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The scale and nature of Viking settlement in Ireland from Y-chromosome admixture analysis
European Journal of Human Genetics ^ | September 6, 2006 | Brian McEvoy, Claire Brady, Laoise T Moore and Daniel G Bradley

Posted on 09/10/2006 5:44:28 AM PDT by CobaltBlue

The Vikings (or Norse) played a prominent role in Irish history but, despite this, their genetic legacy in Ireland, which may provide insights into the nature and scale of their immigration, is largely unexplored. Irish surnames, some of which are thought to have Norse roots, are paternally inherited in a similar manner to Y-chromosomes. The correspondence of Scandinavian patrilineal ancestry in a cohort of Irish men bearing surnames of putative Norse origin was examined using both slow mutating unique event polymorphisms and relatively rapidly changing short tandem repeat Y-chromosome markers. Irish and Scandinavian admixture proportions were explored for both systems using six different admixture estimators, allowing a parallel investigation of the impact of method and marker type in Y-chromosome admixture analysis. Admixture proportion estimates in the putative Norse surname group were highly consistent and detected little trace of Scandinavian ancestry. In addition, there is scant evidence of Scandinavian Y-chromosome introgression in a general Irish population sample. Although conclusions are largely dependent on the accurate identification of Norse surnames, the findings are consistent with a relatively small number of Norse settlers (and descendents) migrating to Ireland during the Viking period (ca. AD 800–1200) suggesting that Norse colonial settlements might have been largely composed of indigenous Irish. This observation adds to previous genetic studies that point to a flexible Viking settlement approach across North Atlantic Europe.

(Excerpt) Read more at nature.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: genetics; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; ireland; norse; vikings; ychromosome
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1 posted on 09/10/2006 5:44:29 AM PDT by CobaltBlue
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To: SunkenCiv; martin_fierro

Ping.


2 posted on 09/10/2006 5:46:22 AM PDT by CobaltBlue (Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.)
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To: CobaltBlue

Identifying Scandinavian y-chromosomes would seem to be the real problem here. For several hundred years the gene-flow was from Ireland to Scandinavia, so a reverse gene-flow from Scandinavia would simply be invisible.


3 posted on 09/10/2006 5:52:40 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Irish_Thatcherite

Ping.


4 posted on 09/10/2006 5:54:17 AM PDT by fanfan (Trust everybody, but cut the cards yourself.)
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To: CobaltBlue

Bjoerndalen, Eftevang, Ingebriktsson, Kjelstrup, Ramsfjell, Skjölsvold, and Ytterhus are some of my Irish friends.


5 posted on 09/10/2006 6:08:50 AM PDT by Right Wing Assault ("..this administration is planning a 'Right Wing Assault' on values and ideals.." - John Kerry)
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To: CobaltBlue
... the findings are consistent with a relatively small number of Norse settlers (and descendents) migrating to Ireland during the Viking period...

I've heard that the red hair, common in Ireland, is from the Norse. But, now I have to wonder.

6 posted on 09/10/2006 6:18:24 AM PDT by Barnacle
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To: Barnacle

From some of the studies I have found on the Internet, it seems that red hair is from the indigenous, Paleolithic population.

Sorry I can't remember the names of the studies/sites.


7 posted on 09/10/2006 6:28:10 AM PDT by squarebarb
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To: Barnacle

Many Celts had red hair -- long before the Vikings showed up. Maybe the Vikings brought more blond hair to Ireland?


8 posted on 09/10/2006 6:34:42 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: squarebarb
Well, that's interesting. Thanks.

It seems that the genetics can get quite complicated in Ireland. After all, you have the original folks, the Norse, the Normans, the Spanish and of course, the Brits.
9 posted on 09/10/2006 6:42:35 AM PDT by Barnacle
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To: squarebarb
From some of the studies I have found on the Internet, it seems that red hair is from the indigenous, Paleolithic population.

Are you sure? I thought the "Black Irish" were the original Paleolithic population, and that the red and blond hair came from the Celts.

