Posted on 11/29/2009 7:09:50 AM PST by IbJensen
If you’d like to be on or off, please FR mail me.
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Thank you for the timeline, and thank you for your service.
I concede that we did not have a treaty post-Paris; nevertheless, we had a commitment, and did not live up to it. There is no doubt in my mind that Zer0 could weasel out a NATO obligation if he really wanted to (if only by dithering so long that the issue became moot) and would in a heartbeat.
Thanks.
To the question in the title:
INDEED!
What makes anyone think Zero would lift a finger for the UK, unless it was his infamous middle one?
I have one correction.
“We’ve subsidized Europe’s and Asia’s defenses for sixty years. “
Indeed we have - blood and treasure.
Israel has gotten less from the US than Europe, Asia or Saudi Arabia or Kuwait.
No US soldier has ever fought for Israel.
Silly treaty.
NATO is a one way street.
US money and lives pay for Europe’s socialism.
Sounds simple enough.
NATO needs to be reevaluated given the current geopolitical realities, but to call the treaty "silly" says a lot about your knowledge of the organization.
Simply not true. Israel has received over $100 billion in assistance from the US, which is more per capita than any other country. And this doesn't include huge private contributions to Israel from America. We don't give aid to Kuwait or Saudi Arabia.
No US soldier has ever fought for Israel.
Why should they? US soldiers fight for their own country, America, to defend our national interests. Israel has killed Americans (USS Liberty), stolen intelligence information using spies, and sold US technology to China. The US is Israel's strongest ally. We have done far more for Israel than the other way around.
1. “Israel has received over $100 billion in assistance from the US, which is more per capita than any other country. “
Not only is this wholly untrue, but “per capita” is a wholly irrelevant methodology.
It is untrue because the majority of US “assistance” to Europe and SK and Japan is buried in our Defense budget. While the dollars that go to Israel even though they are used for defense are called “aid.”
2. Europe has gotten exponentially more money. We fund Europe’s defense almost totally.
3. Egypt gets the identical sum of money from the US as Israel does. How is that in US interests? When was the last time the US ordered Egypt to do or not do something?
4. The site you are using for your figures is a part of the Jewish Democratic political pac
5. You are including large amounts of repaid loans in your Israel figures
6. The US fought for and currently has soldiers protecting SA, Kuwait, Europe, S Korea, Japan. At what cost? How is it in our interest?
7. Are you claiming that Israel deliberately killed Americans in the Liberty accident? If so you are revealing your bias.
8. You used the plural “spies.” Are you referring to Pollard? The UK has had many more spies that compromised more US interests by spying for the Soviets than the single Pollard who gave his info to a friendly country. Do you consider the UK a greater security risk? You should.
9. “We have done far more for Israel than the other way around.”
So why in your opinion is the US “Israel’s strongest ally?
10. It is unproven that Israel sold to China. Further the US sells to all of Israel’s enemies in the ME.
“NATO was essential to contain the Soviet Union for 40 years and responsible for its eventual collapse. “
Operative word “was.” What are they doing lately? What is their total contribution in Afghanistan? What is their total contribution to NATO as a percent of GDP compared to the US?
Are you aware what limitations individual NATO countries place(d) on “fighting” in Afghanistan and in their own backyard in Serbia, Bosnia and Kosovo?
We fought Europe tooth and nail to allow us to protect them against the Soviets. Maybe it is you who are lacking in knowledge on the history of NATO.
NATO is a relic. It is great for Europe since we pick up the tab.
We are not providing military assistance to Europe, SK or Japan. In fact, we are receiving money from them to offset our costs and we continue to press them for more money as part of burden sharing.
2. Europe has gotten exponentially more money. We fund Europe’s defense almost totally.
Are you f**king nuts? We certainly do not provide Europe with military aid. Do you have any sources for that ridiculous statement?
3. Egypt gets the identical sum of money from the US as Israel does. How is that in US interests? When was the last time the US ordered Egypt to do or not do something?
