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ANCIENT NECROPOLIS FOUND BENEATH VATICAN
Yahoo News ^ | October 9, 2006

Posted on 10/09/2006 9:03:15 AM PDT by NYer

The history of this dig may be found here.



AP - Mon Oct 9, 10:40 AM ET

In this undated photo provided Monday, Oct. 9, 2006 by the Vatican Museums, a general view of an ancient necropolis unearthed at the Vatican is seen. Vatican Museums officials and archaeologists on Monday unveiled the necropolis, which was unearthed three years ago during the construction of a parking lot for Vatican City employees and vehicles. Visitors to the Vatican will soon be able to step into the newly unveiled necropolis likened by archaeologists to a ''little Pompeii'' of cemeteries which were the final resting place of the rich and not-so-affluent inhabitants during centuries of Roman imperial Rule.


AP - Mon Oct 9, 10:41 AM ET

In this undated photo provided Monday, Oct. 9, 2006 by the Vatican Museums, a detail of an engraving in an ancient necropolis unearthed at the Vatican. Vatican Museums officials and archaeologists on Monday unveiled the necropolis, which was unearthed three years ago during the construction of a parking lot for Vatican City employees and vehicles. Visitors to the Vatican will soon be able to step into the newly unveiled necropolis likened by archaeologists to a ''little Pompeii'' of cemeteries which were the final resting place of the rich and not-so-affluent inhabitants during centuries of Roman imperial Rule.


Reuters - Mon Oct 9, 8:19 AM ET

A sarcophagus adorned with a woman and victory wings lies at the site of a Roman necropolis in the Vatican in a photograph released October 9, 2006.


Reuters - Mon Oct 9, 8:17 AM ET

Figures which adorned the tomb of a baby lie at the site of a Roman necropolis in the Vatican in a photograph released October 9, 2006.


TOPICS: Activism; Catholic; Current Events; General Discusssion; History; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: anthropology; archaeology; godsgravesglyphs; necropolis; nero; vatican
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1 posted on 10/09/2006 9:03:16 AM PDT by NYer
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To: SunkenCiv

Check this out...


2 posted on 10/09/2006 9:05:13 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly.)
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To: SunkenCiv

?GGG ping


3 posted on 10/09/2006 9:06:03 AM PDT by CholeraJoe (USAF Air Rescue "That others may live.")
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To: NYer
Wow, this is cool. That baby's head is haunting (no pun intended), all those centuries lying covered underground.
4 posted on 10/09/2006 9:07:11 AM PDT by starbase (Understanding Written Propaganda (click "starbase" to learn 22 manipulating tricks!!))
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To: Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

In this undated photo provided Monday, Oct. 9, 2006 by the Vatican Museums, terracotta vases are seen in an ancient necropolis unearthed at the Vatican.
5 posted on 10/09/2006 9:07:26 AM PDT by NYer ("It is easier for the earth to exist without sun than without the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. PPio)
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To: NYer
I think the title should be more aptly "necropolis unveiled"..the fact that there was a necropolis was found during the Pius XII digs, no?

This is where the ostensible bones of St. Peter were found and the candidate for the "troparion" or trophy of Gaius. Constantine had gone through a massive amount of effort to put the basilica on top of the Vatican hill, and to align its main altar directly over a grave in the Roman necropolis.

6 posted on 10/09/2006 9:17:07 AM PDT by Claud
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To: NYer

Thanks so much NYer.


7 posted on 10/09/2006 9:20:55 AM PDT by AliVeritas (Gay democrats... you are about to go the way of blacks for illegals votes... your party.)
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To: NYer; Smokin' Joe; CholeraJoe; blam; FairOpinion; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; ...
Thanks NYer, Smokin' Joe, and CholeraJoe.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

8 posted on 10/09/2006 9:21:10 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (If I had a nut allergy, I'd be outta here. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: NYer; SunkenCiv
A couple of other articles, no photos:Does anyone know where this necropolis is on this map of Vatican City?

