was born in an obscure village, the child of a peasant woman. Until he was 30, he worked in a carpenter shop, and then for three years he was an itinerant preacher. He wrote no books. He held no office. He never owned a home. He was never in a big city. He never traveled 200 miles from the place where he was born. He never did any of the things that usually accompany greatness.

"The authorities condemned his teachings. His friends deserted him. One betrayed him to his enemies for a paltry sum. One denied him. He went through the mockery of a trial. He was nailed upon a cross between two thieves. While he was dying, his executioners gambled for the only piece of clothing he owned on earth: his coat. When he was dead, he was taken down and laid in a borrowed grave.

"Nineteen centuries have come and gone, yet today he is the crowning glory of the human race, the adored leader of hundreds of millions of the earth's inhabitants. All the armies that ever marched and all the navies that ever set sail and all the parliaments that ever sat and all the rulers that ever reigned -- put together -- have not affected the life of man upon this earth so profoundly as that ONE SOLITARY LIFE."

Thank you and God bless you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(1) As I was posting this to my web page, I received an e-mail from Andrew Sandlin. It said that the American Revolution, rather than being an act of rebellion, was a defensive struggle. I e-mailed him back saying he was right, and that the Southern cause in the War Between the States was, similarly, a defensive struggle. (See Proverbs 25:26) (Back)

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Special thanks to Michelle Bethke. When putting together the program for the Colorado Libertarian Convention, she spelled "libertarian" in the title to this speech, with a small "l". This was important.


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1 posted on 07/20/2004 1:23:29 AM PDT by Remember_Salamis
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To: All

"Was Jesus a libertarian?"

No.
Jesus was always right.


2 posted on 07/20/2004 1:30:55 AM PDT by Cindy
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To: All

No discussion of abortion?

Jesus did not want ANYONE to hurt children.
He addresses that specifically in the Bible.


3 posted on 07/20/2004 1:32:29 AM PDT by Cindy
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To: Remember_Salamis

Schaffer for the Senate.


4 posted on 07/20/2004 1:44:14 AM PDT by familyop (Essayons.)
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To: Cindy

I seem to recall the harshest of judgement as well.


5 posted on 07/20/2004 1:45:23 AM PDT by xp38
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To: Cindy

"No discussion of abortion?

Jesus did not want ANYONE to hurt children.
He addresses that specifically in the Bible."

The authoer took out abortion because he was adressing a libertarian audience and didn't want to lose any of them before making his points.


6 posted on 07/20/2004 1:49:52 AM PDT by Remember_Salamis (Freedom is Not Free)
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To: Cindy
"No discussion of abortion?"

That's what she said, apparently. You see, the speech presented "libertarian with a small _l_," which is a recent trend in Libertarian writing targeted to readerships outside their own. The speaker was at the "Convention of the Colorado Libertarian Party." Here's a link to the Libertarian Platform. The abortion issue is there. A close look at the religion issue in the platform is also a good idea (see "separation of church and State," "parents" and "children").

http://www.lp.org/issues/platform/preamble.html#toc

And "heresy" (posted column above)...? The NIV is heresy.

  The NIV, in Deuteronomy 23:17, says, "No Israelite man or woman
is to become a shrine prostitute."

  The KJV says in Deuteronomy 23:17, "There shall be no whore of
the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel."
"Sodomite" is a word that I haven't found in the NIV.

  A feminist lesbian named Virginia Mollenkott helped to write the
NIV.  Here's some info on Mollenkott.

The New International Version - 1978
http://www.revelationwebsite.co.uk/index1/kjv/mouth4.htm#niv

  Let's read something else Ms. Mollenkott had to say.

     {2}Virginia Mollenkott wrote, in a letter to Christian
     Century (March 7, 1984, p. 252), "I am beginning to
     wonder whether indeed Christianity is patriarchal to its
     very core. If so, count me out.  Some of us may be forced
     to leave Christianity in order to participate in Jesus'
     discipleship of equals."

  I saw that on the following book page.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/cbmw/rbmw/chapter26.html
"Charity, Clarity, and Hope: The Controversy and the Cause of
Christ"
John Piper and Wayne Grudem

"Two New Organizations: Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood
Christians for Biblical Equality"

(Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood
A Response to Evangelical Feminism
Wayne Grudem and John Piper)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  And that's the older NIV, by the way--not the new "gender
inclusive" version.