-ccm

10 posted on 09/10/2006 7:34:36 AM PDT by ccmay (Too much Law; not enough Order)
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To: AdmSmith; AnalogReigns; caryatid; CobaltBlue; concentric circles; Domestic Church; Emmalein; ...
Genetic
Genealogy
Send FReepmail if you want on/off GGP list
Marty = Paternal Haplogroup O(2?)(M175)
Maternal Haplogroup H
GG LINKS:
African Ancestry
DNAPrint Genomics
FamilyTree DNA
mitosearch
Nat'l Geographic Genographic Project
Oxford Ancestors
RelativeGenetics
Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation
Trace Genetics
ybase
ysearch
The List of Ping Lists

11 posted on 09/10/2006 9:22:50 AM PDT by martin_fierro (< |:)~)
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To: CobaltBlue

The history I've read concerning Vikings in Ireland is that they attacked the coastline but never made inroads into Eire Proper. The genetic makeup reported in this thread seems to indicate this is true.

Moreover, there was expulsions of Norman and Roman colonialism as well. However, the various Irish chronicles talk of Irish colonialism in Wales, Cornish England, and Scotland with a nod toward Irish seafaring expeditions to North America all occurring between circa 400-800 CE..

It would be great to see the true genetic make-up of all humans. I think it would amaze us where our forefathers have been, whether they be Irish, Zulu, Cherokee, Aztec, Roman, Parthian, Mongol, or Jew.


12 posted on 09/10/2006 11:29:15 AM PDT by sully777 (You have flies in your eyes--Catch-22)
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To: ccmay
Are you sure? I thought the "Black Irish" were the original Paleolithic population, and that the red and blond hair came from the Celts.

My understanding was that the "Black Irish" were the descendants of those who intermarried with the Spanish that survived the sinking of the Armada off the coast a few hundred years ago.

13 posted on 09/10/2006 11:41:16 AM PDT by Cowboy Bob (Liberalism in a parasite that ALWAYS kills its host.)
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To: CobaltBlue; blam; Ernest_at_the_Beach
Celtic/Irish ping


14 posted on 09/10/2006 12:17:41 PM PDT by sully777 (You have flies in your eyes--Catch-22)
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To: fanfan; Colosis; Black Line; Cucullain; SomeguyfromIreland; Youngblood; Fergal; Cian; col kurz; ...

Thanks for the ping, fanfan!!

Ireland Ping.


15 posted on 09/10/2006 12:38:54 PM PDT by Irish_Thatcherite (A vote for Bertie Ahern is a vote for Gerry Adams!|What if I lecture Americans about America?)
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To: Irish_Thatcherite

Your welcome!


16 posted on 09/10/2006 12:56:48 PM PDT by fanfan (Trust everybody, but cut the cards yourself.)
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To: fanfan

:)


17 posted on 09/10/2006 1:03:40 PM PDT by Irish_Thatcherite (A vote for Bertie Ahern is a vote for Gerry Adams!|What if I lecture Americans about America?)
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To: CobaltBlue
"Celts and Celtophiles"

"Science in the modern world has many uses; its chief use, however, is to provide long words to cover the errors of the rich. The word "kleptomania" is a vulgar example of what I mean. It is on a par with that strange theory, always advanced when a wealthy or prominent person is in the dock, that exposure is more of a punishment for the rich than for the poor. Of course, the very reverse is the truth. Exposure is more of a punishment for the poor than for the rich. The richer a man is the easier it is for him to be a tramp. The richer a man is the easier it is for him to be popular and generally respected in the Cannibal Islands. But the poorer a man is the more likely it is that he will have to use his past life whenever he wants to get a bed for the night. Honour is a luxury for aristocrats, but it is a necessity for hall-porters. This is a secondary matter, but it is an example of the general proposition I offer-- the proposition that an enormous amount of modern ingenuity is expended on finding defences for the indefensible conduct of the powerful. As I have said above, these defences generally exhibit themselves most emphatically in the form of appeals to physical science. And of all the forms in which science, or pseudo-science, has come to the rescue of the rich and stupid, there is none so singular as the singular invention of the theory of races.

"When a wealthy nation like the English discovers the perfectly patent fact that it is making a ludicrous mess of the government of a poorer nation like the Irish, it pauses for a moment in consternation, and then begins to talk about Celts and Teutons. As far as I can understand the theory, the Irish are Celts and the English are Teutons. Of course, the Irish are not Celts any more than the English are Teutons. I have not followed the ethnological discussion with much energy, but the last scientific conclusion which I read inclined on the whole to the summary that the English were mainly Celtic and the Irish mainly Teutonic. But no man alive, with even the glimmering of a real scientific sense, would ever dream of applying the terms "Celtic" or "Teutonic" to either of them in any positive or useful sense."

