Skip to comments.The scale and nature of Viking settlement in Ireland from Y-chromosome admixture analysis
Posted on 09/10/2006 5:44:28 AM PDT by CobaltBlue
The Vikings (or Norse) played a prominent role in Irish history but, despite this, their genetic legacy in Ireland, which may provide insights into the nature and scale of their immigration, is largely unexplored. Irish surnames, some of which are thought to have Norse roots, are paternally inherited in a similar manner to Y-chromosomes. The correspondence of Scandinavian patrilineal ancestry in a cohort of Irish men bearing surnames of putative Norse origin was examined using both slow mutating unique event polymorphisms and relatively rapidly changing short tandem repeat Y-chromosome markers. Irish and Scandinavian admixture proportions were explored for both systems using six different admixture estimators, allowing a parallel investigation of the impact of method and marker type in Y-chromosome admixture analysis. Admixture proportion estimates in the putative Norse surname group were highly consistent and detected little trace of Scandinavian ancestry. In addition, there is scant evidence of Scandinavian Y-chromosome introgression in a general Irish population sample. Although conclusions are largely dependent on the accurate identification of Norse surnames, the findings are consistent with a relatively small number of Norse settlers (and descendents) migrating to Ireland during the Viking period (ca. AD 8001200) suggesting that Norse colonial settlements might have been largely composed of indigenous Irish. This observation adds to previous genetic studies that point to a flexible Viking settlement approach across North Atlantic Europe.
(Excerpt) Read more at nature.com ...
Identifying Scandinavian y-chromosomes would seem to be the real problem here. For several hundred years the gene-flow was from Ireland to Scandinavia, so a reverse gene-flow from Scandinavia would simply be invisible.
Bjoerndalen, Eftevang, Ingebriktsson, Kjelstrup, Ramsfjell, Skjölsvold, and Ytterhus are some of my Irish friends.
I've heard that the red hair, common in Ireland, is from the Norse. But, now I have to wonder.
From some of the studies I have found on the Internet, it seems that red hair is from the indigenous, Paleolithic population.
Sorry I can't remember the names of the studies/sites.
Many Celts had red hair -- long before the Vikings showed up. Maybe the Vikings brought more blond hair to Ireland?
Are you sure? I thought the "Black Irish" were the original Paleolithic population, and that the red and blond hair came from the Celts.
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The history I've read concerning Vikings in Ireland is that they attacked the coastline but never made inroads into Eire Proper. The genetic makeup reported in this thread seems to indicate this is true.
Moreover, there was expulsions of Norman and Roman colonialism as well. However, the various Irish chronicles talk of Irish colonialism in Wales, Cornish England, and Scotland with a nod toward Irish seafaring expeditions to North America all occurring between circa 400-800 CE..
It would be great to see the true genetic make-up of all humans. I think it would amaze us where our forefathers have been, whether they be Irish, Zulu, Cherokee, Aztec, Roman, Parthian, Mongol, or Jew.
My understanding was that the "Black Irish" were the descendants of those who intermarried with the Spanish that survived the sinking of the Armada off the coast a few hundred years ago.
Thanks for the ping, fanfan!!
"Science in the modern world has many uses; its chief use, however, is to provide long words to cover the errors of the rich. The word "kleptomania" is a vulgar example of what I mean. It is on a par with that strange theory, always advanced when a wealthy or prominent person is in the dock, that exposure is more of a punishment for the rich than for the poor. Of course, the very reverse is the truth. Exposure is more of a punishment for the poor than for the rich. The richer a man is the easier it is for him to be a tramp. The richer a man is the easier it is for him to be popular and generally respected in the Cannibal Islands. But the poorer a man is the more likely it is that he will have to use his past life whenever he wants to get a bed for the night. Honour is a luxury for aristocrats, but it is a necessity for hall-porters. This is a secondary matter, but it is an example of the general proposition I offer-- the proposition that an enormous amount of modern ingenuity is expended on finding defences for the indefensible conduct of the powerful. As I have said above, these defences generally exhibit themselves most emphatically in the form of appeals to physical science. And of all the forms in which science, or pseudo-science, has come to the rescue of the rich and stupid, there is none so singular as the singular invention of the theory of races.
"When a wealthy nation like the English discovers the perfectly patent fact that it is making a ludicrous mess of the government of a poorer nation like the Irish, it pauses for a moment in consternation, and then begins to talk about Celts and Teutons. As far as I can understand the theory, the Irish are Celts and the English are Teutons. Of course, the Irish are not Celts any more than the English are Teutons. I have not followed the ethnological discussion with much energy, but the last scientific conclusion which I read inclined on the whole to the summary that the English were mainly Celtic and the Irish mainly Teutonic. But no man alive, with even the glimmering of a real scientific sense, would ever dream of applying the terms "Celtic" or "Teutonic" to either of them in any positive or useful sense."
