Sola Fide; Do Calvinists Actually Read the Christian Bible?

Self | 27 Feb 2011 | Natural Law

[Cronos]

Good works do not mean one merits eternal life.

Correct, that is the Catholic position.

[Cronos]

As explained in post above -- our salvation is from Christ's sacrifice only. It is God's grace that saves us, we cannot save ourselves, that is Church teaching since Apostolic times.

Our works are just following God's words to "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Mt 16:24) and our works are our following scripture which tells us that we must work out our own salvation (which does not mean we can save ourselves, yet points out that we can lose the freely granted grace of Salvation that Jesus Christ gave us by His sacrifice on the Cross)

[Cronos]

Err. RR, BB, no one says we can work out our salvation without God's grace.

As explained in post above -- our salvation is from Christ's sacrifice only. It is God's grace that saves us, we cannot save ourselves, that is Church teaching since Apostolic times.

Our works are just following God's words to "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Mt 16:24) and our works are our following scripture which tells us that we must work out our own salvation (which does not mean we can save ourselves, yet points out that we can lose the freely granted grace of Salvation that Jesus Christ gave us by His sacrifice on the Cross)

[Cronos]

There are better fish to fry

Good point -- Dr. E, Gamecock, AM, here are some very sensible words from ckilmer

[circlecity]

Did Augustine actually read the Bible? Because Augustine’s position on faith and salvation is the exact same as Calvin’s. In fact Augustine is the primary source, along with scripture, cited by Calvin as authority for his position.

[Cvengr]

Ahhh,..the verse right before might most favorite verse in the Bible, John 3:17,..because it doesn’t begin with “Except...” 0;^)

[Cronos]

Intolerance? That's in the following posts

• By a Calvinist OPCI may THINK you are a corrupt reprobate who will never understand the word of God and thus be lost in the strong delusions God has sent you
• Rome’s fruit is bitter because it leads men away from Christ
• ...is a property management company run by pederasts masquerading as men of God.

And those are just a few examples of intolerance. Yet, I've not seen you saying anything about these marvellous examples of intolerance. Why?

[Cvengr]

If we cannot do anything to save ourselves, we also cannot do anything to lose what He gives us in salvation.

[ravenwolf]

I am not sure what is meant by Calvinists and the Christian Bible, i have read several different versions and they pretty much bring the same message, except a word changed here and there in the new Bibles for the purpose of changing a whole concept of the meaning.

I read the K.J.V. because it is easier for me to get my own idea of the meaning, for instance if one word is changed it can make the surrounding scripture seem useless.

The Christian Bible? which one are we talking about? the one i read plainly says faith with out works is dead and it also says the works of the law can not save us.

We are saved by his grace through faith as were the apostles, most of them gave their lives for Christ.

How many our fathers or hail marys does it take to be saved? how many amens do you have to do to be saved?

I think we either have to live for Christ or die for him to be saved, those who live for him would not pass up some one in need of help and proceed on their way to church.

They would not get on a jury and judge some one else to death for something they may have done themselves.

They certainly would not scorn some one for drinking wine or smoking a cigarette.

So it seems to me there are very few people who are living for Christ, but God knows our hearts and he knows what we need.

Remember,? he said many shall be called, but few will be chosen, he also said that he will raise the believers at the last day, not before tribulations, if we are his we most likely will die at the hands of the end time beast.

Revelation 6:9-11 (King James Version)

9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

matt 16
24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Are we the brethren that they are waiting for?

[Diamond]

Borrowing from Hinduism many fringe Calvinists actually practice a form of the Brahiminst caste system in which they profess that their own Salvation was secure from the beginning of time and no obligation exists toward the less fortunate and needy because God rejected their election from the beginning of time.

That must be why the Calvinists of the Mayflower Compact covenanted together the first written Constitution in America - "for the Glory of God and the advancement of the Christian religion." </sarcasm>

[Cronos]

Actually, one does not follow from the other.

Let's see this -- we both agree that it is Christ's sacrifice on the cross that grants us salvation. That is Church teaching.

We believe this was sufficient for us salvation and nothing we can do can provide our salvation if Christ's sacrifice did not happen

Yet, we also know that:

1. Scripture tells us in Eze 33:12-16 that people can lose their salvation
2. Scripture tells us that we must work out our own salvation
3. Christ Himself told us "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Mt 16:24)

Keeping this in mind, we see that we must do the minimum of accepting Christ's freely given salvation. If we do not accept this, we do not get saved.

And yet, vines can be pruned and cast away, so we can lose our God-given salvation

And yet pruned vines can also be grafted back in, because we have a forgiving, loving God.

