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BBC: St. Thomas Becket "Worst Briton of 12th Century" (!!)
BBC ^ | 12/27/2005 | n/a

Posted on 12/28/2005 7:27:15 PM PST by Pyro7480

'Worst' historical Britons named
Historians have put together a list of the 10 "worst" Britons of the last 1,000 years. They chose one rogue from each century of the last millennium to compile the list for the BBC History Magazine.

Jack the Ripper, King John and Oswald Mosley - founder of the British Union of Fascists - are among the selection.

Magazine editor Dave Musgrove said the different "definitions of wickedness" of the 10 historians questioned had led to a diverse list....

The "greedy" Thomas Becket, Archbishop of Canterbury, was nominated by Professor John Hudson, of St Andrews University, as the 12th century's worst villain.

"He divided England in a way that even many churchmen who shared some of his views thought unnecessary and self-indulgent," he said.

"He was a founder of gesture politics."

"Those who share my prejudice against Becket may consider his assassination in Canterbury Cathedral on 29 December, 1170, a fittingly grisly end."

[The list is the cover story of BBC History Magazine's January 2006 issue.]


TOPICS: Catholic; General Discusssion; History; Mainline Protestant; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Theology
KEYWORDS: bbc; becket; britain; british; canterbury; catholic; godsgravesglyphs; history; saint; thomas; thomasbecket; topten; uk; unitedkingdom
The honourable saint sounds like a predecessor of those "evil Republicans who have divided America."


John Hudson

1 posted on 12/28/2005 7:27:19 PM PST by Pyro7480
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To: Pyro7480
St. Thomas Becket, pray for us!


2 posted on 12/28/2005 7:28:56 PM PST by Pyro7480 (Sancte Joseph, terror daemonum, ora pro nobis!)
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To: Siobhan; Canticle_of_Deborah; broadsword; NYer; Salvation; sandyeggo; american colleen; ...

Catholic ping!


3 posted on 12/28/2005 7:29:44 PM PST by Pyro7480 (Sancte Joseph, terror daemonum, ora pro nobis!)
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To: MadIvan; Aussie Dasher

Ping!


4 posted on 12/28/2005 7:30:44 PM PST by Pyro7480 (Sancte Joseph, terror daemonum, ora pro nobis!)
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To: Pyro7480
St. Thomas, evil? Bleech.
Becket is one of my favourite movies of all time.
5 posted on 12/28/2005 8:01:21 PM PST by Lilllabettt
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To: Pyro7480

I would rank any of Burgess, MacLean, Philby, Blunt etc far worse than ol' Oswald but of course they were Soviet stooges so they (still) get a free pass.


6 posted on 12/28/2005 8:02:11 PM PST by 1066AD
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To: Pyro7480

I nominate George Galloway for the 21st Century...


7 posted on 12/28/2005 8:04:18 PM PST by Pharmboy (The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.)
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To: Pyro7480; English Nationalist; Canard; Prodigal Son; Winniesboy; pau1f0rd; Brit_Guy; Da_Shrimp; ...

What would you expect? This is Britain where most Britons have the idea of a Christianity shaped by national culture, rather than a concept of universal Christianity or that this university shaping national culture i.e. Briton first, Christian second is their motto.


8 posted on 12/28/2005 8:08:45 PM PST by NZerFromHK (Alberta independentists to Canada (read: Ontario and Quebec): One hundred years is long enough)
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To: Pyro7480

I'd nominate Cromwell.


9 posted on 12/28/2005 8:30:57 PM PST by sassbox (Merry Christmas!)
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To: Pyro7480

Founder of the principle of separation of Church and State (although others such as Augustine deserve mention also); martyr, recognized as a saint by the Britons; rescuer of the faith from political corruption... how evil!


10 posted on 12/28/2005 8:32:56 PM PST by dangus
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To: 1066AD

MacLean Stevenson? I didn't know ANYONE disliked MacLean Stevenson. (I take from your name you're a history buff...)