 
   
Vatican City Map
 

Welcome
Floorplan
Square & Area
Documents
Images

Grottoes
Colonnade Saints
Floorplan #2

Altars
Monuments
The History

Related Items
Overlay Map

 

 

 

 

 1 Bronze Doors
 2 Arch of the Bells
 3 St Peter's Door
 4 Tower of Nicolas V
 5 Palace of Sixtus V
 6 Palace of Gregory V
 7 Medieval Palace
 8 Borgia Tower
 9 Sistine Chapel
10 Hall of Ligorio
11 Vatican Apostolic Library
    (Bldg. of Sixtus V)
12 Courtyard of the Library
13 Braccio Nuove
14 Tower of the Winds
15 Corridor of Bramante
16 Niche of the Pinecone
17 Fountain of the Sailing Ship
18 Stairway of Bramante
19 The Belvedere
20 Pio-Clementino Museum
21 The Four Gates
22 Entrance to the
    Vatican Museums
23 Painting Gallery
24 Gregorian Profane Museum,    
   Pius Christian Museum and    Ethnological Museum
25 Carriage Museum
26 The Passetto
27 Gate of Sant' Anna
28 Church of Sant' Anna dei    Palafrenieri
29 Courtyard of the Swiss Guards
30 Vatican Printing Press
31 Restoration Lab of Tapestries
32 Church of San Pellegrino
33 L'Osservatore Romano
34 Central Post Office
35 Palace of the Belvedere
36 Piazza del Forno
37 Fountain of the Sacrament
38 Casino Pio of Pius IV
  39 Pontifical Academy of Sciences
40 House of the Gardener
41 Fountain of the Eagle
42 Tower of Gallinaro
43 Vatican Radio
44 Border of the Leonine City
45 Grotto of Lourdes
46 Tower of St John
47 Marconi Transmitting Station

48 Ethiopian College
49 Governatorato Building
50 Railway Station
51 Mosaic Studio
52 Church of Santo Stefano degli Abissini
53 Tribunal Palace
54 Palace of the Archpriest
55 Palace of San Carlo


56 Piazza Santa Marta
57 Hospice of Santa Marta
58 Palace of the Rectory and Sacristy
59 Plaza of the Roman Protomartyrs
60 Teutonic College and Cemetery
61 Papal Audience Hall
62 Palace of the Sant' Uffizio
63 Church of San Salvatore in Terrione
       

St Joan Antide Thouret (b) - St Bruno (a) St Gaetano Thiene (b) - St Jerome Emiliani (a) St Bonfiglio (b) - St Francis Cabrini (a) St Paul of the Cross (b) - St Joseph Calasanctius (a) St Elias (b) - St Francis de Sales (a) St Dominic (b) - St Francesco Carocciolo (a) St Francis of Assisi (b) - St Alphonsus of Liguori (a) St Benedict (b) - St Francis of Rome (a) St Norbert (b) - St William (a) St Angela Merici (a) - St Juliana Falconieri (a) St Peter Nolasco (b) - St Louise de Marillac St John of God (b) - St Mary Euphrasia Pellettier (a) St John Bosco (a) St Francis de Paola (b) - St Peter Fourier (a) St Philip Neri (b) - St John Baptist de la Salle (a) St Ignatius of Loyola (b) - St Anthony Mary Zaccaria (a) St Vincent de Paul (b) - St John Eudes (a) St Camillo de Lellis (b) - St Louis Grignion de Montfort (a) St Theresa of Jesus (b) - St Sofia Maddalena Barat (a) St Peter of Alcantara (b) - St Lucia Filippini (a) Confessio - Tomb of St Peter Papal Altar & Baldacchino Chapel of the Pieta Monument to Leo XII Monument to Christina of Sweden Monument to Pius XI Chapel of St Sebastian Monument to Pius XII Monument to Innocent XII Monument to Matilda of Canossa Chapel of the Blessed Sacrament Monument to Gregory XIII Monument to Gregory XIIII Monument to Gregory XVI Altar of Our Lady of Succour Gregorian Chapel Bronze Statue of St Peter Altar of St Jerome (Body of John XXIII) Monument to Benedict XIV Altar of St Basil Right Transept Altar of St Wenceslas Altar of Sts Processus & Martinian Altar of St Erasmus Monument to Clement XIII Altar of the Navicella Altar of St Michael the Archangel Altar of St Petronilla Altar of St Peter Raising Tabitha Monument to Clement X The Tribune Altar of St Peter's Throne Monument to Urban VIII Monument to Paul III Altar of St Peter Healing the Cripple Monument to Alexander VIII Altar of St Leo the Great Chapel of Our Lady of the Column Altar of Our Lady of the Column Altar of the Sacred Heart Monument to Alexander VII Altar of St Thomas Altar of St Joseph Altar of the Crucifixion of St Peter Left Transept The Dome Statue of St Veronica Statue of St Helen Statue of St Longinus Statue of St Andrew Altar of the Falsehood Monument to Pius VIII Entrance to Sacristy & Treasury Altar of the Transfiguration Clementine Chapel Altar of St Gregory the Great Monument to Pius VII Monument to Innocent XI Altar of the Immaculate Conception Monument to Leo XI Chapel of the Choir Monument to Innocent VIII Monument to Pius X Monument to John XXIII Altar of the Presentation Monument to Benedict XV Monument to the Stuarts Monument to Maria Clementina Sobieski Baptistery Nave Constantine Equestrian Statue Entrance to Dome elevator Holy Door Door of the Sacraments Filarete Door Door of Good and Evil Door of Death Charlemagne Equestrian Statue Portico Giotto's mosaic of the Navicella Entrance to Scavi Tour Walkway to Sacristy & Museum Apostolic Palace Sts Thadeus, Matthew, Philip, Thomas, James the Greater, John the Baptist, Christ Redeemer, Andrew, John, James the Lesser, Bartholomew, Simeon, Matthias Roof of St Peter's Cross St Peter's Square St Peter's Square Water Fountain Water Fountain Water Fountain Water Fountain Entrance to Charlemagne Wing Bernini's Colonnade Bernini's Colonnade Bronze Doors - Entrance to Apostolic Palace Post Office & Information Bookstore Center of the Left Colonnade Center of the Right Colonnade Fountain of Maderno Fountain of Fontana Exit Elevator from Roof Facade by Maderno Dome of the Clementine Chapel

