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Angry cries of America's 'outsourced' middle class
The Arizona Republic ^ | 03.09.04 | E.J. Montini

Posted on 03/09/2004 5:35:30 PM PST by Beck_isright

Edited on 05/07/2004 5:22:19 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Among those who apparently didn't listen to the 43-year-old unemployed woman whose recorded message was posted online last week by The Republic were Arizona's Jon Kyl and John McCain, along with 24 of their Senate colleagues, all of them collecting fat government paychecks.


(Excerpt) Read more at azcentral.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: economy; election; outsourcing; unemployment
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To: Loser
"i just want a piece of cake"

Chocolate? Or Mexican salsa flavor?
661 posted on 03/11/2004 10:46:51 AM PST by Beck_isright ("I did not have sexual relations with that woman" - (Fill in name of Democrat here))
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To: raloxk
That person's worldview is askew. That attitude will do more to keep him down than anything outsourcing or a president could do to him.

The truth is that he is the most important person in determining what direction his life is heading. It's easier to pass the blame on a boss, a company, the president, etc.

It's harder to made tough decisions, sacrifice, maybe develop some new job skills, and take charge of your life.

I am a peak performance coach for graduate students - the second I hear someone whine about a grading curve, teachers playing favorites, etc, I know there are a at risj of being a terminally 'c' student, at least until they fix their beleif system.
662 posted on 03/11/2004 10:50:39 AM PST by HitmanLV (I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.)
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To: familyofman
"If an out-sourced, unemployed man cries in the forrest - does anyone hear the sound?"

So far? Uh, nope...
663 posted on 03/11/2004 10:51:25 AM PST by Beck_isright ("I did not have sexual relations with that woman" - (Fill in name of Democrat here))
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To: k2blader
"There is NO excuse for any able bodied American to be sitting on their butts crying about "outsourcing".

Agreed.

A "good job" is not a right."


I actually agree with the Wall Street Clerk (Texasforever) on this point. However should any able bodied American be forced to work for $2.50 per hour like the Mexicans because the immigration laws are not enforced? Just a philosophical/reality question...
664 posted on 03/11/2004 10:53:27 AM PST by Beck_isright ("I did not have sexual relations with that woman" - (Fill in name of Democrat here))
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To: _Jim; Arthalion
"Perhaps we are overdue for embracing the UN and its socialistic agenda ..."

Why not? That's what W is doing....
665 posted on 03/11/2004 10:54:33 AM PST by Beck_isright ("I did not have sexual relations with that woman" - (Fill in name of Democrat here))
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To: Beck_isright
Why not? That's what W is doing....

Don't be stupid - oh, sorry, too late ...

666 posted on 03/11/2004 10:59:29 AM PST by _Jim ( <--- Ann C. and Rush L. speak on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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To: lelio
"All one has to do is look to England's and France's fall from world powers thinking that they can maintain their wealth through offshoring their industries to the new world or to third worlds. This shell game is good for a couple of years but eventually the new economies either realize they're better off without you (the US to England) or just want you the hell out of the country (Vietnam to France).

Exactly, but there's one key difference. Instead of a democracy taking over for france and England (USA), a communist dictatorship (China) or a socialist hell hole (India) will take over for us. Imagine the great protectors of freedom "the chinese" running the world instead of us.

667 posted on 03/11/2004 11:04:39 AM PST by chronotrigger (protectionism=patriotism)
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To: Jorge
"But now 5.6% unemployment is somehow a horrible disaster created by Bush."

It's only 5.6% because people have stopped looking for work. The real unemployment rate is closer to 10%.

668 posted on 03/11/2004 11:09:52 AM PST by chronotrigger (protectionism=patriotism)
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To: lentulusgracchus
Small companies, OTOH, have no benefits, no retirement, people work just as hard and long hours for less money, or longer hours for the same money, and there's no upside or participation. The proprietor owns the company, and that's it.

I work for a small company (about a 100 people) and they have benefits: 401K (no matching though), Good healthcare (additional family members are extra), a short commute. Not all small businesses are sole properiterships, but I see your point. There is plenty of upside for good employees though:

1) Access to the highest levels of the company. I go right to the top to ask for a raise bonus etc. There is no middle management to defer to.

2) Less bureaucracy. If you need something you something to make your job easier or the company more money you go right to the top. See number 1.

3) More flexible hours.

4) More money. Small companies know who butters their bread, and are very willing to compensate valuable employees. I make good money as programmer at a small company even when compared to programmers at large companies. (not to mention I still have a job) I make my companies world go round, and the people in charge of the compensation recognize this and reward me. How does this work at a big company?