11 posted on 12/28/2005 8:34:35 PM PST by dangus
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To: Pyro7480

You have to love a University Professor / author who mispells the name of his university on his web page.


12 posted on 12/28/2005 8:36:38 PM PST by dangus
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To: dangus

Mine is a typo. (Hangs head in shame.)


13 posted on 12/28/2005 8:37:25 PM PST by dangus
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To: Pyro7480

The BBC? Will no one rid me of this meddlesome network?


14 posted on 12/28/2005 8:42:45 PM PST by XEHRpa
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To: dangus

Huh?


15 posted on 12/28/2005 8:45:51 PM PST by Pyro7480 (Sancte Joseph, terror daemonum, ora pro nobis!)
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To: Pyro7480
St. Thomas Becket (feast Dec. 29): soldier, diplomat, lawyer, financier, priest, counselor of kings, leader of countries, and martyr, according to Crocker's 'Triumph' (p. 161):

"As archbishop Becket insisted on the Church's independence in its right to make its own clerical appointments."

If Professor Hudson thinks that Becket is evil and that religious groups should not have freedom and independence, then Professor Hudson is supporting a socialism that does not work - as historians should know by now.

St. Thomas Becket, ora pro nobis peccatoribus. (cc: Hudson)
16 posted on 12/28/2005 9:00:43 PM PST by Falconspeed (Keep your fears to yourself, but share your courage with others. Robert Louis Stevenson)
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To: Pyro7480
St Thomas of Canterbury(1118-1170) [St Thomas a Becket]

The Murder of Thomas Becket, 1170

BBC: St. Thomas Becket "Worst Briton of 12th Century"

 

 


17 posted on 12/28/2005 9:14:22 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: dangus
No, Donald MacLean, one of the celebrated(?) soviet recruits of the Cambridge Spies
18 posted on 12/28/2005 9:50:56 PM PST by 1066AD
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To: 1066AD
Another link.

Another associate was Tom Driberg who became a post-WW2 Labour Party Member of Parliament but his involvement was in the homosexual arena rather than spying.

19 posted on 12/28/2005 10:05:38 PM PST by 1066AD
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To: Pyro7480

Here's the full list:

1900 to 2000: Oswald Mosley
(1896-1980)
1800 to 1900: Jack the Ripper
1700 to 1800: Duke of Cumberland (1721-1765)
1600 to 1700: Titus Oates
(1649-1705)
1500 to 1600: Sir Richard Rich (Lord Rich of Leighs)
(1496/7-1567)
1400 to 1500: Thomas Arundel (1353-1414)
1300 to 1400: Hugh Despenser (The Younger)
(died 1326)
1200 to 1300: King John
(1167-1216)
1100 to 1200: Thomas Becket
Archbishop of Canterbury
(c.1120-1170)
1000 to 1100: Eadric Streona
(died 1017)

Short bios here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4561624.stm


20 posted on 12/28/2005 10:27:57 PM PST by PAR35
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To: Pyro7480

I'd never thought I'd see a modern British academic defending the authority of the monarchy, even indirectly.


21 posted on 12/28/2005 10:37:47 PM PST by Dumb_Ox (Hoc ad delectationem stultorum scriptus est)
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To: XEHRpa
Will no one rid me of this meddlesome network?

Lol. If only a hair-shirt were to be found on the BBC's dead body. It might improve their reputation if they could show some sort of post-humous remorse for their errors. Not likely, I'm afraid.
22 posted on 12/29/2005 1:09:37 AM PST by Lilllabettt
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To: Pyro7480
Professor John Hudson, of St Andrews University

*No doubt a Poofter Professor; well, he represents Perfidious Albion and he hates Becket, therefore, he can kiss my arse

BTW, Jesus is divisive

23 posted on 12/29/2005 4:22:03 AM PST by bornacatholic
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To: Lilllabettt


***Lol. If only a hair-shirt were to be found on the BBC's dead body. ***

We already know they have lice as their programing is lousy!

