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The Demise of Another Evolutionary Link: Archaeopteryx Falls From Its Perch
Evolution News & Views ^ | October 26, 2009 | Casey Luskin

Posted on 10/27/2009 8:11:33 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts

The Demise of Another Evolutionary Link: Archaeopteryx Falls From Its Perch

A few days ago we saw Ida fall from her overhyped status as an ancestor of humans. Now some scientists are claiming that Archaeopteryx should lose its status as an ancestor of modern birds. Calling Archaeopteryx an “icon of evolution,” the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) borrows a term from Jonathan Wells while reporting that “[t]he feathered creature called archaeopteryx, easily the world's most famous fossil remains, had been considered the first bird since Charles Darwin's day. When researchers put its celebrity bones under the microscope recently, though, they discovered that this icon of evolution might not have been a bird at all.”

According to the new research, inferences about growth rates made from studies of Archaeopteryx’s ancient fossilized bones show it developed much more slowly than modern birds. While the WSJ is reporting these doubts about Archaeopteryx’s ancestral status as if they were something new, those who follow the intelligent design movement know that such skepticism has been around for quite some time. In his 2000 book Icons of Evolution, Jonathan Wells discussed differences between Archaeopteryx and modern birds and the implications for Archaeopteryx's place as an alleged link between dinosaurs and birds:

But there are too many structural differences between Archaeopteryx and modern birds for the latter to be descendants of the former. In 1985, University of Kansas paleontologist Larry Martin wrote: “Archaopteryx is not ancestral of any group of modern birds.” Instead it is “the earliest known member of a totally extinct group of birds." And in 1996 paleontologist Mark Norell, of the American Museum of Natural History in New York, called Archaeopteryx “a very important fossil,” but added that most paleontologists now believe it is not a direct ancestor of modern birds.

(Jonathan Wells, Icons of Evolution, p. 116 (Regnery, 2000).)Archaeopteryx isn’t the only evolutionary icon losing its claim as the ancestor of birds. In recent months we’ve seen paleontologists increasingly arguing that the entire clade of dinosaurs should no longer be considered ancestral to birds. As the WSJ article states:

There are lingering doubts that birds today are descendants of dinosaurs. Researchers at Oregon State University recently argued that the distinctive anatomy that gives birds the lung capacity needed for flight means it is unlikely that birds descended from dinosaurs like archaeopteryx and its kin. Their findings were published in June in the Journal of Morphology.
As paleontologist John Ruben of Oregon State was quoted saying when his article was published:
But old theories die hard, Ruben said, especially when it comes to some of the most distinctive and romanticized animal species in world history.

"Frankly, there's a lot of museum politics involved in this, a lot of careers committed to a particular point of view even if new scientific evidence raises questions," Ruben said. In some museum displays, he said, the birds-descended-from-dinosaurs evolutionary theory has been portrayed as a largely accepted fact, with an asterisk pointing out in small type that "some scientists disagree."

"Our work at OSU used to be pretty much the only asterisk they were talking about," Ruben said. "But now there are more asterisks all the time. That's part of the process of science."

("Discovery Raises New Doubts About Dinosaur-bird Links," ScienceDaily, June 9, 2009.)While "museum politics" seem to dominate now more than ever when it comes to evolution, it's nice to at least see some of those asterisks getting a little attention in a major media outlet like Wall Street Journal.



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; US: Washington
KEYWORDS: antiscienceevos; belongsinreligion; catastrophism; catholic; christian; creation; darwindrones; evangelical; evolution; evoreligionexposed; godsgravesglyphs; intelligentdesign; judaism; notasciencetopic; paleontology; propellerbeanie; protestant; science; templeofdarwin
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To: xcamel

You asked me to find a quote from you and I did - directly from your keyboard.

How is that a strawman? Or are you just changing the subject?

Post hoc ergo proptor hoc has nothing to do with what I stated at all. False cause apply to your own statements, not mine.


61 posted on 10/27/2009 11:33:17 AM PDT by scottdeus12 (Jesus is real, whether you believe in Him or not.)
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To: allmendream

“New species arise not by the genetic changes within an individual; but from the changes and selective pressures”

Now there’s a pile of crap with no scientific support!

Just how are are these oh so carefully defined “changes and selective pressures” passed to the next generation, if not gentically?


62 posted on 10/27/2009 11:33:36 AM PDT by G Larry (DNC is comprised of REGRESSIVES!)
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To: allmendream; Ev Reeman
Monkeys fill an ecological niche, where there is a “demand” for monkeys, nature has provided a “supply”. The “demand” for monkeys up in the trees did not go away just because some monkeys came down from the trees and started living on the ground.