5) When things get tight the company will decide who to retain based on their value to the company, and they decision makers at the company will have a good idea who that is. In a small company there the principle players have good job security. In a big company it's more of a crap shoot with nameless faceless manager you have never met before who barely know what you do deciding your fate. Small companies consider some employees nearly irreplacable. Everyone is replacable at a big company. I guess this is the biggest reason I prefer to work for a small company.

669 posted on 03/11/2004 12:44:09 PM PST by Smogger
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To: _Jim
I think we have here another case of Luddite-ism and a paranoia of all things technological

Umm...no. I'm a computer programmer with quite a bit of experience in embedded programming and robotics, so RFID technology isn't far removed from what I do every day and I have personally put hundreds of people out of work through automation. I'm not afraid of technology, I just can't stand it when people misrepresent it.

Many people today seem insistent on pushing the idea that RFID will be the next "dotcom". It will solve our employment woes, spawn new industries, and give all these hard luck programmers something to do again. It's a nice idea, but it's a lie.

RFID will change the way we do many things. It will eliminate the "checker" from the supermarket and superstore, it will relegate "swipe" credit cards to the same technological dustbin as vinyl and 8-tracks, it will enhance security by tagging us with electronic ID's and allowing keyless electronic locks...it may even eliminate car theft one day. But RFID, when it comes right down to it, isn't any particularly great leap forward and doesn't offer anything NEW to our world. It's just a tiny radio transmitter transmitting a unique ID. That tiny transmitter will allow greater efficiencies in the way we do things now, but in order to realize those efficiencies it HAS to be implemented with as few people as possible.

I personally look forward to RFID and the advantages it will bring, but you're fooling yourself if you don't think that it's going to hurt a LOT of people. The checkout clerk is the buggywhip maker of today...the job is being replaced by advancing technology. That is a good thing, but we NEED to make sure that there is something for those buggywhip makers to do after their jobs go away. Why? Because they VOTE. This isn't the 1800's anymore, and if you put that many people out of work (RFID could eventually eliminate more than a million jobs nationwide) there WILL be political repercussions.
670 posted on 03/11/2004 1:22:05 PM PST by Arthalion
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To: k2blader
Keep in mind your social security check is not a right either. Don't sit around blabbering when you're 80 years old that someone isn't handing you a social security check --- that was only for the days of manufacturing --- when America produced and it's retired class could live well. That's over, our retirement has been outsourced along with the jobs.
671 posted on 03/11/2004 5:49:37 PM PST by FITZ
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To: Arthalion
I think you missed the whole point of my last post; I don't expect any amount of additional time spent on you will change that either ...

'Luddite-ism' manifests itself in any number of ways, and I think that socialists *rarely* see themselves as such either. I think the core to your perspective likes more along these two lines more than you think ...

Simple 'job preservation' is dead end. Most people know that; you CAN'T mandate the pace at which technology develops ... I've been involved in more technology than most people can shake a stick at - and in more depth than I'll ever be able to convey *or* explain to someone who's only been down one particular narrow 'avenue' of today's technological world ...

672 posted on 03/11/2004 6:51:47 PM PST by _Jim ( <--- Ann C. and Rush L. speak on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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To: Jorge
How can people who are out of work move in with their aging parents, and take care of them? By eating out of garbage cans? Rob banks?

Easy. Sick, old people get social security, pensions, sometimes even disability payments. Many of them have equity in their homes and have savings. If the choice is between spending $50,000 a year on a nursing home, or having a relative take care of you, many will prefer the relative, even if it means supporting them for a time.

So these 8.2 million people in the work force who've can't find work and have dropped off the unemployment roles have all moved back in with their parents or are letting their wives support them.

Some of them probably have become stay-at-home mothers as well. The net result is that peoples' standards of living seriously decline. If they decline too much around November 2004, it *will* become a factor in this election.

673 posted on 03/11/2004 7:55:36 PM PST by valkyrieanne
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To: bvw
Borrowing is not prosperity. We are still the richest, free-est and most powerful nation ever. But we have taken on a bad habit, and only by begging from tomorrow are we paying today's bills.

Exactly. In a way, being a 40 year old woman and moving back in with ones' 70 year old parents is a form of "borrowing" against the future too. Sooner or later all that old person wealth is going to get spent, and what then? What are the *children* of the 40-50 year olds (dependent on aging parents) supposed to do? What is *their* standard of living going to be like? On the level of Mexico? That's where it's heading.