Is it true that some people at Becket's funeral went into fits when they saw the lice abandoning his body?


24 posted on 12/29/2005 4:55:42 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (THE BIBLE. The most sold and least read book in the world!)
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To: dangus
Founder of the principle of separation of Church and State (...... how evil!

The idea that clergymen are immune to civil law - that rates as evil

25 posted on 12/29/2005 5:26:06 AM PST by Oztrich Boy (so natural to mankind is intolerance in whatever they really care about - J S Mill)
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To: Pyro7480

Just an amateur opinion, but I don't think the professor can see the sun shine from the current location of his head. Becket and Henry II were reportedly reconciled before his assasination.

I'll nominate this broad:

1114 - Matilda (Maud), daughter of Henry I of England marries Emperor Henry V

1129 - Empress Matilda, widow of Henry V, marries Geoffrey the Handsome, Count of Anjou, nicknamed " Plantagenet "

1139 - Matilda lands in England

1141 - Matilda captures Stephen at the battle of Lincoln, and reigns disastrously as queen; she is driven out by a popular rising and Stephen restored

1148 - Matilda leaves England for the last time


26 posted on 12/29/2005 5:32:20 AM PST by siunevada (If we learn nothing from history, what's the point of having one? - Peggy Hill)
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To: Oztrich Boy; dangus
The idea that clergymen are immune to civil law - that rates as evil

'Civil law' of the time consisted in whatever the king willed and was able to enforce. Must not have been a very popular 'British' concept given that the Magna Carta was signed in 1215.

27 posted on 12/29/2005 5:45:46 AM PST by siunevada (If we learn nothing from history, what's the point of having one? - Peggy Hill)
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To: siunevada
'Civil law' of the time consisted in whatever the king willed and was able to enforce.

And yet The Constitution of the United States of America - Fifth Amendment--Rights of Persons with the imprimatur of The Unites States Senate, gives more credit for Henry II's Assize of Clarendon of 1166 as a basis of US civil law than Becket's benefit of clergy.

28 posted on 12/29/2005 6:16:09 AM PST by Oztrich Boy (so natural to mankind is intolerance in whatever they really care about - J S Mill)
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To: Oztrich Boy
Henry wanted to control the church completely... there's a difference.

He assumed Becket would play along... he didn't.

Obviously, you think there should be no separation of church and state... and you must love eminent domain (as evidenced by the raiding and shutting down of the Cathedrals and churches... a lot, and taking the lands?

Go read some more about what happened (history, not BBC)... then get back to me.

29 posted on 12/29/2005 6:22:06 AM PST by AliVeritas (The Boy Who Cried Wolf in reverse- the DNC. The Constitution is not a suicide pact - A.L.)
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To: AliVeritas
Obviously, you think there should be no separation of church and state...

One Law for all: lay and clerk: same crime, same penalty.

30 posted on 12/29/2005 6:33:34 AM PST by Oztrich Boy (so natural to mankind is intolerance in whatever they really care about - J S Mill)
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To: Pyro7480

. . . the shrine shall be pillaged, and the gold spent,
The jewels gone for light ladies' ornament,
The sanctuary broken, and its stores
Swept into the laps of parasites and whores.
When miracles cease, and the faithful desert you.
And men shall only do their best to forget you.
And later is worse, when men will not hate you
Enough to defame or to execrate you,
But pondering the qualities that you lacked
Will only try to find the historical fact.
When men shall declare that there was no mystery
About this man who played a certain part in history.




I know
What yet remains to show you of my history
Will seem to most of you at best futility,
Senseless self-slaughter of a lunatic,
Arrogant passion of a fanatic.
I know that history at all times draws
The strangest consequence from remotest cause.
But for every evil, every sacrilege,
Crime, wrong, oppression and the axe's edge,
Indifference, exploitation, you, and you,
And you, must all be punished. So must you.