Egypt does not receive the same amount of assistance from us that Israel does. Foreign Aid to Egypt Surely you must be aware of how we came to give this annual aid to Egypt? It was part of the Camp David deal that enabled Carter to strike up a deal between Egypt and Israel including diplomatic relations. It was a payoff plain and simple.
4. The site you are using for your figures is a part of the Jewish Democratic political pac
So? Are you saying that the information is invalid? And it is not a "Democratic" PAC.
5. You are including large amounts of repaid loans in your Israel figures
LOL. What loans were repayed?
6. The US fought for and currently has soldiers protecting SA, Kuwait, Europe, S Korea, Japan. At what cost? How is it in our interest?
You must really be uninformed. We have strategic interests in those regions as well as mutual security pacts. We fought for our interests, not on behalf of these countries. We are also in Iraq and Afghanistan.
7. Are you claiming that Israel deliberately killed Americans in the Liberty accident? If so you are revealing your bias.
Yes there are very real questions about whether the attack was intentional or not. This report raises those questions. And as a former naval officer who was in the US Navy at the time, I have heard second hand reports from people I respect and trust, that the attack was deliberate. Be that as it may, the dead are dead regardless of whether it was accidental or intentional.
8. You used the plural “spies.” Are you referring to Pollard? The UK has had many more spies that compromised more US interests by spying for the Soviets than the single Pollard who gave his info to a friendly country. Do you consider the UK a greater security risk? You should.
We are discussing Israel not the UK, but it is worth noting the the UK was not supporting these spies since they were spying on the UK as well.
I am not just referring to Pollard. Ben-Ami Kadish, the Mega Dispute, and Franklin.
9. So why in your opinion is the US “Israel’s strongest ally?
The only democracy in the ME, sahared values, strategic location, AIPAC, and the Holocaust.
10. It is unproven that Israel sold to China. Further the US sells to all of Israel’s enemies in the ME.
US acts over Israeli arms sales to China
Questions: If there is a difference between US national interests and Israeli national interests, whom do you support? Do you have dual nationality?
I served in Europe (1968-70) as a naval officer attached to a NATO Command and as diplomat in two other NATO countries including the US Mission in Berlin. I understand what NATO is all about. And we did not have to fight tooth and nail with our fellow NATO members to allow us to protect them. They wanted our presence there and in many cases fought our reductions in forces.
I was there as well (82-85) but I have to admit that I was just a ground-pounder. If they were fighting our reductions in forces it was because they thought they would lose money on house/apartment rentals, manuever damage payments, and the like.
Very true. When we had over 500,000 forces in Europe plus families, we had a major impact on the local economies.
“If there is a difference between US national interests and Israeli national interests, whom do you support? Do you have dual nationality?”
I am aware that you work/ed for the State Department. please disclose your various postings including any in the ME.
I have only US citizenship. I was born here to two American parents. Unlike you I have never lived elsewhere. i am a lifelong conservative. I see no reason I should take a loyalty oath posed by you.
Do you have allegiances to any of the countries you were posted to as part of the State Dept? As George Schultz, one of our finest Secretary of States, noted, many employees of State forget who they work for.
http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/george_schultz_the_us_state_dept.html
Listen, I don’t have to argue with someone obscuring the truth. There was substantial objection both private ad public to US stationing missiles on European soil TO DEFEND EUROPE. Our great Pres Reagan was the anti-Christ there.
Ditto South Korea now with our troops sitting on the DMZ. Ditto SA’s treatment of Pres HW Bush and our troops when we fought Gulf 1.
“We are not providing military assistance to Europe, SK or Japan. In fact, we are receiving money from them to offset our costs and we continue to press them for more money as part of burden sharing.”
and
“Are you f**king nuts? We certainly do not provide Europe with military aid. Do you have any sources for that ridiculous statement?”
Are you f**ing lying?
Do we have bases in Europe? Do we have soldiers on the DMZ between the Koreas? Bases in Japan?