"That sort of thing must be left to people who talk about the Anglo-Saxon race, and extend the expression to America. How much of the blood of the Angles and Saxons (whoever they were) there remains in our mixed British, Roman, German, Dane, Norman, and Picard stock is a matter only interesting to wild antiquaries. And how much of that diluted blood can possibly remain in that roaring whirlpool of America into which a cataract of Swedes, Jews, Germans, Irishmen, and Italians is perpetually pouring, is a matter only interesting to lunatics. It would have been wiser for the English governing class to have called upon some other god. All other gods, however weak and warring, at least boast of being constant. But science boasts of being in a flux for ever; boasts of being unstable as water.

"And England and the English governing class never did call on this absurd deity of race until it seemed, for an instant, that they had no other god to call on. All the most genuine Englishmen in history would have yawned or laughed in your face if you had begun to talk about Anglo-Saxons. If you had attempted to substitute the ideal of race for the ideal of nationality, I really do not like to think what they would have said. I certainly should not like to have been the officer of Nelson who suddenly discovered his French blood on the eve of Trafalgar. I should not like to have been the Norfolk or Suffolk gentleman who had to expound to Admiral Blake by what demonstrable ties of genealogy he was irrevocably bound to the Dutch. The truth of the whole matter is very simple. Nationality exists, and has nothing in the world to do with race. Nationality is a thing like a church or a secret society; it is a product of the human soul and will; it is a spiritual product. And there are men in the modern world who would think anything and do anything rather than admit that anything could be a spiritual product.

"A nation, however, as it confronts the modern world, is a purely spiritual product. Sometimes it has been born in independence, like Scotland. Sometimes it has been born in dependence, in subjugation, like Ireland. Sometimes it is a large thing cohering out of many smaller things, like Italy. Sometimes it is a small thing breaking away from larger things, like Poland. But in each and every case its quality is purely spiritual, or, if you will, purely psychological. It is a moment when five men become a sixth man. Every one knows it who has ever founded a club. It is a moment when five places become one place. Every one must know it who has ever had to repel an invasion. Mr. Timothy Healy, the most serious intellect in the present House of Commons, summed up nationality to perfection when he simply called it something for which people will die, As he excellently said in reply to Lord Hugh Cecil, "No one, not even the noble lord, would die for the meridian of Greenwich." And that is the great tribute to its purely psychological character. It is idle to ask why Greenwich should not cohere in this spiritual manner while Athens or Sparta did. It is like asking why a man falls in love with one woman and not with another.

"Now, of this great spiritual coherence, independent of external circumstances, or of race, or of any obvious physical thing, Ireland is the most remarkable example. Rome conquered nations, but Ireland has conquered races. The Norman has gone there and become Irish, the Scotchman has gone there and become Irish, the Spaniard has gone there and become Irish, even the bitter soldier of Cromwell has gone there and become Irish. Ireland, which did not exist even politically, has been stronger than all the races that existed scientifically. The purest Germanic blood, the purest Norman blood, the purest blood of the passionate Scotch patriot, has not been so attractive as a nation without a flag. Ireland, unrecognized and oppressed, has easily absorbed races, as such trifles are easily absorbed. She has easily disposed of physical science, as such superstitions are easily disposed of. Nationality in its weakness has been stronger than ethnology in its strength. Five triumphant races have been absorbed, have been defeated by a defeated nationality.

"This being the true and strange glory of Ireland, it is impossible to hear without impatience of the attempt so constantly made among her modern sympathizers to talk about Celts and Celticism. Who were the Celts? I defy anybody to say. Who are the Irish? I defy any one to be indifferent, or to pretend not to know."

GK Chesterton, Heretics chapter XIII

18 posted on 09/10/2006 1:35:31 PM PDT by JasonC
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To: Cowboy Bob; ccmay

Actually, I'd heard that "black Irish" was a derogatory term for Italians, who immigrated to the US after the Irish did. A mean reference to their olive complexion and the fact that they were initially as unwelcome here as the Irish were.


