Have We Not Reason to Rejoice?

LDS.org ^ | 10/07 | Dieter F. Uchtdorf

[outofstyle]

Who did you vote for in the primary?

Romney

And why did you pick that candidate over some other candidate?

Thompson could not even get on the ballot in my state and Romney was the most conservative option.

And did the candidates religious persuasion fit anywhere into your decision?

Not in the least.

[outofstyle]

you believe that Catholicism is true.... If you don't believe that, then maybe you aren't that serious about your catholicism.

I believe that. I also believe that the government should not promote, or prevent the free exercise of, religion. I am also serious about conservatism, in the Reagan model.

I am a Catholic, so is Ted Kennedy. My wife is a Protestant, so is Hiillary and so is McCain and Huck. Romney is a Mormon.

Of these, I would choose Romney.

[tortdog]

I am asking for the authority of your definition. Why don’t you provide it?

I suggest the following definition of Christianity:

>1. The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus

http://www.bartleby.com/61/26/C0332600.html (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000)

[colorcountry]

We teach that we should worship no other gods then the God of Abraham. Sounds montheistic to me.

Have you ever heard the LDS worship or pray to any other gods?

All well and good, but does Mormonism 'teach' there ARE other gods that have universes of their creation?

[colorcountry]

We teach that we should worship no other gods then the God of Abraham. Sounds montheistic to me.

Have you ever heard the LDS worship or pray to any other gods?

All well and good, but does Mormonism 'teach' there ARE other gods that have universes of their creation?

[colorcountry]

Hmmmm according to your definition:

>1. The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus

Who is this Jesus that Christians follow? Is it that illegal immigrant driving the snow plow, giving us a path to follow? Or is Jesus the Christ defined in some other way?

[sitetest]

Dear tortdog,

Speaking of definitions, here's one:

henotheism
One entry found.

henotheism

Main Entry: heno·the·ism

Pronunciation: \ˈhe-nə-(ˌ)thē-ˌi-zəm\

Function: noun
Etymology: German Henotheismus, from Greek hen-, heis one + theos god — more at same
Date: 1860
: the worship of one god without denying the existence of other gods
— heno·the·ist \-ˌthē-ist\ noun
— heno·the·is·tic \ˌhe-nə-thē-ˈis-tik\ adjective

The LDS religion is not monotheistic, but rather henotheistic.

sitetest

[P-Marlowe]

I am a Catholic, so is Ted Kennedy.

Ted Kennedy is a secularist. I'm a better Catholic than Kennedy.

My wife is a Protestant, so is Hiillary

If Hillary believes in God, then she believes that she is God. She is only a Protestant because she thinks it looks good on her resume.

so is McCain

I will give McCain the benefit of the doubt there.

Of these, I would choose Romney.

You don't have that choice anymore.

[P-Marlowe]

Not in the least.

Then I would have to surmise that religion is not really that important to you.

[Colofornian]

We teach that we should worship no other gods then the God of Abraham. Sounds montheistic to me. Have you ever heard the LDS worship or pray to any other gods?

Well, it gets real confusin' for Mormons.

How many (true) gods are worshiped in the Bible? (One according to Jews & Christians)

How many (true) gods are worshiped in the Book of Mormon? (Two according to the Mormon definition of Heavenly Father and Jesus being two separate gods).

How many (true) gods are worshiped according to their LDS apostle's "Mormon Doctrine" 1966 book? (Three according to the Mormon definition of Heavenly Father and Jesus and the Holy Ghost being three separate gods): "Three separate personages--the Father, Son and Holy Ghost--comprise the Godhead...To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only gods we worship." (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 567-577, 1966 edition)

Oh, wait a minute. (I should have kept reading). McConkie, on p. 848, only emphasizes worshiping two gods: "The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship....No one can worship the Father without also worshiping the Son....It is proper to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and also to worship the Son" (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 848).

Oh, wait. McConkie changes his mind by 1982, when he gives a devo @ BYU (March 2, 1982, "Our Relationship with the Lord") Essentially, McConkie wasn't happy with either his "3" god or "2" god worship. So he came up with a kind of 1 1/2-god worship:

We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.

His only problem is that neither the Bible (example God tells the angels to worship Him in Heb. 1:6) and even the Book of Mormon know of either a reserved for-the-Father-only worship. (Nor does the BoM recognize "applause" worship like McConkie prescribed to later in his life...see, for example, 2 Nephi 25:29 below). From the Book of Mormon:

4 Nephi 4:37: Therefore the true believers in Christ, and the true worshipers of Christ, (among whom were the three disciples of Jesus who should tarry) were called Nephites, and Jacobites, and Josephites, and Zoramites.