As I said before the US does the majority of funding for NATO. US dollars are spend on R&D of weapon systems exponentially greater than Europe’s spending. You admitted the paltry contribution of Europe to Afghanistan. Who was developing missile defense to defend who?
Your entire post is full of lies and misstatements.
But the bottom line is - you hate Israel and you get on every Israel thread to make trouble.
As you said, you are one of those who believe Israel deliberately attacked the US Liberty. There’s a name for that. You are a product of the Arabist , anti-Israel James Baker Sate Dept. You threw in your AIPAC reference and your post charging Jewish dual loyalty.
Now go away.
I was stationed in Berlin during the "Tear Down This Wall" speech and served on four WH advance teams during Reagan visits to Rome (twice), Helsinki, and Bitburg. Reagan was not the anti-Christ during those visits nor was he disliked at the end of his term. There are a number of streets and squares named after him including one in Warsaw where I served during the days of Solidarnosc'.
Ditto South Korea now with our troops sitting on the DMZ.
Most South Koreans, including the government, want our continued presence there and when it was rumored that we might reduce our troop levels in South Korea, the South Korean government raised strong objections.
Ditto SA’s treatment of Pres HW Bush and our troops when we fought Gulf 1
That is pure BS. I was stationed in Riyadh for five years including during the entire Gulf War. The Saudis treated our troops very well and Bush 41 was thanked with effusive praise as well as providing us with about $25 billion to cover our costs as well as providing us with free fuel for our vehicles and aircraft. And Kuwait provided Bush 41 with some shares of stock that appreciated considerably after he left office. Both the Saudis and the Kuwaitis donated significant sums of money to Bush 41's Presidential library.
First of all, we have bases in those countries because it is in our strategic national interests to do so. We request basing rights from those countries and set up agreements to cover costs, a significant amount of which is reimbursed by the host country. You make it sound like we are there for altruistic reasons. Simply not the case.
As I said before the US does the majority of funding for NATO.
Do you understand how NATO bills its members for costs covering such things as the NATO HQ in Brussels. The US provides about 25% of NATO'S common costs.
US dollars are spend on R&D of weapon systems exponentially greater than Europe’s spending. You admitted the paltry contribution of Europe to Afghanistan. Who was developing missile defense to defend who?
We spend money on R&D to provide our forces the best weapons systems possible. It matters not what Europe spends on its weapons systems. In fact, we try to sell our weapons systems to them to lower our unit costs.
The European contribution to Afghanistan is not "paltry." There are 67,700 forces in ISAF with 34,800 US. Of the 1531 fatalities from all causes, the US has lost 928 and the other coalition members 603.
As you said, you are one of those who believe Israel deliberately attacked the US Liberty. There’s a name for that. You are a product of the Arabist , anti-Israel James Baker Sate Dept. You threw in your AIPAC reference and your post charging Jewish dual loyalty
I have plenty of company in believing that the attack was deliberate including the surviving crew members. Read their testimonies as well as those of Dean Rusk and CNO Moorer. The State Department is far from being "arabist" and in fact, those who serve in the Middle East in arab countries find they have very little influence on US foreign policy.
My problem with you "Israel-firsters" is that you believe that whatever is in Israel's best interests automatically makes it in the best interests of the US. No two countries agree exactly on all issues. And when it comes to deciding what is the best course for us to take, I support America and our national interests above all others.
I have visited Israel several times. There is more discussion and criticism of government policies than what is reported in the US. In the US there is a more lockstep approach among American jews on Israel, including those in Congress and less toleration of differences in policy recommendations. Both political parties try to outdo one another on their support for Israel, which is why it doesn't matter which party is in power when it comes to Israel.
But the bottom line is - you hate Israel and you get on every Israel thread to make trouble.
Ah, it always ends with pulling the anti-semite card. The problem is that you can't handle the truth. I don't "hate Israel," but I want the US to pursue a foreign policy that is in our best interests, not anyone else's.
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