  Evangelical feminists have some new bible verses to use as
weapons against the family.  Take the verse, "I commend to you
our sister Phoebe, a servant[ 16:1 Or deaconess] of the church
in Cenchrea" (Romans 16:1, NIV or New International Version).

  So "Phoebe" was given unprecented authority, according to
the NIV revisionists.  Here's some info from study on that
issue.  And remember that one prevalent feminist tactic is to
make statements with little or no existing documentation to
either prove or disprove them.

  Now look at the verse in the KJV (King James Version).  "I
commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the
church which is at Cenchrea:" (Romans 16:1, KJV).

  ...some more in-depth study of "Phoebe."

The Biblical Vision Regarding Women's Ordination
By the Rev'd Dr Rodney A. Whitacre
http://www.episcopalian.org/cclec/paper-whitacre.htm

  ...and for information on the word, "diakonos,"

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1249&version=kjv
7 posted on 07/20/2004 2:04:57 AM PDT by familyop (Essayons.)
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To: Remember_Salamis

bump


8 posted on 07/20/2004 2:08:50 AM PDT by ActionNewsBill ("In times of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act")
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To: Remember_Salamis
Libertarians say Jesus was Libertarian

Democrats say Jesus was Liberal

Republicans say Jesus was Conservative

That's how it's always been. Each political party picks and chooses what they agree with and run with it. Mystery solved.

9 posted on 07/20/2004 2:15:59 AM PDT by BigSkyFreeper (While Bush plays "rope a dope", Kerry/Edwards play "grope a dope".)
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To: Cindy
"Was Jesus a libertarian?"

His Goal was to be crucified!!!


10 posted on 07/20/2004 2:40:33 AM PDT by Common Tator
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To: Remember_Salamis

Jesus wasn't a illegal drug taking anarchist, there is no relation.

No way Jesus was a libertarian, and if a libertarian ever was in contact with Christ, they would chastise Him for pushing His ethics upon their immorality and vices.


11 posted on 07/20/2004 3:14:39 AM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: BigSkyFreeper

Not me, I'm a conservative and I say Christ was a Savior!


12 posted on 07/20/2004 3:15:39 AM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: Remember_Salamis
Talk about selective and HIGHLY flawed use of scripture.

Read in context, Rom. 13 makes it CLEAR that Christians are to be odedient to government except when it directly contradicts God's commands; but CHRISTIANS are not under the "Ten Commandments" or the Old Covenant. They are under the New Covenent, as established by Jesus and outlined by Paul, Peter, et. al. Paul makes it VERY clear that "The state does not bear the sword in vain [i.e., for nothing] but to execute wrath.." In other words, government is to administer justice so that individuals DO NOT engage in vendettas---as occurs in much of the Middle East.

No, God's best plan was NOT for the people to have a king: it was "worse" in the eyes of the Libertarians---to have a THEOCRACY. Can you really imagine these people supporting having, say, Jerry Falwell or John Paul II actually governing society?

Jesus Himself explicitly sanctioned paying taxes. He did not establish what was a "reasonable" level, although personally I think one can infer that if God only requires 10%, that should be the state's limit, too.

Timothy was referring to people getting welfare from the CHURCH, not the state. (No, I don't support government welfare, but this is still a total distortion of what Tim. was talking about). He was saying that if the CHURCH was going to support you, you had to work, too.

Finally, as most everyone will point out, to not address abortion and drug use is so convenient as to be funny. Jesus would slam modern-day Libertarians for elevating their own freedom and liberty above obedience to God.

Finally, it is interesting that Jesus so KEPT the civil laws that the Jewish leaders had to distort what He said and threaten Pilate with civil rebellion OF THEIR OWN in order to get him to crucify Jesus.

13 posted on 07/20/2004 5:10:31 AM PDT by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news.)
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To: BigSkyFreeper

Yah, but there's a problem. One of them may be right, because there IS a right and wrong. Just because "everyone has an opinion" doesn't mean there is no truth.


14 posted on 07/20/2004 5:12:04 AM PDT by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news.)
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To: Remember_Salamis
Christ is Order. Whole Bible can be summarized in one sentenance i.e. God Created Order. He also gave free will to every being which off course is a sin as this free will have a capacity to not to follow GOD's order.