And, what's the Holy Casino of Pius IV? :-) Dome of the Gregorian Chapel Loggia of the Benediction Lantern - Viewing Area Michelangelo's Dome Drum of Michelangelo's Dome Papal Apartments The "Passetto" Arch of the Bells - Entrance Obelisk Statue of St Paul Statue of St Peter Roof of Basilica - Gift Shop Sistine Chapel Obelisk - original location Treasury Museum Sacristy

9 posted on 10/09/2006 9:40:26 AM PDT by Mike Fieschko
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To: NYer

I thought everyone knew the Vatican was built over an ancient Roman Cemetery, where Peter was buried after he was crucified head down.

Great post and photos!


10 posted on 10/09/2006 9:50:58 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar ((Democrats have never found a fight they couldn't run from...Ann Coulter))
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
I thought everyone knew the Vatican was built over an ancient Roman Cemetery, where Peter was buried after he was crucified head down.

This necropolis is a different one than the one with St Peter. St Peter's is below the basilica's foundations, this one outside the basilica.

current St Peter's Basilica, showing necropolis (brown).

11 posted on 10/09/2006 10:15:57 AM PDT by Mike Fieschko
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To: Claud; SunkenCiv; All
I think the title should be more aptly "necropolis unveiled".

You're right. This is not the best title. The original news story (linked above) is to Bloomberg which is a blocked source. They entitled their news story: Vatican Necropolis Gives Up Secrets After Escaping Construction

I searched other news sources but the best I could find were the photographs released by the Vatican which are posted above. CNN and USA Today are now catching up. BTW - those terracotta pipes projecting from the ground, are funnels where visitors would pour honey and other foods down to the deceased.

Here's one more photo.



In this undated photo provided Monday, Oct. 9, 2006 by the Vatican Museums, a mosaic floor is seen in an ancient necropolis unearthed at the Vatican.

12 posted on 10/09/2006 10:19:26 AM PDT by NYer ("It is easier for the earth to exist without sun than without the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. PPio)
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To: NYer

Great post...


13 posted on 10/09/2006 10:29:03 AM PDT by exdem2000
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To: NYer

The bloomberg headline reads like a bad babblefish translation of pravda.


14 posted on 10/09/2006 10:42:45 AM PDT by Jaded ("I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."- Joseph Ratzinger)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

I rather think that Peter was a myth.

Romans died long before the Xians came. They took many of their burial practices from the Etruscans, who had very elaborate burial chambers that can still be viewed today.

The Romans also took from the Etruscans their eating practices (lying down on couches). I always thought of the last supper as the disciples lying 4 and 5 to a couch (crowded: 3 to a couch was optimum). Gives an insight to John lying in Jesus bosom....


15 posted on 10/09/2006 11:15:22 AM PDT by donmeaker (If the sky don't say "Surrender Dorothy!" then my ex wife is out of town.)
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To: donmeaker

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/peterpope.html

The myth of Peter as head of the church was not promugated until the 4th century, and was never accepted by the Orthodox. Many of the supports of that myth are either ridiculous, or fraud.

Constantinius had reasons for moving his capital away from Rome, the Romans being part of that.