19 posted on 09/10/2006 1:43:42 PM PDT by To Hell With Poverty (The trouble with muslim immigrants: There can be no integration without inebriation!)
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To: sully777

I thought many of the Vikings ended up "emigrating" to England/Scotland/Ireland? Better climate, more land, etc.


20 posted on 09/10/2006 1:44:44 PM PDT by Calvin Locke
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To: To Hell With Poverty

But then again, I didn't realize until today that there was ever any Spanish settlement of Ireland.


21 posted on 09/10/2006 1:51:06 PM PDT by To Hell With Poverty (The trouble with muslim immigrants: There can be no integration without inebriation!)
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22 posted on 09/10/2006 9:09:04 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (updated my FR profile on Saturday, September 2, 2006. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: CobaltBlue; blam; FairOpinion; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 24Karet; 3AngelaD; ...
Thanks CobaltBlue. Yo, ho, yo, ho, it's the pirate's life for me...

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

23 posted on 09/10/2006 9:09:13 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (updated my FR profile on Saturday, September 2, 2006. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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a few more that gave the first few searches the slip:

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24 posted on 09/10/2006 9:16:30 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (updated my FR profile on Saturday, September 2, 2006. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: vladimir998; Barnacle

The incident of red hair in Libya is the same as it is in Ireland.


25 posted on 09/10/2006 9:26:46 PM PDT by blam
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To: SunkenCiv; Pharmboy
Celtic Found To Have Ancient Roots
26 posted on 09/10/2006 9:29:41 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam

...speaking of ancient roots... ;')


27 posted on 09/10/2006 9:56:24 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (updated my FR profile on Saturday, September 2, 2006. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: muawiyah
For several hundred years the gene-flow was from Ireland to Scandinavia

Would this be one of those kidnapping the womenfolk & taking them back home kind of things? Maybe there's some history that I'm missing, cuz I hadn't heard about a male Irish to Scandinavia movement.

28 posted on 09/10/2006 11:02:04 PM PDT by GoLightly
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To: sully777
"I think it would amaze us where our forefathers have been, whether they be Irish, Zulu, Cherokee, Aztec, Roman, Parthian, Mongol, or Jew."

Odds are on 'all of the above'.

29 posted on 09/10/2006 11:04:14 PM PDT by norton
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To: Barnacle

The Norsemen are responsible for the name Russia, from Rus meaning red. If red hair was common among the Norsemen, I doubt they'd name a different population based on it.


30 posted on 09/10/2006 11:05:43 PM PDT by GoLightly
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To: Barnacle

"I've heard that the red hair, common in Ireland, is from the Norse. But, now I have to wonder."

The Celts who had come from the continent also had blonde and red hair.

The "Irish" language is gaellic or celtic; from those same Celts that came from the continent.

Dublin is said to have been founded by Vikings, chromosomes or no chromosomes.


31 posted on 09/10/2006 11:06:11 PM PDT by truth_seeker
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To: CobaltBlue; All
A little OT, but does anyone know about the high incidence of Multiple Sclerosis in Scotland? I read (somewhere!) years ago that Scotland has the highest percentage of MS than any other country.

It may have been in an article about J.K. Rowling (The "Harry Potter" writer...I think that is her nom de plume!).

Her mother has MS and Rowling started a campaign to fund more research.
32 posted on 09/10/2006 11:07:57 PM PDT by hummingbird (Bloggers killed the Media Stars.)
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To: norton

Makes you wonder: Ancients used to sell the captured locals into slavery. The dispora of any group is evidently typical, as is the intermarrying of the conquerors with the conquered.


33 posted on 09/10/2006 11:14:56 PM PDT by sully777 (You have flies in your eyes--Catch-22)
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To: Right Wing Assault

Can you find it in your heart to befriend a Dane name Christensen?


34 posted on 09/10/2006 11:16:23 PM PDT by bethtopaz (There will be peace in the Mideast when Arabs love their children more than they hate Israel. -Meir)
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To: blam

I recall a history channel show that said the Egyptians depicted the Jews with red hair in their Art Work. (It was a show about the tomb of Joseph - with a mural of a guy with red hair, many colored cloak, etc.).