"That sort of thing must be left to people who talk about the Anglo-Saxon race, and extend the expression to America. How much of the blood of the Angles and Saxons (whoever they were) there remains in our mixed British, Roman, German, Dane, Norman, and Picard stock is a matter only interesting to wild antiquaries. And how much of that diluted blood can possibly remain in that roaring whirlpool of America into which a cataract of Swedes, Jews, Germans, Irishmen, and Italians is perpetually pouring, is a matter only interesting to lunatics. It would have been wiser for the English governing class to have called upon some other god. All other gods, however weak and warring, at least boast of being constant. But science boasts of being in a flux for ever; boasts of being unstable as water.
"And England and the English governing class never did call on this absurd deity of race until it seemed, for an instant, that they had no other god to call on. All the most genuine Englishmen in history would have yawned or laughed in your face if you had begun to talk about Anglo-Saxons. If you had attempted to substitute the ideal of race for the ideal of nationality, I really do not like to think what they would have said. I certainly should not like to have been the officer of Nelson who suddenly discovered his French blood on the eve of Trafalgar. I should not like to have been the Norfolk or Suffolk gentleman who had to expound to Admiral Blake by what demonstrable ties of genealogy he was irrevocably bound to the Dutch. The truth of the whole matter is very simple. Nationality exists, and has nothing in the world to do with race. Nationality is a thing like a church or a secret society; it is a product of the human soul and will; it is a spiritual product. And there are men in the modern world who would think anything and do anything rather than admit that anything could be a spiritual product.
"A nation, however, as it confronts the modern world, is a purely spiritual product. Sometimes it has been born in independence, like Scotland. Sometimes it has been born in dependence, in subjugation, like Ireland. Sometimes it is a large thing cohering out of many smaller things, like Italy. Sometimes it is a small thing breaking away from larger things, like Poland. But in each and every case its quality is purely spiritual, or, if you will, purely psychological. It is a moment when five men become a sixth man. Every one knows it who has ever founded a club. It is a moment when five places become one place. Every one must know it who has ever had to repel an invasion. Mr. Timothy Healy, the most serious intellect in the present House of Commons, summed up nationality to perfection when he simply called it something for which people will die, As he excellently said in reply to Lord Hugh Cecil, "No one, not even the noble lord, would die for the meridian of Greenwich." And that is the great tribute to its purely psychological character. It is idle to ask why Greenwich should not cohere in this spiritual manner while Athens or Sparta did. It is like asking why a man falls in love with one woman and not with another.
"Now, of this great spiritual coherence, independent of external circumstances, or of race, or of any obvious physical thing, Ireland is the most remarkable example. Rome conquered nations, but Ireland has conquered races. The Norman has gone there and become Irish, the Scotchman has gone there and become Irish, the Spaniard has gone there and become Irish, even the bitter soldier of Cromwell has gone there and become Irish. Ireland, which did not exist even politically, has been stronger than all the races that existed scientifically. The purest Germanic blood, the purest Norman blood, the purest blood of the passionate Scotch patriot, has not been so attractive as a nation without a flag. Ireland, unrecognized and oppressed, has easily absorbed races, as such trifles are easily absorbed. She has easily disposed of physical science, as such superstitions are easily disposed of. Nationality in its weakness has been stronger than ethnology in its strength. Five triumphant races have been absorbed, have been defeated by a defeated nationality.
"This being the true and strange glory of Ireland, it is impossible to hear without impatience of the attempt so constantly made among her modern sympathizers to talk about Celts and Celticism. Who were the Celts? I defy anybody to say. Who are the Irish? I defy any one to be indifferent, or to pretend not to know."
GK Chesterton, Heretics chapter XIII
Actually, I'd heard that "black Irish" was a derogatory term for Italians, who immigrated to the US after the Irish did. A mean reference to their olive complexion and the fact that they were initially as unwelcome here as the Irish were.
I thought many of the Vikings ended up "emigrating" to England/Scotland/Ireland? Better climate, more land, etc.
But then again, I didn't realize until today that there was ever any Spanish settlement of Ireland.
Gene Study Shows Ties Long Veiled in Europe
Source: New York Times
Published: 4-10-01 Author: Nicholas Wade
Posted on 04/10/2001 20:56:13 PDT by Pharmboy
Genetic Survey Reveals Hidden Celts Of England
The Sunday Times (UK) | 12-02-2001 | John Elliott/Tom Robbins
Posted on 12/06/2001 9:35:33 AM EST by blam
Archaeologists Find Celts in Unlikely Spot: Central Turkey (Ellas Go Bragh!?)
The New York Times | December 25, 2001 | JOHN NOBLE WILFORD
Posted on 12/25/2001 3:06:25 PM EST by Pericles
English And Welsh Are Races Apart
BBC | 6-30-2002
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Y Chromosomes Sketch New Outline of British History
NY Times | May 27, 2003 | NICHOLAS WADE
Posted on 05/27/2003 6:49:55 PM EDT by Pharmboy
Y Chromosomes Rewrite British History
Nature | 6-19-2003 | Hannah Hoag
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Full Excavation Of Irish Viking Village?
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London - Red hair may be the genetic legacy of Neanderthals...