2 Nephi 25:29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

3 Nephi 11:17 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him.

3 Nephi 17:10 And they did all, both they who had been healed and they who were whole, bow down at his feet, and did worship him;

Back to the BYU 1982 devo. LDS leaders already discount praying directly to Jesus, despite some disciple characters who repeatedly pray directly to Jesus in the Book of Mormon (3 Nephi 19:16-30). Note how McConkie wrapped up his 1982 devo in which he told folks NOT to seek a special intimate relationship with Jesus:

"Now I sincerely hope that no one will imagine that I have in the slightest degree downgraded the Lord Jesus in the scheme of things. I have not done so. As far as I know there is not a man on earth who thinks more highly of him than I do. It just may be that I have preached more sermons, taught more doctrine, and written more words about the Lord Jesus Christ than any man now living. I have ten large volumes in print, seven of which deal almost entirely with Christ, and the other three with him and his doctrines."

Translation of McConkie: "Let's see, now. We worship the Father only...we pray to the Father only...we don't seek a special relationship with Jesus...Nope, no 'downgrade' of Christ in my mind, right? Why, in my humble opinion, I think more of Christ than any man alive! In fact, if I may be so modest, 'It just may be that I have preached more sermons, taught more doctrine, and written more words about the Lord Jesus Christ than any man now living.' Obviously, I've exported a lot of commentary on the man!"

[Colofornian]

...sounds monotheistic to me

Thomas calls Jesus his God in John 20:28; even the Nephite disciples likewise called Jesus “their Lord and God” (3 Nephi 19:18). D&C says Jesus is God (19:4; 62:1; etc.) Since there’s only one true God in the bible and in the LDS scriptures (for example, Pearl of Great Price says "no God besides me" (1:6), either Jesus is a false god or the one true God. Jesus Christ is a God to Thomas (John 20:28). So Thomas has two gods?

The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus

Tort, you can't have just one "Christianity" if you don't even have one Christ. The apostle Paul said there was "another Jesus." (2 Cor. 11:3-4). There' s multiple "Christianities"--all of them false save one just like there's multiple christs--all of them false save one.

Your never-ending "dictionary" definitions keep assuming that there's only one Jesus. The Moonie "Jesus" is not divine. The Muslim "Jesus" is no "partner" of Allah; he is "just" a prophet. The JW "Jesus" was a man-who-was-Michael-the-archangel-who was-a-lesser-god.

The Mormon "Jesus" upon spirit birth was not unique other than his spirit birth order. He's just one god among thousands or millions of Mormon gods.

He was not THE Son of God from eternity past. He worked his way up to godhood status. He's not an exalted God-become-man, but an exalted man-become-God. He was an elder spirit bro of Lucipher. Had you or your brother been "first" in that pre-existent spirit world birth order, he could have been Christ!!!

This "Jesus" really didn't die for our personal sins or our rebellious nature...cause when we get to Mormon heaven men are subject to punishment for their own sins--not Jesus [LDS second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression." The flip side of this belief is that Jesus wasn't punished for our sins--men will be...Jesus was simply punished for Adam's sin to release us to "free agency."]

This "Jesus" is foreign to the Bible. The Messiah of the Bible shared the glory with the Father in the beginning (John 17:5). This Jesus is THE Son of God, not just a son of God. And THE Son of God did not consider equality with His Father something he couldn't let go of while becoming a man (see Philippians 2). Phil. 2 makes it clear He was already divine, not just a "wannabe" God like Dear Ole Dad.

This God created all things--including all angels...including even Lucipher (see Heb 1; John 1; Col. 1:16; see even D&C 93:9-10). This Jesus didn't atone for sins by sweating blood in the garden; He did it on Calvary as the Bible proclaims.

This Messiah was born in Bethlehem as the Bible foretold and affirmed post-birth--not like the Mormon "Jesus" of Mormon Scriptures born in Jerusalem. This Messiah is to be known directly, along with THE ONLY TRUE GOD (John 17:3) as the basis of eternal life...unlike LDS apostles like McConkie who taught BYU students NOT to seek a special relationship with Jesus.

This Jesus is to be prayed directly to--despite the suppression of direct prayer to Jesus by LDS general authorities--in direct betrayal of what Book of Mormon characters repeatedly supposedly did in 3 Nephi 19:16-30...all with the Mormon "Jesus" repeatedly approving them doing so!

This Jesus is to be worship directly like Heavenly Father...because Heavenly Father beckoned us to do so...He beckoned the angels to do so (Heb. 1:6) as well as the wise men when He was a baby. (Even the BoM says to do so! (3 Nephi 11:17; 17:10; 4 Nephi 4:37).