As we observe in today world we see sodomy which is against the order.It will soon happen on altar. We see terrorism which is against the order. It is happening at our home and work place..... and so on
15 posted on 07/20/2004 5:17:52 AM PDT by agneyen
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To: Remember_Salamis
Wow. An entire rhetorical/religious house of cards built on a foundation of jello.
16 posted on 07/20/2004 6:13:25 AM PDT by atomicpossum (I give up! Entropy, you win!)
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To: Cindy

No discussion of abortion?



Many libertarians oppose abortion as they oppose infanticide: because it is the unjustified initiation of force against another human being. To these libertarians, the liberty of the mother does not outweigh the life of the baby.


17 posted on 07/20/2004 8:13:38 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Your Friendly Freeper Patent Attorney)
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To: Remember_Salamis
Jesus told several people "Go and sin no more"

I would think that automatically disqualifies Him as a Libertarian.

Besides, I object to the question because Jesus Christ was totally unique among humans. The Son of God defies our puny little categories, does He not ??

18 posted on 07/20/2004 8:18:17 AM PDT by BSunday (YES AMERICA CAN !)
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To: BSunday
Jesus told several people "Go and sin no more". I would think that automatically disqualifies Him as a Libertarian.

Actually, he would have to have said "Go and sin no more or I'll have you arrested." to offend libertarians.

19 posted on 07/20/2004 8:29:14 AM PDT by freeeee ("Owning" property in the US just means you have one less landlord.)
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To: Remember_Salamis
Was Jesus a libertarian?

No. Jesus said he came to fulfill the law not to do away with it. He also said that people should obey the priests of the law and "do everything" they are told because they sit in the seat of Moses even though those priests are not living as they should be living.
20 posted on 07/20/2004 8:31:17 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: aruanan
No. Jesus said he came to fulfill the law not to do away with it. He also said that people should obey the priests of the law

I must have missed the part where he asked Caesar to send some Centurians to do his bidding.

21 posted on 07/20/2004 8:33:18 AM PDT by freeeee ("Owning" property in the US just means you have one less landlord.)
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Bump for later reading


22 posted on 07/20/2004 8:38:44 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Psalm 73)
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bump


23 posted on 07/20/2004 8:51:23 AM PDT by nobdysfool (Faith in Christ is the evidence of God's choosing, not the cause of it.)
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To: freeeee
I must have missed the part where he asked Caesar to send some Centurians to do his bidding.

You want to come a little closer than Six Degrees from Kevin on this?
24 posted on 07/20/2004 8:51:59 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: aruanan

I think "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's"----specifically referring to taxation---qualifies. Jesus not only paid His own taxes, but paid the taxes for all his 12 disciples for 3 1/2 years.


25 posted on 07/20/2004 9:17:24 AM PDT by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news.)
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To: Remember_Salamis

The author makes some really good points about how Christians should be involved in politics to assert a good influence on the rest of the world.

But most Christians are sitting around waiting to get raptured in the 2nd Coming, so they aren't about to get their hands dirty in something so awful as politics.


26 posted on 07/20/2004 9:17:50 AM PDT by webstersII
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian

in case you are interested.


27 posted on 07/20/2004 9:32:13 AM PDT by thePilgrim
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To: A CA Guy

Did you know that Ronald Reagan called libertarianism the heart and soul of conservatism?


28 posted on 07/20/2004 9:36:55 AM PDT by jmc813 (Help save a life - www.marrow.org)
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To: Cindy

Most Libertarians are pro-life and oppose taxpayer funding of abortions.


29 posted on 07/20/2004 9:38:59 AM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist
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To: Remember_Salamis
Better essay: God is not an American
30 posted on 07/20/2004 10:36:33 AM PDT by Dumb_Ox (Ares does not spare the good, but the bad.)
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To: BigSkyFreeper
"Libertarians say Jesus was Libertarian Democrats say Jesus was Liberal Republicans say Jesus was Conservative"

Since Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, we only have to look at the theocracy of the ancient Israelites to see what 'party' Jesus would have been a member of.

31 posted on 07/20/2004 10:40:17 AM PDT by MEGoody (Kerry - isn't that a girl's name? (Conan O'Brian))
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To: jmc813

"Did you know that Ronald Reagan called libertarianism the heart and soul of conservatism?"