16 posted on 10/09/2006 11:29:40 AM PDT by donmeaker (If the sky don't say "Surrender Dorothy!" then my ex wife is out of town.)
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To: Mike Fieschko

From the photo in post #1, my guess is that the dig is at site # 65.


17 posted on 10/09/2006 11:33:22 AM PDT by Remole
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To: donmeaker

Why do you think that? There's more independent evidence (not to mention a contemporaneous epitaph on the site of his former burial place) for the existence of St. Peter than most of the Romans of the time.


18 posted on 10/09/2006 11:42:44 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: donmeaker
I rather think that Peter was a myth.

I rather wonder why you think so, except some vague assumption that it couldn't *possibly* be true simply because it is has been maintained for 2000 years straight.

There is of course, no question that the Romans and the Etruscans borrowed many practices. Or that Romans buried their dead in necropoli (I have, in fact, been to the most famous Etruscan one at Cerveteri).

But what that has to do with St. Peter being a myth, I have no idea. To say nothing of the NT, the historical sources--*from the 2nd century* are unanimous in putting Peter in Rome. We have found his name scratched on graffiti in that necropolis below the cathedral.

Do you expect us to believe that an entirely different person of an entirely different name--both lost to history--headed the Christian community in Rome? A person apparently totally forgotten by everyone? And instead the Christian writers of the 1st and second century, who could name the succession from Peter to Linus to Clement and on, (oops!) just accidentally ascribed the founding to a made-up Galilean fisherman?

*Sigh*...how I tire of this modern fetish of "debunking".

19 posted on 10/09/2006 11:46:57 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Claud
It is easy to refute this person He writes on the website:

It's setting is post-resurrection, and the resurrection, as we have shown, is not historical.

He states that the resurrection is not historical! I am going to take theological advice from this person and his fine geocities publication? It would be like using the "Dixie Chicks" myspace voter guide.
20 posted on 10/09/2006 11:55:47 AM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: Mike Fieschko

Thanks for the info about the necropolis....didn't know this was a new one.


21 posted on 10/09/2006 12:17:16 PM PDT by Claud
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To: Dominick; donmeaker
Indeed...but the Resurrection, though historical, is not the easiest thing for a skeptic to grasp. And my goal here is not so much to refute his point but to help him to see some problems with his own conclusions in this regard.
22 posted on 10/09/2006 12:27:15 PM PDT by Claud
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To: NYer
One is reminded that, as Douglas MacArthur put it, we are a people of ancient and honorable descent.
23 posted on 10/09/2006 12:54:25 PM PDT by Iris7 (Dare to be pigheaded! Stubborn! "Tolerance" is not a virtue!)
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To: Remole

Sorry--I meant # 63.


24 posted on 10/09/2006 1:25:19 PM PDT by Remole
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To: NYer; Dr. Eckleburg
Why seek ye the living among the dead?(Lk.24:5)
25 posted on 10/09/2006 1:46:13 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth? (Gal.4:16))
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To: donmeaker
You may be invincibly ignorant. Put down The DaVinci Code and back away, slowly.

There are many, many contemporaneous Christian writers from the first and second centuries A.D. who mention St. Peter as Bishop of Rome and head of the Church.

In order to believe that nonsensical geocities website, you have to ignore ALL the historical evidence (and there is plenty.)

26 posted on 10/09/2006 2:01:54 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Claud

You beat me to it!


27 posted on 10/09/2006 2:02:30 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Mike Fieschko
Good question! I tried to figure that out before I read further down the thread.

According to this account in La Stampa via an italian blog site, it's located " all’edificio dell’Annona vaticana e accanto alla fontana della Galea - si estendeva lungo le pendici della collina al lato della Via Triumphalis."

I think Galea is a typo there & it's really the Fontana de Galera, or Fountain of the Sailing Ship (#17 on your map). The reference to the 'edificio dell'Annona' kinda throws me off though. It's not on vatican maps (Annonas are like ancient roman granaries, usually associated with municipal financial administration). I know that the Vatican Printing office bldg (#30 on your map) is sometimes referred to as "Spazzo Annonari". But the ancient Via Triumphalis (a short section of which is still called the Via Trionfale in modern Rome) that La Stampa refers to would probably extend over closer to the fountain.

My mom, who has spent a lot more time than I inside the walls of the Vatican & who has molto bene contacts there, thinks she heard it was way over by the vaticano railway station though. Sorry, I don't think she's right. I vote for this area right below (just SE of) the fountain where all the dusty white stuff is just inside the walls shown here on google maps.