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Revealed: The softer, caring side of the marauding Viking
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Irish History Takes a Paternity Test
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Scientists discover most fertile Irish male
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Britons Dedicate Renovated Franklin Home
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40 posted on 01/18/2006 6:30:54 AM EST by Pharmboy
If New York's Irish Claim Nobility, Science May Back Up the Blarney
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Scientist Discover Most Fertile Irish Male
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DNA Test Can Detect Picts' Descendants
The Telegraph (UK) | 8-14-2006 | Auslan Cramb
Posted on 08/14/2006 9:17:14 PM EDT by blam
[and, the first of a number of topics about the Viking invasion-era prayerbook]
Ancient prayerbook found in Irish bog
couriermail.news | July 26, 2006
Posted on 07/25/2006 3:21:17 PM EDT by lunarbicep
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a few more that gave the first few searches the slip:
Baffling Viking Artifacts Found in Cave
Source: FOX News
Published: 15 January 2000 Author: Reuters
Posted on 01/15/2000 13:51:01 PST by advocate10
Ancient Site in Newfoundland Offers Clues to Vikings in America
Source: New York Times
Published: May 9, 2000 Author: JOHN NOBLE WILFORD
Posted on 05/11/2000 17:07:40 PDT by H.R. Gross
Kenosha Dig Points to Europe as Origin of First Americans
Milwaukee Journal Sentinel | 3-4-02 | John Fauber
Posted on 03/04/2002 3:05:29 PM EST by afraidfortherepublic
As they say in Kentucky; "Cymru am bith".
News Wales (UK) | 8/26/02 | Unknown
Posted on 08/29/2002 12:51:38 PM EDT by scouse
Who Were The Celts?
Ibiblio.org | unknown
Posted on 09/26/2002 11:29:44 AM EDT by blam
Siberian Graveyard's Secret (More Redheads)
International Herald Tribune | 1-8-2003
Posted on 01/08/2004 12:41:32 PM EST by blam
Split Between English and Scots Older Than Thought
Scottish Press Association | Sun 11 Apr 2004 | Louise Gray
Posted on 07/18/2004 10:05:52 PM EDT by SunkenCiv
Blood Type History, Human Migrations (Blam Thread)
USC | July 01, 05 | Dennis O'Neil
Posted on 07/03/2005 4:47:49 PM EDT by Little Bill
What A Viking's Smile Revealed
New Scientist | 1-7-2006
Posted on 01/08/2006 5:12:41 PM EST by blam
The incident of red hair in Libya is the same as it is in Ireland.
...speaking of ancient roots... ;')
Would this be one of those kidnapping the womenfolk & taking them back home kind of things? Maybe there's some history that I'm missing, cuz I hadn't heard about a male Irish to Scandinavia movement.
Odds are on 'all of the above'.
The Norsemen are responsible for the name Russia, from Rus meaning red. If red hair was common among the Norsemen, I doubt they'd name a different population based on it.
"I've heard that the red hair, common in Ireland, is from the Norse. But, now I have to wonder."
The Celts who had come from the continent also had blonde and red hair.
The "Irish" language is gaellic or celtic; from those same Celts that came from the continent.
Dublin is said to have been founded by Vikings, chromosomes or no chromosomes.
Makes you wonder: Ancients used to sell the captured locals into slavery. The dispora of any group is evidently typical, as is the intermarrying of the conquerors with the conquered.
Can you find it in your heart to befriend a Dane name Christensen?
I recall a history channel show that said the Egyptians depicted the Jews with red hair in their Art Work. (It was a show about the tomb of Joseph - with a mural of a guy with red hair, many colored cloak, etc.).
Another smack upside the head, for to correct my vagarious thinking, from GK; and another timely and pertinent post by you. Thanks, as always, for the wakeup.
I am happy to add you to my list of friends.
Besides, the Vikings (like the Angels before them) were into human bondage and regularly sold spare women, and purchased strong men.
Actually, all those people were into human bondage. I recall, in fact, that St. Patrick was a slave for a while.
That includes blond hair.
The greatest incidence of red hair occurs in Wales, and they had the least contact with the Scandinavians.
Remember, there are three sources of populations in Scandinavia. First there are the Sa'ami. Secondly there are the Balts (whose migrations are well known). Thirdly there are the Irish taken as slaves (or buddies) into Scandinavian society.
tak (Danish for thank you). My grandfather, Alfred Christensen, came over here from Copenhagen when he was 21 - legally!
Wasn't expecting that one.
does anyone know if the 'little people' were supposed to be redheads or something other?
Today's Bushmen have peppercorn hair growing in "tufts" like Mongolian grass.
If you had said Scotland instead of Scandinavia I wouldn't have asked what you were talking about.
I had always thought the Vikings who plundered the Irish coast were so enamoured of the beautiful redhaired women there, that they took them back home with them. Check Scandinavia for Irish blood.
I should have read more of the thread before posting.
Ahem. Watch-it kiddo!
I've read at least one anthropologist speculate that the Leprechauns of Irish myth were in fact Bushmen.
The Scandinavians did a bit less plundering of Ireland than they did elsewhere. The Irish were a rough lot in those days ~
They date from BEFORE our type of folks came around.