You think me reckless, desperate and mad.
You argue by results, as this world does,
To settle if an act be good or bad.
You defer to the fact. For every life and every act
COnsequence of good and evil can be shown.
And as in time results of many deeds are blended
So good and evil in the end become confounded.
It is not in time that my death shall be know;
It is out of time that my decision is taken
If you call that decision
To which my whole being gives entire consent.
I give my life
To the Law of God above the Law of Man.

-------

No. For the Church is stronger for this action,
Triumphant in adversity. It is fortified
By persecution: supreme, so long as men will die for it.
Go, weak sad men, lost erring souls, homeless in earth or heaven.
Go where the sunset reddens the last grey rock
Of Brittany, or the Gates of Hercules.
Go venture shipwreck on sullen coasts
Where blackamoors make captive Christian men;
Go to the northern seas confined with ice
Where the dead breath makes numb the hand, makes dull the brain;
Find an oasis in the desert sun,
Go seek alliance with the heathen Saracen,
To share his filthy rites, and try to snatch
Forgetfulness in his libidinous courts,
Oblivion in the fountain by the date-tree;
Or sit and bite your nails in Aquitaine.
In the small circle of pain within the skull
You still shall tramp and tread one endless round
Of thought, to justify your action to yourselves,
Weaving a fiction which unravels as you weave,
Pacing forever in the hell of make believe
Which never is belief: this is your fate on earth
And we must think no further of you.

O my lord,
the glory of whose new state is hidden from us,
Pray for us of your charity.

Now in the sight of God
Conjoined with all the saints and martyrs gone before you,
Remember us.




Forgive us, O Lord, we acknowledge ourselves as type of the common man,
Of the men and women who shut the door and sit by the fire;
Who fear the blessing of God, the loneliness of the night of God, the surrender required, the deprivation inflicted;
Who fear the injustice of men less than the justice of God;
Who fear the hand at the window, the fire in the thatch, the fist in the tavern, the push into the canal,
Less than we fear the love of God.
We acknowledge our trespass, our weakness, our fault; we acknowledge
That the sin of world is upon our heads; that the blood of the martyrs and the agony of the saints
Is upon our heads.
Lord, have mercy upon us.
Christ, have mercy upon us.
Lord, have mercy upon us.
Blessed Thomas, pray for us.


T.S. Eliot, Murder in the Cathedral (1935)


31 posted on 12/29/2005 6:36:54 AM PST by TaxachusettsMan
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To: Pyro7480

Piffle! Lotta worse people kicking around the 12th century.

St. Thomas Becket is my son Thomas's patron, since General Jackson isn't "official."


32 posted on 12/29/2005 8:16:36 AM PST by Tax-chick (I am just not sure how to get from here to where we want to be.)
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To: Oztrich Boy
And yet The Constitution of the United States of America - Fifth Amendment--Rights of Persons with the imprimatur of The Unites States Senate, gives more credit for Henry II's Assize of Clarendon of 1166 as a basis of US civil law than Becket's benefit of clergy.

Good point. Of course, as your link points out, the grand jury system existed in pre-Norman England.
The history of the grand jury is rooted in the common and civil law, extending back to Athens, pre-Norman England, and the Assize of Clarendon promulgated by Henry II.

One might argue that Becket the archbishop was more representative of pre-Norman English law and life than Henry II.

33 posted on 12/29/2005 8:44:04 AM PST by siunevada (If we learn nothing from history, what's the point of having one? - Peggy Hill)
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To: Pyro7480
I emailed Prof. Hudson and he kindly emailed back saying,

"The early sources give no sign of saintliness, although in his secular career certainly many signs of effectiveness ... and his canonisation was duly swift."

I kindly responded (1) that early sources do show signs of Becket's saintliness, such as the monk Gervase, and (2) that his canonization only took three years because there were so many miracles at his grave.