Fontana della Galera

28 posted on 10/09/2006 2:05:08 PM PDT by leilani (Dimmi, dimmi se mai fu fatta cosa alcuna!)
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To: leilani

Thanks. I figured there would be someone on FR familiar enough with what's inside the Vatican City walls, to make an educated guess.


29 posted on 10/09/2006 2:13:40 PM PDT by Mike Fieschko
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To: Mike Fieschko

Eek! LOL. Not an educated guess, just a shot in the dark, and I fully expect to be proven wrong when they finally get around to telling us exactly where the new garage is.


30 posted on 10/09/2006 2:21:22 PM PDT by leilani (Dimmi, dimmi se mai fu fatta cosa alcuna!)
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To: AnAmericanMother
No, I think you beat me!

PETROS ENI

:)

31 posted on 10/09/2006 2:34:29 PM PDT by Claud
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To: NYer
Cool. Read about this in "Biblical Archeology".
32 posted on 10/09/2006 3:55:40 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: NYer

Wow, neat !!!!


33 posted on 10/09/2006 4:26:31 PM PDT by Dustbunny (The BIBLE - Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth)
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To: NYer; SunkenCiv

way cool!


34 posted on 10/09/2006 5:31:23 PM PDT by kstewskis ("Tolerance is what happens when one loses their principles..." Fr. A. Saenz)
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To: AnAmericanMother

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/christian-history.html

I just went through the above site: It confirmed my memory of my courses at Evangel College:

None of the First Century writers mentioned Peter as bishop of Rome. The mentions of him were either quotes from the gospel, or allusions to Peter as an apostle.


35 posted on 10/09/2006 5:36:19 PM PDT by donmeaker (If the sky don't say "Surrender Dorothy!" then my ex wife is out of town.)
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To: NYer

No surprise. The reason St. Peter's is located on the Vatican hill is because St. Peter was buried there. They actually found what are believed to be his remains buried in a spot which had a graffito which read "Peter is here" carved over top of it some 20 years ago.


36 posted on 10/09/2006 5:51:52 PM PDT by Antoninus (Attention GOP---Rule 4: See Rules 1 and 3. Rule 5: NO FOLEYS!)
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To: donmeaker
I rather think that Peter was a myth.

Personally I think that Julius Caesar was a myth. Makes about as much sense as your statement.
37 posted on 10/09/2006 5:54:01 PM PDT by Antoninus (Attention GOP---Rule 4: See Rules 1 and 3. Rule 5: NO FOLEYS!)
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To: donmeaker
Constantinius had reasons for moving his capital away from Rome, the Romans being part of that.

Make that NO part of it. Constantine took many of the oldest Roman families with him to Byzantium. He moved the capital to Byzantium for military and economic reason, not religious ones. Rome was extremely difficult to defend absent a large army and was not a port city which made reprovisioning it very difficult in the event of a siege. Furthermore, it was far distant from the major theaters of conflict at the time, which were Persia and the Rhine/Danube frontier. Thus, the eastern Roman capital became Byzantium, and the Western Roman capital eventually became Ravenna.
38 posted on 10/09/2006 5:57:45 PM PDT by Antoninus (Attention GOP---Rule 4: See Rules 1 and 3. Rule 5: NO FOLEYS!)
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To: donmeaker
I'm sorry, but your source is misinformed. Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Eusebius, Irenaeus, all refer repeatedly to the primacy of Peter and of the See of Rome, within 50-100 years after the Resurrection.

. . . BTW, you keep changing the criteria - moving the target. You are the one who started with the 4th century, now you're down to the first century A.D. . . Our Saviour's death and resurrection didn't occur until half way through that century. That tells me you lack confidence in your sources . . . and that lack of confidence is well founded.

39 posted on 10/09/2006 6:48:43 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Mike Fieschko; leilani

I wish I were familiar enough with what's inside the Vatican City walls to make an educated guess!! *sigh*


40 posted on 10/09/2006 6:52:51 PM PDT by samiam1972 (Live simply so that others may simply live!)
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To: fortheDeclaration
Amen. My husband was just saying the same thing. The exact same thing.
41 posted on 10/09/2006 6:54:01 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: AnAmericanMother

or it would imply that I don't have infinite amounts of time, and decided to begin with the first Century and work out from there.


42 posted on 10/09/2006 7:13:56 PM PDT by donmeaker (If the sky don't say "Surrender Dorothy!" then my ex wife is out of town.)
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To: donmeaker
Go read the Early Church Fathers and get back with me.

