Posted on 03/18/2009 4:12:59 AM PDT by Colofornian
It's been an unusual few weeks where LDS beliefs on a variety of topics have emerged in the news. These include the value of missionary work on young men's maturity, service, fasting, happiness and stem cell research. Perhaps this is good news...
There have been a number of recent stories about where different religions stand on stem cell research. Mormons, particularly, Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, have been the focus of news stories about how religious beliefs define the issue. This comes as members of the Georgia legislature are considering a measure that would define "a living in vitro human embryo is a biological human being." Atlanta Journal-Constitution columnist Jay Bookman wrote:
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints likewise takes no definitive view of when the embryo or fetus acquires a soul, although some Mormons set it at the moment the embryo attaches itself to the womb. That explains why U.S. Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah, ordinarily a strong social conservative, can also be a strong advocate of embryonic stem-cell research. "
(Excerpt) Read more at mormontimes.com ...
Let me get this straight: Lds think man has been...
(1) as eternal as its god – that “intelligences” self-exist from eternity past (LDS Doctrine & Covenants 93:29,33).
(2) Then somehow these intelligences, who were beginningless, had “beginnings” as spirit babies of a god & goddess in some “pre-existence.”
(3) Then the spirit baby fully matured in the “pre-existence.”
(4) Then it came to pass that this spirit baby passed down an earthly birth canal. This time to a second set of parents (humans on earth).
(5) Oh. But the LDS general authorities, according to their own complex belief system, conclude that it ”takes no definitive view of when...” this “intelligence-baby spirit-fully matured spirit-now-embryo" has ”acquired a soul.”
Oh. Just Oh.
(If these entities "birthed" in heaven have no soul, what are they?)
An intellectual conundrum.
“LDS Beliefs in Focus”
Oh. I beliefs in Jesus.
:)
Hum, come to think about it if they did the former I bet they would not need the latter since upon actually seeing what they had bought into they would leave the church...
And how would they know that. Sounds like some heehawing to me.
And how would they know that. Sounds like some heehawing to me. [wolfcreek]
Good catch.
And what makes that line even stranger
-- the line from this column that ...some Mormons set it [ensoulment] at the moment the embryo attaches itself to the womb...
...is the juxtaposition that LDS general authorities ”take no definitive view of when...” entities they describe as an “intelligence-baby spirit-fully matured spirit-now-embryo" has ”acquired a soul.”
So here we have LDS "prophets" and "apostles" doing spiritual cartwheels for years to have to avoid stating when they think intelligences-baby spirits-embryos acquire souls...yet many of their grassroots members think the point of ensoulment is embryo attachment in the womb? What? Don't these grassroots Mormons think pre-existent spirits in heaven or Kolob -- were they to exist then -- have souls?
This takes strange beliefs and makes them even stranger than strange.
++++++++++
You have done a good job of misdirecting folks with your questions.
And you were able to do it by asking misleading questions instead of saying this is your belief.
Do you believe the way your questions portray the life before this life is what the LDS Church teaches?
Why don’t you take the time to set him straight if he is misinformed about the LDS Church’s belief in eternity. Go ahead - you have the forum for it, use it.
Nicely stated.
How hard is this to do if you are right?
So when does life begin?
+++++++++++++++++++
This has been done often, and it will be done again.
And misleading stuff keeps being re-posted.
I am now just exposing the way ya’ll handle the evidences and let others decide if ya’ll are a good spokesman for the Gospel.
Empty handed yet again huh?
Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit, Father God. The Holy Trinity. This is the true faith. Mormons & LDS as revealed by Mr. J. Smith is simply a man-god constructed cult. Cult. again.. cult.
Am I wrong in thinking that mormons believe if a baby is aborted, the spirit of the dead child just goes back to the celestrial nursery and into another baby ???
How so?
++++++++++++++++++
You changed the focus of what I asked Colofornian about.
Did you know you were doing that?
OK, since you highlighted #2...(2) Then somehow these intelligences, who were beginningless, had “beginnings” as spirit babies of a god & goddess in some “pre-existence.” -- you somehow believe I am misrepresenting something here...
So which part gave you heartburn...uh, no not the best choice of words, for that would be a burning in the bosom...uh, which word or phrase didn't sit well with you...?
...eternal intelligences?
...beginninglessness?
..."spirit babies"?
...divine parentage?
..."pre-existence"
You know, ALL of these are Mormon words and/or concepts talked about by Mormons. "Beginninglessness" is less conversed about by them -- but it's still discussed among LDS.
So until you get specific on your accusation, I'll forge ahead to some of first sources for some of these:
Mormon Doctrine & Covenants 93:29,33: Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be...For man is spirit. The elements are eternal...The spirit of man is not a created being; it existed from eternity, and will exist to eternity. Anything created cannot be eternal... (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1938, p. 158)
(As you read the following, keep in mind that "spirits"=the pre-existent spirits of mankind): "The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself...I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it had a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal [co-eternal] with our Father in heaven...if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house-tops that God never had the power to created the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself. Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptable of enlargement. The first principles of man are self-existent with God." (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 353-354)
So as you can see that according to D&C 93...
...man is as eternal as the Mormon god...
...Intelligences had no original creation--being "not created or made"...
...Elements are also eternal...
So, while a number of Book of Mormon & D&C passages reference Christ as the "Creator," and LDS call Him as such, Joseph Smith taught that the intelligences & elements & spirits were eternal & had no real Creator (as in created-from-nothing) other than one who "organized" them. (Smith said elsewhere that earth was "organized" by God).
Bottom line: For LDS, the intelligences & elements & spirit creatures are as eternal (as in eternity past) as Jesus Christ is.
Now does that satisfy you, Fred? (Or are you yet another LDS who accused me of misquoting something -- like Rameumptom did last week -- to which I provided firsthand documentation...and then curiously didn't hear back from him on that particular again...mighty curious etiquette among LDS, I might add...to make a false accusation & then ne'er apologize for it...not very becoming of future gods or present gods-in-embryo).
Are you are able to answer the question?
My post has zero zippo nada to do with another poster, it has to do with my question.
To not confuse you I'll post it again: So quoting (by links, C/P and personal experience) directly from your (ldsers) writings and leaders is mishandling evidence? How so?
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