This is higher academia at its best, imho.
34 posted on 12/29/2005 9:55:12 AM PST by Falconspeed (Keep your fears to yourself, but share your courage with others. Robert Louis Stevenson)
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To: Pyro7480

He is a martyr for freedom of the Church from government control. Obviously, somebody doesn't like that concept at the BBC!


35 posted on 12/29/2005 1:18:45 PM PST by Unam Sanctam
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To: Unam Sanctam

It's been years since I saw the film "Becket" with Richard Burton in the title role and Peter O'Toole as Henry, but it was marvelous theater.


36 posted on 12/30/2005 8:40:40 PM PST by Ciexyz (Let us always remember, the Lord is in control.)
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To: Falconspeed

No "King George III" ??? That memory must be too terribly painful.


37 posted on 12/30/2005 8:42:45 PM PST by Ciexyz (Let us always remember, the Lord is in control.)
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To: Oztrich Boy
One Law for all: lay and clerk: same crime, same penalty.

Wonderful theory!

"Laws are like cobwebs, which may catch small flies, but let wasps and hornets break through."

-Jonathan Swift

We all know that the rich and powerful rarely if ever suffer the same penalty as the poor and the weak.

38 posted on 01/01/2006 7:38:51 PM PST by TradicalRC (No longer to the right of the Pope...)
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To: dangus

How many know that the first article of magna carta guaranteed the liberties of the Church? Beckett was responsible for that.


39 posted on 01/01/2006 7:48:32 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS

10:1 that history professor only knew Thomas Becket failed to push for gay rights.


40 posted on 01/02/2006 6:40:34 AM PST by dangus
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To: dangus

No bet He only" knew" that Becksett was a Catholic bishop.


41 posted on 01/02/2006 8:22:38 AM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Pyro7480
American Catholic’s Saint of the Day

 

December 29, 2006
St. Thomas Becket
(1118-1170)

A strong man who wavered for a moment, but then learned one cannot come to terms with evil and so became a strong churchman, a martyr and a saint—that was Thomas Becket, archbishop of Canterbury, murdered in his cathedral on December 29, 1170.

His career had been a stormy one. While archdeacon of Canterbury, he was made chancellor of England at the age of 36 by his friend King Henry II. When Henry felt it advantageous to make his chancellor the archbishop of Canterbury, Thomas gave him fair warning: he might not accept all of Henry’s intrusions into Church affairs. Nevertheless, he was made archbishop (1162), resigned his chancellorship and reformed his whole way of life!

Troubles began. Henry insisted upon usurping Church rights. At one time, supposing some conciliatory action possible, Thomas came close to compromise. He momentarily approved the Constitutions of Clarendon, which would have denied the clergy the right of trial by a Church court and prevented them from making direct appeal to Rome. But Thomas rejected the Constitutions, fled to France for safety and remained in exile for seven years. When he returned to England, he suspected it would mean certain death. Because Thomas refused to remit censures he had placed upon bishops favored by the king, Henry cried out in a rage, “Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest!” Four knights, taking his words as his wish, slew Thomas in the Canterbury cathedral.

Thomas Becket remains a hero-saint down to our own times.

Comment:

No one becomes a saint without struggle, especially with himself. Thomas knew he must stand firm in defense of truth and right, even at the cost of his life. We also must take a stand in the face of pressures—against dishonesty, deceit, destruction of life—at the cost of popularity, convenience, promotion and even greater goods.

Quote:

In T.S. Eliot's drama, Murder in the Cathedral, Becket faces a final temptation to seek martyrdom for earthly glory and revenge. With real insight into his life situation, Thomas responds:

"The last temptation is the greatest treason: To do the right deed for the wrong reason."



42 posted on 12/29/2006 9:06:16 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Good for another read. Most inspiring.


43 posted on 12/29/2007 8:35:33 PM PST by Ciexyz
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 GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother & Ernest_at_the_Beach
Note: this topic is dated December 28, 2005.

Blast from the Past.

Thanks Pyro7480.

Just adding to the catalog, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.


44 posted on 01/04/2013 6:31:39 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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