What a bunch of gobbly-gook.

So there was a *demand*? And it came from where?

And what if something hadn't filled it?

And if the niche was *filled* then why did other primates etc that live in trees evolve?

Didn't someone tell them that the *niche* was filled and couldn't take any more species?

Nice personification of nature there. Gives evos something to replace God with.

63 posted on 10/27/2009 11:37:19 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: G Larry
Still avoiding the question.

You said you thought genetic variation within a species happens rapidly. Where do you think this genetic variation COMES FROM?

And OF COURSE genetics is how these changes are passed down (making it obvious that you lacked the capacity to understand my answer if by reading it you thought I was suggesting otherwise), but it is not changes within a single individual, it is new variation within a species (which you say happens quite rapidly) followed by natural selection of that genetic variation causing a difference in reproductive success that leads to some variations being favored over others; light skin over dark skin in Europe, dark skin over light skin in Africa, etc.

64 posted on 10/27/2009 11:37:48 AM PDT by allmendream (Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be RE-distributed?)
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To: allmendream; MGBGUN
Variation within a species happening rapidly = evolution happening rapidly.

Just an assumption. Extrapolating evolution from variation within species is just due to the philosophical leanings of the evos. Assuming the conclusion is not science, it's a cop out.

65 posted on 10/27/2009 11:40:53 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
So your suggestion is that for a new species to arise all of the ancestral species must die off?

That is a bunch of gobbly gook.

The “demand” for monkeys, is that OBVIOUSLY, monkeys do quite well living up in trees. If a single species of monkeys moved down from the trees and started adapting to life on the ground; does that mean that suddenly the monkeys living up the tree lost their means of livelihood?

The first airplane designers were bicycle makers. Did the advent of airplane manufacturing eliminate the need for bicycles?

66 posted on 10/27/2009 11:40:57 AM PDT by allmendream (Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be RE-distributed?)
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To: chuckles
I don't disagree with a word you wrote. I also noted you didn't write a single further word on Carl Baugh's extraordinary Limestone Cowboy boot claim which he himself as discredited - at least via no longer acknowledging its existence on his website or in his museum.

Creationist, evolutionist, whomever... The simple ability to say, "Thanks, perhaps I was incorrect" is a lost art on the Internet. Instead, we get a diabtribe and scientists being wrong in the past. So be it.
67 posted on 10/27/2009 11:41:43 AM PDT by whattajoke (Let's keep Conservatism real.)
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To: xcamel

Physician, heal thyself.....


68 posted on 10/27/2009 11:42:01 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
Please explain to me how rapid variation arising within a species is not evolution by definition.

Evolution = change in the genes or frequency of a gene within a population.

How could variation arise within a species without it being evolution by definition?

How does this “rapid” variation within a species arise?

How is this variation somehow not evolution?

‘Because I say so!’ is not a reasonable answer, but somehow I suspect it is all you are capable of coming up with.

69 posted on 10/27/2009 11:43:47 AM PDT by allmendream (Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be RE-distributed?)
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To: allmendream; G Larry
(making it obvious that you lacked the capacity to understand my answer if by reading it you thought I was suggesting otherwise)

How delusional can you be, amd? You SAID,..."New species arise not by the genetic changes within an individual; but from the changes and selective pressures within an entire interbreeding population; much as the selective pressure of living in Europe led to pale skin in the populations that lived there.

There is no room for misunderstanding your comment, and accusing someone of misunderstanding a clearly worded statement to weasel out of admitting that you screwed up and worded the comment badly, fools no one but you.

70 posted on 10/27/2009 11:46:51 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: G Larry

Your response still contains no example of scientific achievement. Criticism is easy - that seems to be what you are pointing to. But scientific evaluation it isn’t.


71 posted on 10/27/2009 11:46:55 AM PDT by FormerRep
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To: allmendream

I’m just waiting for the term, “fully formed.”

If only so I can ask for the billionth time what a non fully formed fossil (or animal) would be.


72 posted on 10/27/2009 11:47:47 AM PDT by whattajoke (Let's keep Conservatism real.)
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To: metmom
A new species does not arise from the genetic changes within a single individual; but from the changes and selective pressures exerted upon an entire interbreeding population.

Still having trouble understanding it, or do I need to draw you a picture?

So where does this “rapid” variation within a species come from and why isn't it evolution as biologists define evolution?

Why are you both so studiously and obstinately avoiding the question?

