Posted on 03/16/2012 11:30:32 AM PDT by Monorprise
All other things being equal where would religious marriage would begin: 1: First Sexual encounter (between parties).
2: First conception of a child (between parent parties).
3: First child birth (between parents parties).
4: Religious ceremony at the Church.
5: State Government Sanction.
6: Mutual personal commitment between the parties?
-------------------------------------------------
I realize Marriage involves all of theses things. But supposing that they could happen out of order which one would start the marriage in the eyes of God, science, and most of all your personal opinion?
“Is she bound to her rapist (husband) in the Lord’s eyes?”
Under the Old Covenant, the punishment for rape was death, but the punishment for adultery was also death. So, if the accusation of rape was made, and it had occurred in the city, but no witnesses would swear that they heard the woman raise a commotion, both would be put to death, as it was assumed the woman was committing adultery and lying about the rape to avoid death. If it happened in the country, only the man would be put to death, since there was not an assumption that anyone would be near enough to hear her cries.
Oh, I should mention those rules were specifically about virgins who were betrothed. If she were not bethrothed, then the man was bound to marry her, unless her father refused. It says he must do this because he “has humbled” the woman, so I think because she would not likely find another husband, since she was not a virgin. Back then, if you were not a virgin, unless you were a widow, you were basically seen as a prostitute and not worthy of marriage.
This teaching on divorce by Jesus is recounted in Matthew 5, Matthew 19, Mark 10, and Luke 16. It is further clarified in 1 Corinthian 7. Only in one of those does is state specific conditions for a divorce. In Malachi 2 it says the Lord "hates divorce".
Notice that in all of those there is a prohibition against a divorced person remarrying and against marrying a divorced person. The message is pretty clear.
6: Mutual personal commitment between the parties?
This was mis-worded in my opinion. The vows in a Catholic marriage are when the covenental relationship begins.
I would have worded that “The vows of promised covenant with one another during the Mass.”
It’s good to look at the following 3 passages together:
Genesis 2: 24Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall BECOME ONE FLESH.
Matthew 19:5 ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall BECOME ONE FLESH’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.
1 Corinthians 6 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute BECOMES ONE BODY WITH HER? For, as it is written,“The two will BECOME ONE FLESH.
It certainly seems that the sexual act creates the one flesh - the permanent relationship. The only question there is, is this done in the correct, God-honouring way? And can an incorrect relationship be subsequently corrected?
A few years ago, I was organist at a wedding for a woman who had been living with a man for over 20 years. She had cancer and during that time had become closely involved with someone from my local church who ran one of the women’s Bible studies. She became a Christian and decided that she wanted to make things right with God in terms of her relationship, hence the wedding and the vows before God, also as a witness to her mostly non-Christian friends and colleagues. I played the organ at her memorial service about 3 months later. It would seem to me that they were one flesh for life right from the start of the relationship, but then turned it into a right relationship for those last few months.
Regarding the question of rape also mentioned in one of the posts, the punishment for rape was death thus freeing the woman concerned from the “until death” relationship.
The one flesh enables sexual union. Animals and fornicators are capable of are capable of raw sex.
We're old enough to remember when things made sense.
Now,... homosexual "marriage"? It's nonsensical. The law is a contrivance built on air. Yet its effects are disastrous. Here in MA, homosexuals must be allowed to adopt children. Catholic Charities was forced to close its adoption centers. In schools, homosexual "marriage" must be portrayed in school textbooks as equivalent to true marriage.
God help us.
Yeah - Catholics include the ceremony (oaths) and consummation: your question #1.... the initial sexual encounter.
Interesting. Also in those days I guess it was kinda normal for a girl as young as 12 to be married if the father decided he wanted to give her away.
You have a black and white view towards divorce when in fact it is a gray area.
Everyone has an obligation to themselves and their future children to thoroughly check out their future spouse to see if they have a proper values; if they have a history of cheating and abuse; or any addictions or personality issues.
I agree 100% but it is not 100% fullproof. Some people are master hiders and their spouse does not see the true them until after marriage. People also change, many times years after the marriage took place. My best friend who I have known since 5th grade was arrested for spousal abuse last fall. I have never seen this in him even when we double dated and I know his past gf's and there was never any indication he did stuff like this. A year and a half ago his wife came around with a broken arm and said they were "wrestling" on the ground and everyone believed it. Well last fall she was running down the street at 1:30 am with a broken jaw and nose. I have never seen this in my best friend and he goes to church nearly every week. BTW his dad is very religious and gives the opening prayer at the local Tea Party rally-they are avery good family.
Look at all the pastors who have been caught cheating, were found to have gay lovers etc. Where their spouses doing a crappy job of vetting their partners?
If your daughter or grandaughter were in a marriage where they literally where having the shiite beat out of them would you not tell them to leave the abusive husband-what if your gaughter or grandaughter was in a hospital bed with a broken jaw and a smashed nose? And would you tell them they had to be a lone the rest of their lives and their next marriage(to a good man) was not kosher in God's eyes. If so I really pity them.
The Loving God I know would never want a spouse to be in a terrible marriage where that person was terrorized or beat up.
And don't tell they should work things out. Any women who is beat by her husband needs to leave asap and never look back. There is no excuse for that behavior.
Yes, too many families have been broken and too many children damaged and shaped by divorce and remarriage.
I agree 100%.
Your views are why people my generation are leaving the Catholic church in droves and to be honest you have a perverse view if not just plain wicked of this matter.
No sane person would have their daughter stay in a abusive relationship.
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Ok, I missed the first part about divorce.
So I ask you again, if your daughter or granddaughter was beaten to an inch of her life and she was divorced you would doom her to a life of being alone the rest of her life??
No future grandkids in the picture for you to enjoy?
God does not want that.
It is not about what I like or want, or even what the majority of American Catholics believe. God is very clear in what He has said about divorce and remarriage.
Did God actually say that or was that a translation by men in the 2nd or 3rd century? I will be honest I'm not that familiar with the Bible, (though I do believe in God very much) but is there not passages in the Old Testament about killing your wayward daughters etc? No Christian today would do that.
I said before the God I know who is a loving God. I also want to add he is a just God and a reasonable God. God would never condemn a person to a lifetime of loneliness because their spouse did something stupid that was out of their control.
My GF's ex left her for another women he met at his work after 12 years of marriage. My GF is one of the most caring, unselfish and loving person I have ever met. To say that God does not want her to get remarried and she would be condemned by HIM for doing so is not something God would ever condemn.
Since the dialog regarding Jesus redefining the conditions of divorce appear in multiple Gospels and not just in a single verse I would say that God actually said that.
"but is there not passages in the Old Testament about killing your wayward daughters etc?"
Although Jesus did not abolish the Old Testament laws He did fulfill them and gave us in their place a New and Everlasting Covenant. The dialog surrounding divorce and remarriage is but one example.
The world is full of the relativistic notion that "as long as I am a good person" the doctrines and dogma's of the Church or any church do not really matter. The problem is who determines what is good or god for you and society. Are you confident that actions that may benefit the individual but ultimately do harm to society in general are the manifest actions of a "good person"? Jesus put a great deal of emphasis on the importance and integrity of marriage. Modern society and individual bad judgments do not justify diminishing it.
Adultery on her former husband’s part and ?? on your part.
A person who has been married, and even though divorced, commits adultery in the eyes of the Catholic Church.
A person who has been married, and even though divorced, commits adultery in the eyes of the Catholic Church.
Oops, I didn’t finish that — when they remarry they commit adultery.
Interesting phrase. Does it have anything to do with God?
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