674 posted on 03/11/2004 8:00:32 PM PST by valkyrieanne
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To: valkyrieanne
"So these 8.2 million people in the work force who've can't find work and have dropped off the unemployment roles have all moved back in with their parents or are letting their wives support them."

Some of them probably have become stay-at-home mothers as well. The net result is that peoples' standards of living seriously decline. If they decline too much around November 2004, it *will* become a factor in this election.

Only problem with this is that "peoples' standards of living" are NOT declining.

Average incomes and benefits are UP...and the economy continues to grow.

675 posted on 03/11/2004 8:07:22 PM PST by Jorge
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To: Smogger
Nice recitation, point well made.

Thanks for the reply.

676 posted on 03/12/2004 5:23:02 AM PST by lentulusgracchus (Et praeterea caeterum censeo, delenda est Carthago. -- M. Porcius Cato)
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To: Jorge
What's cost effective about taking in people with NO INCOMES? You're still paying the entire mortgage, the heating bill but the hot water and electric will go up with more people using them as will the food bills, with the extra person contributing nothing. Remember we were talking about people who have supposedly given up on looking for work and no longer collecting unemployment?

Why is it cost effective? Here's why. In many cities it's $50,000 a year for marginally decent nursing home care.

Many elderly people don't need the full service of a nursing home - they need "assisted living" to help them stay in their homes. "Assisted living" means help with shopping, cleaning, and minor "medical" tasks like administering medicine, checking monitors, etc.

When old people get older and more frail and/or delusional, they may need round-the-clock care. They may need more medical services, like checking IV lines or catheters. Paying for all these services can get phenomenally expensive - one *hour* of a visiting RN's time can cost $100.

For elderly people who don't want to spend themselves down into Medicaid, and who want to remain in their own homes, having a middle-aged child move in with them to provide their "assisted living" or even some medical care *is* very cost-effective, when you consider how expensive the alternative is becoming.

As the numbers of elderly increase rapidly every year, don't expect these costs to go down anytime soon, either.

677 posted on 03/12/2004 6:22:37 AM PST by valkyrieanne
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To: Jorge
Maybe I'll give up working or even looking for a job and just take in "extra" roomates to pay my bills for me. LOL

Yes, I'm sure it sounds funny, but that's exactly what widows used to do in the 19th and even early 20th century, until zoning laws and general litigiousness forced them out. They used to run boarding houses. Everyone benefited: single working people found a cheap room to live in while they saved money, and the widow earned badly-needed cash.

One reason this economy *has* hurt the middle class so sharply is because many of these options of former days (taking in boarders, offering private lessons out of one's home, raising rabbits in the back yard) have been legislated / zoned out of the realm of possibility.

678 posted on 03/12/2004 6:25:28 AM PST by valkyrieanne
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To: CWOJackson
Sometimes the prices at Walmart are cheaper, sometimes they're not? Why does Walmart keep swapping out merchandise whenever I come into the store?

LOL. Actually, I just bought 3 pairs of jeans & 5 T-shirts for my husband from Wal-Mart. The jeans were all made in USA and the T-shirts were USA fabric, assembled in Honduras. At least they weren't made by Chinese slaves...

If you look carefully at Wal-Mart you actually can find a fair amount of made in USA stuff - at least I have.

679 posted on 03/12/2004 6:28:40 AM PST by valkyrieanne
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To: nmh
If you can't bear to part with your IT job then consider moving to China, India, Romania, Russia etc.. to keep it. Keep in mind the standard of living is lower.

My husband worked for a startup (since gone bankrupt) that had much of its hardware designed outsourced in Bangalore. His bosses had spent months in India, and the general report was that Americans working over there on temporary visas "lived like kings." (They were being paid an American salary but living in India.)

But even professionals in India whose salaries are very low by our standards still have a good standard of living over there, because they have such a large class of desperate poor combined with modern technology (appliances, air conditioning, automobiles, etc.) The poor are willing to work as servants, and even middle class Indians have both cheap help at home *and* the fruits of modern technology.

The problem is that India is *protectionist* - they don't let Americans just move there & get a job. They are *protective* of their own Indian citizens and don't want foreign competition. If we truly demanded that they reciprocate in kind (i.e. allowed a *proportionate to population* number of Americans to work there as we allow H-1Bs), you'd see an end to outsourcing. The Indians scream about any attempt on our part to limit H-1Bs, or cut back on outsourcing to India, but they are very protectionist themselves.

680 posted on 03/12/2004 6:34:34 AM PST by valkyrieanne
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