73 posted on 10/27/2009 11:49:11 AM PDT by allmendream (Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be RE-distributed?)
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To: G Larry; allmendream

“New species arise not by the genetic changes within an individual; but from the changes and selective pressures”

Now there’s a pile of crap with no scientific support!

Just how are are these oh so carefully defined “changes and selective pressures” passed to the next generation, if not gentically?”

Note: Allmendream used the correlative AND in his sentence meaning that not one, but both, would be required.


74 posted on 10/27/2009 11:49:51 AM PDT by FormerRep
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To: allmendream
So your suggestion is that for a new species to arise all of the ancestral species must die off?

Can an evo ever NOT misrepresent or read into what someone says?

Apparently not.

Just what in my comment suggested that I thought that? I didn't address that at all, nor did I imply it.

If you want to discredit me you'll have to pick a more credible strawman to erect.

75 posted on 10/27/2009 11:50:14 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: allmendream
‘Because I say so!’ is not a reasonable answer, but somehow I suspect it is all you are capable of coming up with.

You mean I can't use the standard evo knee jerk response?

Why the double standard all the time with the evos?

76 posted on 10/27/2009 11:51:24 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
So where does this “rapid” variation within a species come from and why isn't it evolution as biologists define evolution?

Why are you so studiously and obstinately avoiding the question?

77 posted on 10/27/2009 11:52:53 AM PDT by allmendream (Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be RE-distributed?)
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To: allmendream

“If you want to drop the conversation I can certainly see why.”

Variation within a species is not the evolution theory you subscribe to. Variation within a species is a scientific fact, unlike the theory, or I should say, the hypothesis of evolution which is not scientific fact.
There are no beneficial mutations (evolution) taking place when a species exhibits variation. There is only an expression of genes already in the DNA.
And I promise I’ll not respond to any more of your posts....maybe.


78 posted on 10/27/2009 11:53:54 AM PDT by MGBGUN (Freedom is not free.)
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To: metmom; allmendream; G Larry
"New species arise not by the genetic changes within an individual; but from the changes and selective pressures within an entire interbreeding population;

I can't follow... Does metmom have an issue with this statement? I would suppose so... And this is where "fully formed" and "crocoducks" and other creationist canards come from. Although the literature is available to all, they still have the impression that evolution works via a monstrous interspecies creature that came to be via a horrible mutation and that grotesquely mutated creature was somehow capable of breeding other grotesque creature who then somehow became fully formed.

That's the perception of evolution that has many creationists so confused. Unfortunately, changes in allele frequency through time don't quite work that way.

At all.
79 posted on 10/27/2009 11:54:58 AM PDT by whattajoke (Let's keep Conservatism real.)
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To: metmom; GodGunsGuts
I did find this interesting bit of news. So I wonder how Archeopteryx fits into the picture now?

“The detail in their (Gansus) preservation, such as the bone structure and even foot webbing, indicates the animals were well adapted to an aquatic existence. Scientists say Gansus is the oldest known member of the group that includes modern birds. They believe this makes its story a critical one in understanding the evolution of avian species.
“Every bird living today, from ostriches... to bald eagles, probably evolved from a Gansus-like ancestor,” Matthew Lamanna, of Carnegie Natural History Museum in Pittsburgh, US, told a news conference on Thursday.
Gansus yumenensis was first described from a fossil leg found in 1983. The new finds, however, give scientists an almost complete view of the animal. All they lack now is an example of a skull. The specimens come from a quarry near the town of Changma, in China's Gansu Province, about 2,000km (1,200 miles) west of Beijing. Co-author Jerald Harris, of Dixie State College of Utah, said the animal was very modern in its appearance.
“If you took most of the bones in its body, including famous pieces like the breastbone and the wishbone, and put them next to those of a modern bird, you'd have a lot of difficulty telling them apart,” he told the BBC Radio 4’s Leading Edge programme.
“Gansus would probably have looked very much like a grebe or a diver, or certain kinds of ducks. It had webbed feet and it had fairly powerful legs. We can tell that from looking at the bones in the knee area. This tells us it was a very well-adapted diving or swimming-type bird.”
palaeosbios.blogspot.com/.../waterfowl-fossil-makes-splash.html

And this from NatGeo:

“.......According to the researchers, Gansus is the oldest clearly established member of the subclass Ornithurae, the group most closely related to modern birds.
The Gansus fossils are only 10 to 15 million years younger than the “feathered dinosaurs” discovered a decade ago at Liaoning, in western China.............
news.nationalgeographic.com/.../060615-dinosaurs_2.html -

80 posted on 10/27/2009 11:55:10 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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