You can't have read any of the early works and seriously hold this view.

43 posted on 10/09/2006 8:05:52 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: NYer

BEAUTIFUL! :)


44 posted on 10/09/2006 8:21:17 PM PDT by cgk (I don't see myself as a conservative. I see myself as a religious, right-wing, wacko extremist.)
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To: AnAmericanMother

Would you do me the great favor and tell me the names of one or two of the early Christian writers who name Peter as Pope or Bishop of Rome?

That would save me the trouble of hunting through everyone to convince myself of a negative, and then I would find that I had missed one.


45 posted on 10/09/2006 8:35:09 PM PDT by donmeaker (If the sky don't say "Surrender Dorothy!" then my ex wife is out of town.)
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To: donmeaker
I already gave you the names. Here are some of the references:

St. Clement, a disciple of the Apostles, who, after Linus and Anacletus, succeeded St. Peter as the fourth in the list of popes. In his "Epistle to the Corinthians", written in A.D. 95 or 96, he bids them receive back the bishops whom a turbulent faction among them had expelled. "If any man", he says, "should be disobedient unto the words spoken by God through us, let them understand that they will entangle themselves in no slight transgression and danger" (Ep. 59). Moreover, he bids them "render obedience unto the things written by us through the Holy Spirit".

St. Ignatius of Antioch, ca. 107 A.D., in the opening of his letter to the Roman Church, refers to its presiding over all other Churches.

St. Irenaeus, a disciple of St. Polycarp, who had been appointed Bishop of Smyrna by St. John, in "Adversus Haereses" (3:3:2), cites the Apostolic tradition faithfully preserved by the Church from the twelve Apostles. He notes that the See of Rome is preeminent because of its descent from St. Paul and St. Peter.

When we get on into the 2nd and early 3rd century, the references to the primacy of Peter are so numerous (Tertullian, St. Cyprian, St. Dionysius of Alexandria, etc.) that there's no point in contesting it.

46 posted on 10/09/2006 8:46:54 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Claud

I'm an agnostic who has no dog in this hunt, but the comments weren't that Peter wasn't the head of the church in Rome, but that he wasn't considered the head of the movement after the death of Jesus.

As an agnostic, but a historian, I'm always open to new scholarship on the historical proofs of religion. I recently read "the Jesus Dynasty" which has some very interesting scholarship. Here are some excerpts found at:
http://www.jesusdynasty.com/Exerpts-from-James-Tabors-Jesus-Dynasty.html

Jesus' successors and legacy:

"Although the followers of Jesus reshaped themselves under the new leadership of James, and eventually returned to Jerusalem, there might well have been a period in which they retreated to Galilee in order to sort things out, and that is just what these gospel traditions appear to reflect. If that was the case then the more idealized account of the Jesus movement in the early chapters of the book of Acts is Luke' s attempt to recast things in a more triumphant way." (p. 238)

"There are two completely separate and distinct 'Christianities' embedded in the New Testament. One is quite familiar and became the version of the Christian faith known to billions over the past two millennia. Its main proponent was the apostle Paul. The other has been largely forgotten and by the turn of the 1st century A.D. had been effectively marginalized and suppressed by the other." (p. 259)

"The Nazarene movement, led by James, Peter, and John, was by any historical definition a Messianic Movement within Judaism. Even the term 'Jewish-Christianity,' though perhaps useful as a description of the original followers of Jesus, is really a misnomer since they never considered themselves anything but faithful Jews. In that sense early Christianity is Jewish." (p. 264)

"I would go so far as to say that the New Testament itself is primarily a literary legacy of the apostle Paul." (p. 270)

"There is no evidence that James worshipped his brother or considered him divine." (p. 280)

"...[W]hat we can know, with some certainty, is that the royal family of Jesus, including the children and grandchildren of his brothers and sisters, were honored by the early Christians well into the 2nd century A.D., while at the same time they were watched and hunted down by the highest levels of the Roman government in Palestine." (p. 290)


47 posted on 10/09/2006 9:40:43 PM PDT by wildbill
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To: Mike Fieschko; NYer; kstewskis

Thanks!


48 posted on 10/09/2006 10:16:15 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (If I had a nut allergy, I'd be outta here. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
My husband was just saying the same thing. The exact same thing

Great minds think alike :>)

49 posted on 10/09/2006 10:39:13 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth? (Gal.4:16))
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To: fortheDeclaration

Are you saying archeology is uninteresting or not useful, or...?


50 posted on 10/10/2006 1:18:54 AM PDT by D-fendr
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