I would suggest that LDSaints cut out their apostles' nonsense--telling folks to just give Jesus "applause" worship--(thanksgiving and reverential awe). It's time for LDSaints to take a closer look at their own Book of Mormon:

And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out. (2 Nephi 25:29)

Let us worship Jesus of the Bible with all our might, mind, and strength, and our whole soul--giving all restrained reservations cast upon us by mere religious men usurping God's authoritative Word!

[MHGinTN]

Thought it might be good to ping you to this most cogent post. ... And thank you, Colofornain, for all you are doing to represent My Lord where heresies are being promoted.

[Zakeet]

You assertion Mormons are Christian is ludicrous for at least three reasons.

FIRST: MORMONISM REJECTS MANY ESSENTIAL CHRISTIAN DOCTRINES

I suggest you check out the article: We're Christians just like you! wherein the author presents a number of well-annotated examples.

If necessary, dozens of additional articles and illustrations can be found on this WEBSITE alone.

SECOND: THE MORMON CHURCH UNEQUIVOCALLY CONDEMNS CHRISTIANS AND CHRISTIANITY

And the angel of God said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people. – Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10-11

My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong) – and which I should join. … I was answered by God that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” He again forbade me to join with any of them – Prophet Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith History 1:18-20

Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century. – Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167

The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God. – Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:171

Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth." – Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 6:176

Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom. – Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, 10:127

Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast. – Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 13:225

What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing... Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God. – Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 13:225

The Book of Mormon remains secure, unchanged and unchangeable … but with the Bible it was not and is not so … it was once in the sole and exclusive care and custody of an abominable organization (Christianity), founded by the devil himself, likened prophetically unto a great whore, whose great aim and purpose was to destroy the souls of men in the name of religion. In these hands it ceased to be the book it once was. – Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, The Joseph Smith Translation, pp. 12, 13

In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints "do not believe in the traditional Christ.” No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. – Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, LDS Church News, June 20, 1998, p.7

If still not convinced, you can find many more similar quotes of Mormon leaders slamming Christians HERE and HERE.

THIRD: THE MORMON CHURCH ITSELF REJECTS CHRISTIANITY

Beginning with Joseph Smith, Mormon prophets have steadfastly proclaimed all Christian denominations were in a state of apostasy.

This raises an interesting question. A heretic is someone who rejects one or more doctrines of religion, but an apostate is someone who has rejected the religion entirely. How is it, exactly, that you can be something you have completely dismissed? How does that work?

[Zakeet]

We teach that we should worship no other gods then the God of Abraham. Sounds montheistic to me. Have you ever heard the LDS worship or pray to any other gods?

Without question, Mormons are polytheistic

You may want to check out this cartoon presenting Mormon Beliefs. Then, you may want to bear in mind the following:

1. As explained with annotations HERE, the Mormon Church teaches God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are three separate deities.

2. The Mormon Church also teaches our God (whom they call "Heavenly Father") is actually a third generation being who ascended into godhood. He necessarily descended from "Heavenly Parents" who were themselves gods.

3. The Mormon Church further teaches of the existence of a "Heavenly Mother" who is married to God and is the mother of both Jesus and Lucifer.

4. Mormons themselves ascribe to become gods through good works. In the words of their famous couplet:

   As man now is, God once was. As God now is, man may become.

5. Finally, the Mormon Church teaches Mormonism is polytheistic. You can see several dozen annotations of this doctrine HERE.

In light of the above, it is silly to argue Mormonism is monotheistic in any form or fashion.

[Elsie]

Who authored this anti-Mormon campaign?

We've already told you; but you do not believe it.

[Elsie]

I find the attacks against Mormons disgusting.

Can you point out what YOU think is an 'attack'.

I've seen that adjective used over and over in these threads to cover a lot of things, but NONE has ever been copy & pasted and said...

---> THIS RIGHT HERE <---

...is what I mean by ATTACK.

[tortdog]

What you confirm is that we worship the Father in the name of the Son. That there are three personages is true, but it does not alter who is the Father.

The Jewish criticism of early Christians for claiming that both the Father and the Son are gods was what caused the trinity theory to be debated and crafted. The theory is extra-biblical and denies the plain evidence of separate personages at Christ’s baptism and in other passages.

[Elsie]

 

The finger-pointing started with a line or two from “devotional” itself (which no one has yet to address).

 

---

---

 

 

For our LDS Devotation today, we will be studying

 

 

 

THE BOOK OF JACOB
THE BROTHER OF NEPHI

CHAPTER 2:24-32

 

 

     

 

and how the holiness expressed therein profoundly affected the lives of our early leaders:

 

Smith, Young, Taylor, Pratt, Snow, Kimball and  Woodruff.

 

 

 

 

 

[Elsie]

The LDS Church doesn’t recognize Catholic baptisms. But it recognizes that Catholics are Christian.

DISCONNECT!!

[Elsie]

Says who?

Joseph Goebbels