[Cronos]

Actually, no. Augustine NEVER stated the unbiblical double-predestination. He firmly disbelieved the concept that God could pre-damn people to hell

You can read Augustine's Against Faustus where he states

"nothing could have been devised more likely to instruct and benefit the pious reader of sacred Scripture than that, besides describing praiseworthy characters as examples, and blameworthy characters as warnings, it should also narrate cases where good men have gone back and fallen into evil, whether they are restored to the right path or continue irreclaimable; and also where bad men have changed, and have attained to goodness, whether they persevere in it or relapse into evil; in order that the righteous may be not lifted up in the pride of security, nor the wicked hardened in despair of cure"

Not only did Augustine not believe like Calvin believed that all who are ever saved are predestined to remain in grace, he too rejected their belief in double-predestination and Augustine devoutly believed in the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

This is validated in a reading of Ezekiel 33:12

12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’

13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done.

14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die.

16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.

[Cronos]

no one says we can work out our salvation without God's grace.

our salvation is from Christ's sacrifice only. It is God's grace that saves us, we cannot save ourselves, that is Church teaching since Apostolic times.

Our works are just following God's words to "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Mt 16:24) and our works are our following scripture which tells us that we must work out our own salvation (which does not mean we can save ourselves, yet points out that we can lose the freely granted grace of Salvation that Jesus Christ gave us by His sacrifice on the Cross)

The Church has always taught that we are saved by God's grace -- that is the initial grace that allows us to accept His salvation.

Yet scripture says that we must work out our own salvation and we know from Ezekiel 33:12-16 that we can lose our salvation

So let's put it together -- Christ's sacrifice is what saves us. We must accept this salvation. Yet we can lose it (Eze 33) and scripture tells us to work out our own salvation and that salvation is not by faith alone. So that means we must work to accept this salvation provided by Christ

If we do just works and have no faith, we are not saved. If we do just works and do not accept the salvation of Christ, i.e. believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and God and Savior and died for us, we are not saved.

Our works cannot save us -- only Christ can save us -- that is Church teaching

The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit. The Catechism confirms this as

Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men.

Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.

This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.

The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:

Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church

Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith.

"If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Mt 16:24).

[RobRoy]

I don’t want to sound all over the board, but I think this thing is rather hard to precisely articulate. I say that because I agree with your post except for your phrase “work out our own salvation:, though I agree with what follos it in parentheses.

[ravenwolf]

So what IS your objective with this hateful post against a protestant religion?

---

I do not really see that it was a hate post, it just seems to me that he believes that the Calvinist view is to ignore what James says.

Really what salvation is all about is in the Gospels, read the Gospel of Jesus Christ, he says it all, the purpose of the letters written by the apostles were for the setting up of churches, they were for the action of the working members of the church.

Only God can judge our hearts, but the members of the Church was to help the apostles to preach that gospel.

The working members of the Church was people who did not have other responsibilities, most of us have to work and make a living for our families, we can not be members of a Church as it was established, but the Catholic Church itself because of its love for tithes and followed by the Calvinist churches has lost sight of the real objective.

Make every one members and collect tithes from them.

[CynicalBear]

>>Actually, the act proves nothing because those acts are also performed by the non-elect.<<

The non elect believe in their heart and proclaim with their mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord? That’s not possible I don’t think.

[RnMomof7]

I’m not a Calvinist, but I think the idea is that a Christian does good works because he has faith and is already saved and would therefore want to do them, and is not doing good works to earn the approval of God in order to merit salvation.

Exactly...whatever we do we do for the glory of God.. not merit

What will you have? Wages or gift? Sin as employer or God as benefactor? Earned eternal death or free eternal life?..........( Rom. 6:23)

[Cronos]

Thank you RR -- however, this is not my words, but from the Bible and echoed in the catechim. These are Church teachings. We are told in Phil 2:12 to 12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Remember also Matt 10:22

22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

matt 24:13

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:13

13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

So clearly we must "endure" in our Faith to the end, not reject our God-given salvation

Also, we are told to have belief
Mark 16:16

16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

Luke 13:3

3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Rom. 10:9

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:13

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

yet Matt. 7:21

Not every one who says to me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

John 3:3

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

and finally 1 Pet. 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

[CynicalBear]

>>The Church has always taught that we are saved by God's grace -- that is the initial grace that allows us to accept His salvation.<< There’s not an organized religion out there, that I have found, that hasn’t mucked up the true gospel of Jesus in one form or another.

“believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved-and your house.”

The minute you add to that or distort that simple message in any way you risk the wrath of God. Salvation is a simple message. No one organized religion can save you nor can they assure your salvation. No membership in an organized religion is necessary.

I don’t care what the “Church” teaches. Follow the “Church” if you like. Follow some guy or mystic if you want. I’ll continue to trust Jesus words that there is only one way to the Father and life eternal with Him.

[Cronos]

Err... so you don’t believe that “ we are saved by God’s grace”?