Hey, don't confuse anyone here with the facts!


32 posted on 07/20/2004 10:40:41 AM PDT by webstersII
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To: MEGoody

"Since Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, we only have to look at the theocracy of the ancient Israelites to see what 'party' Jesus would have been a member of."

Hmm.. . . would that be the ancient Israelites that He called, "whitewashed sepulchres full of dead men's bones"? Or the ones He said "would travel halfway around the world to make one convert, then turn him into twice the child of hell that they already were?"

He railed against the existing "theocratic" structure of the Israelites of that day.


33 posted on 07/20/2004 10:45:04 AM PDT by webstersII
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To: webstersII
"He railed against the existing "theocratic" structure of the Israelites of that day."

Yes, of that day. I'm refering to the theocracy set up when Moses was around.

34 posted on 07/20/2004 11:02:05 AM PDT by MEGoody (Kerry - isn't that a girl's name? (Conan O'Brian))
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To: MEGoody

"Yes, of that day. I'm refering to the theocracy set up when Moses was around."

You like the idea of an Old-Testament theocracy?


35 posted on 07/20/2004 12:00:40 PM PDT by webstersII
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To: webstersII
But most Christians are sitting around waiting to get raptured in the 2nd Coming, so they aren't about to get their hands dirty in something so awful as politics.

If you mean the pre-tribulation rapture, then most Christians don't even believe in that--and before the late 1700s, none of them did.
36 posted on 07/20/2004 12:15:55 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: jmc813

One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.
(That Reagan agreed with)

One who believes in free will.
(Yes, but now when they wanted all their vice and illegal drugs, at that time they left any version of a conservative reservation.)


37 posted on 07/20/2004 12:55:16 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: aruanan

"If you mean the pre-tribulation rapture, then most Christians don't even believe in that--and before the late 1700s, none of them did."

I disagree. I know lots of people who are pre-trib believers. Plus, some of the popular prophecy teachers are pre-trib.


38 posted on 07/20/2004 1:34:59 PM PDT by webstersII
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To: webstersII
"You like the idea of an Old-Testament theocracy?"

I was just pointing out that Jesus would not have been a libertarian. The issue of whether I like it or not wasn't under discussion.

39 posted on 07/20/2004 2:00:12 PM PDT by MEGoody (Kerry - isn't that a girl's name? (Conan O'Brian))
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To: Remember_Salamis

Was Jesus a libertarian?

NO

Jesus was and IS the Lord God himself manifest into flesh by the word of God.

No human on earth would have went through what he did to save all the humans from themselves.

The word politician doesn't occur in the KJV.

The word politics doesn't occur in the KJV.


The word politicle doesn't occur in the KJV.

Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.

1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


Election occurs 6 times in 6 verses


40 posted on 07/20/2004 2:13:28 PM PDT by ATOMIC_PUNK (Most people talk a lot, few are up for the moment. Welcome to Freerepublic.com)
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To: Beelzebubba; Cindy; Remember_Salamis; A CA Guy; atomicpossum
"Many libertarians oppose abortion as they oppose infanticide: because it is the unjustified initiation of force against another human being. To these libertarians, the liberty of the mother does not outweigh the life of the baby."

Official Libertarian Party Platform
http://www.lp.org/issues/platform/preamble.html#toc


Read under "Women's Rights and Abortion."

Libertarians want to legalize abortion on demand, but as with most of their other issues, they smother their desire under lots of lying, slippery speech. And as feminists do, they claim to be many things ("small _l_,:" etc.) in attempts to confuse and deceive.

"Then it will be plain that the first condition for the liberation of the wife is to bring the whole female sex back into public industry, and that this in turn demands the abolition of the monogamous family as the economic unit of society" (Frederick Engels, Origins of the Family, Private Property, and the State).

Mao's Little Red Book on Women
http://www.paulnoll.com/China/Documents/Mao-31-Women.html

Some of Lenin's words on women
http://www.marx.org/archive/lenin/works/1919/nov/06.htm
41 posted on 07/20/2004 3:20:52 PM PDT by familyop (Essayons.)
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To: webstersII
"I disagree. I know lots of people who are pre-trib believers. Plus, some of the popular prophecy teachers are pre-trib."