35 posted on 09/10/2006 11:27:35 PM PDT by geopyg (If the carrot doesn't work, use the stick. Don't wish for peace, pray for Victory.)
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To: JasonC

Another smack upside the head, for to correct my vagarious thinking, from GK; and another timely and pertinent post by you. Thanks, as always, for the wakeup.


36 posted on 09/11/2006 12:47:46 AM PDT by dasboot
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To: bethtopaz

I am happy to add you to my list of friends.


37 posted on 09/11/2006 2:54:02 AM PDT by Right Wing Assault ("..this administration is planning a 'Right Wing Assault' on values and ideals.." - John Kerry)
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To: GoLightly
The bad boys in Northern Ireland conquered Scotland. They vastly outnumbered the Scandinavians they were running into.

Besides, the Vikings (like the Angels before them) were into human bondage and regularly sold spare women, and purchased strong men.

Actually, all those people were into human bondage. I recall, in fact, that St. Patrick was a slave for a while.

38 posted on 09/11/2006 4:07:13 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: truth_seeker
The greater body of the population in Ireland is clearly identical to the Basque population in Spain.

That includes blond hair.

The greatest incidence of red hair occurs in Wales, and they had the least contact with the Scandinavians.

Remember, there are three sources of populations in Scandinavia. First there are the Sa'ami. Secondly there are the Balts (whose migrations are well known). Thirdly there are the Irish taken as slaves (or buddies) into Scandinavian society.

39 posted on 09/11/2006 4:10:38 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Right Wing Assault

tak (Danish for thank you). My grandfather, Alfred Christensen, came over here from Copenhagen when he was 21 - legally!


40 posted on 09/11/2006 7:33:06 AM PDT by bethtopaz (There will be peace in the Mideast when Arabs love their children more than they hate Israel. -Meir)
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To: muawiyah
"The greatest incidence of red hair occurs in Wales.."

Wasn't expecting that one.
does anyone know if the 'little people' were supposed to be redheads or something other?

41 posted on 09/11/2006 7:50:18 AM PDT by norton
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To: norton
The "little people" were, if we can believe their skeletons found along the coast in North Africa, were very similar to the Kalahari Bushmen. Presumably they ranged up into the British Isles from an earlier time before ocean levels rose.

Today's Bushmen have peppercorn hair growing in "tufts" like Mongolian grass.

42 posted on 09/11/2006 8:33:24 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

If you had said Scotland instead of Scandinavia I wouldn't have asked what you were talking about.


43 posted on 09/11/2006 8:53:10 AM PDT by GoLightly
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To: SunkenCiv

I had always thought the Vikings who plundered the Irish coast were so enamoured of the beautiful redhaired women there, that they took them back home with them. Check Scandinavia for Irish blood.


44 posted on 09/11/2006 9:34:26 AM PDT by ValerieUSA
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To: ValerieUSA

I should have read more of the thread before posting.


45 posted on 09/11/2006 9:42:30 AM PDT by ValerieUSA
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To: SunkenCiv
"...speaking of ancient roots... ;')"

Ahem. Watch-it kiddo!

46 posted on 09/11/2006 9:52:49 AM PDT by blam
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To: muawiyah; norton
"The "little people" were, if we can believe their skeletons found along the coast in North Africa, were very similar to the Kalahari Bushmen. Presumably they ranged up into the British Isles from an earlier time before ocean levels rose."

I've read at least one anthropologist speculate that the Leprechauns of Irish myth were in fact Bushmen.

47 posted on 09/11/2006 9:55:40 AM PDT by blam
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To: ValerieUSA

The Scandinavians did a bit less plundering of Ireland than they did elsewhere. The Irish were a rough lot in those days ~


48 posted on 09/11/2006 9:58:23 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: blam; muawiyah
Leprechauns were what I was aiming for:
Speculation that they were in fact migrants from N. Africa?
Assume very, very, early ones?
49 posted on 09/11/2006 11:33:26 AM PDT by norton
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To: norton
Maybe not "migrants" at all ~ they've found these skeletons in numerous coastal areas in Western Europe and UK as well.

They date from BEFORE our type of folks came around.

50 posted on 09/11/2006 11:52:53 AM PDT by muawiyah
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