Yeah, it's feel-good stuff. ...one of many ways to dupe a lot of people into following the government of the Beast, too. IMO, after a few years of study, it appears to me that a lot of Christian sect Jews will suffer for 3 1/2 years, then be avenged.
42 posted on 07/20/2004 3:29:01 PM PDT by familyop (Essayons.)
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To: jmc813
"Did you know that Ronald Reagan called libertarianism the heart and soul of conservatism?"

Oh? And is that why he put O'Connor in as a Supreme?

I don't worship any politician, although I think President Bush is trying to be good. Many Reagan worshippers believe that he was good, but then many of those same worshippers follow Jezebel.
43 posted on 07/20/2004 3:34:58 PM PDT by familyop (Essayons.)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
"Most Libertarians are pro-life and oppose taxpayer funding of abortions."

See post #41.
44 posted on 07/20/2004 3:42:28 PM PDT by familyop (Essayons.)
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To: familyop

Official Libertarian Party Platform
http://www.lp.org/issues/platform/preamble.html#toc

Read under "Women's Rights and Abortion."

Libertarians want to legalize abortion on demand



Well, I was referring to "libertarians", not necessarily the "Libertarian" Party. As I said, many disagree with the party, which wants no government funding or restrictions.

Do you agree with each and every plank of your party's platform? Do you disagree with every plank of the Democrat platform (actually, we both probably do!)


45 posted on 07/20/2004 3:50:05 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Your Friendly Freeper Patent Attorney)
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To: webstersII
"He railed against the existing "theocratic" structure of the Israelites of that day."

He argued with the way the religious lawyers who were puppets of the Romans lied about the Law. He preached the Ten Commandments as the way to permanent life. After being called "good" by someone else, he said that no man is good and that only God is good.

Christianity is a sect of Judaism.

He supported theocracy but disagreed with that of the Romanized lawyers.
46 posted on 07/20/2004 3:57:14 PM PDT by familyop (Essayons.)
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To: Beelzebubba
Do you agree with each and every plank of your party's platform?"

You have me there. The answer is "no," of course. But I will campaign and vote for the Republican Party.

The reason for what I do is that apparently, no great leap or change can be made in politics without terrible consequences and risk of despotic gangs taking over our government. And no great legitimate change can be made, because so many of our own Party members want to continue huge funding for family breaking feminism, etc. So I'll try to help push our opposition back little by little.

But there is one way to make a great change that's relatively quick.

Keep cutting taxes while allowing the opposition to increase funding for family breaking programs. At the same time, build up our military and stop all foreign aggressors, costing the next Democrat Administration even more.

Reagan did it. We should do it more and more effectively.

Eventually, bankrupt the opposition. Close the offices of their bureaucracy. ...scorched earth budget policy. Then start over.

;-)
47 posted on 07/20/2004 4:08:09 PM PDT by familyop (Essayons.)
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To: webstersII
I disagree. I know lots of people who are pre-trib believers. Plus, some of the popular prophecy teachers are pre-trib.

I know lots of people who do also, but most don't and most haven't. Historically, it's a relatively recent development and it's funny how many think that it's taught in scripture. Its principal point of entry into U.S. dispensationalism after Darby and Irving got it from Lacunza (we have the 1827 edition of Lacunza's book Venida del Mesías en gloria y majestad, as translated by Edward Irving here in our library at the University of Chicago) was the Scofield Bible. These guys are going to have a lot to answer for come judgment day.
48 posted on 07/20/2004 4:45:26 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: Remember_Salamis

My theory on the Waco/Ruby Ridge scenarios is this:

Both of these incidents were to test how much a future America would put up with from any police authority.

Yes, in both instances, the targets were law-breakers, but were either of these events handled well? Considering the hand Janet Reno had in this era, those manly hands... ugh.
Sorry.

Anyway, were they handled properly? Did Ruby Ridge have to end the way it did? Was Waco's fiery end preventable?


49 posted on 07/20/2004 5:28:04 PM PDT by The Libertarian Dude (Patrick Henry didn't say "Give me liberty or make me give a urine sample" - Mojo Nixon)
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To: Remember_Salamis

Well Jesus did live at home with his mother until he was 30, so maybe he was a Libertarian.


50 posted on 07/20/2004 5:30:59 PM PDT by NeoCaveman ("If we beat them bad enough, they can't cheat" - Hugh Hewitt)
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