Posted on 08/27/2011 2:14:11 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
“Using the term “elect,” Titus 1:1 reinforces the idea that God separates some few from the many who are called: “Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect. . . .”
That quote says no such thing. The elect have faith - was it given to them? Not in scripture. In scripture, it is their response to God (faith means to believe someone will do what they say). It in no way suggests that ‘the elect’ were personally chosen by God and given faith as a gift.
“Romans 9:11, 14-16 confirms God’s active participation in this process of separation:”
Romans 9-11 deals with the problem of the Jews - why did God’s Old Testament Elect not recognize Him?
Israel was God’s Chosen People, but not all believed. And only those who believed, apart from circumcision, were saved. (See Romans 3-5)
“The “chosen” and “elect” are synonymous terms designating the group with whom God is personally working through Jesus Christ”
True. But who are the Elect? Are they a list of names picked by God before time to be saved, and all else to be damned, or are they those who believe, and believing, have life in Christ and are now elect?
And since there are hundreds of verses discussing the requirement to believe, and saying THAT is the critical issue, it seems foolish to toss those 400 verses and cling instead to 30 verses about election, and claim election is the essential characteristic.
“It was saved by grace and grace alone”
How do we access this grace that God gives? By election (God gives grace to some and denies it to others), or by faith (responding to God by believing)?
Of COURSE it is God’s grace that saves us, but is it by grace through election, or grace through faith?
Amen. There is an awful lot resting on the HOPE that those FALLIBLE men got it right. Because it certainly doesn’t match what God has said in His word.
“Did Abraham make that covenant with God or was he sleeping and God made the covenant without Abrahams input? “
Hmmm...”5And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.” - Genesis 15
Golly - Abraham didn’t make the covenant with God, but neither did God make it with him while Abraham slept.
“That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.
In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead ( since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.”
Why such a knee-jerk reaction when you could just read the Book of Acts and learn about the transition that was taking place then?
I invite you to read Hebrews.
Tell me, were folks like Abel, Enoch, Noah and Abraham and the gentile harlot Rahab Elect/Jews?
The point being, is that Dysfunctionalism has this perverted fetish over ethnic Jews, raising the enemies of Jesus Christ to an exalted position over the rest of the human race. This template, when applied to the whole of Scripture produces some of the most heretical, blasphemous and demonic dreck since it pretends to operate out of the Scriptures when it fact it viciously attacks it from all angles.
The blasphemer who generated the article in question starts off by arrogantly claiming to "debunk Calvinism" by inventing out of thin air a redefinition of "elect" that no one else holds. For thousands of years there hasn't been a question of who is meant by the "Elect". In fact, for as long as I have been aware, the Free Will Cabal that hates God's Sovereignty and wishes to devolve and deconstruct the Doctrines of Grace and Mercy into nothingness, have long claimed that "elect" is something God does after He looks down the Tunnel Of Time and sees you raising yourself from your own spiritual death and setting aside the natural enmity to claim a saving faith in Christ.
Even those in the American Religion who reject the Doctrines of Grace ought to be offended at this man's thoughts. For the author has turned "election" into a DNA feature and completely removed it from its proper domain, and that being a description of all those who have faith in Jesus Christ our LORD - regardless of how you believe that one comes to faith.
"Election" has never been the exclusive domain of genetic/ethnic Jews especially when one reads Hebrews 11 and sees that there are those who lived thousands of years before the first "Jew" was born who were elect by God's Grace.
You are correct to some degree about the grafting in of "men of every nation" into the tree of faith of Abraham. Rahab the harlot was a Gentile who believed by Grace and became part of our LORD's human ancestor's. How about the Samaritan women (John 4) she was pre-Pentecost, or the Centurion of Luke 7 who our LORD declared "I have not found such grea faith, not even in Israel"? The Canaanite woman who found our LORD in Mark 7:24-30 is declared by Jesus as "Great is your faith!". The OT even gives instructions on how a non-Jew can be a proselyte and be counted a part of the People of God.
The river that flows from Ezekiel's Temple in Ch.47, and again by John in Ch.22 of the Revelation refers to the Gospel going out to all the world beginning with the Jews (Ro 1:16 confirms). It is that expansion and increase of the River that is what it appears that you are appealing to in your references in Acts.
By beginning his article with outright slander and lies against the American Religion's regular Bogey Man John Calvin, going on for paragraph after paragraph of belligerent lies and unsubstantiated claims, then wresting Scripture that is reminiscent of The Garden, then conveniently leaving out the many passages that would immediately debunk his entire arrogant and profane rant in the most obvious and plain language, the author presented himself as an enemy of God and of the Faith.
What was far more important is this fetish worship of Christ Haters at the expense of the entire body of Scripture. He is a man that rejects the Authority of the Scriptures and attacks the People of God.
I would agree with this.
Our response is in response to HIS calling us.
A big question is... can we, on our own, decide to reject God? I would say No. God gave them over to their sins (Romans 1). Again it was God acting.
I look at it like this: A natural man (one still in his sin nature) can choose, if you will, two actions in every circumstance; he can choose to sin, or he can choose to not sin. Those are his only choices.
A regenerated man, however, has three choices in any given circumstance; he can choose to sin, he can choose to not sin, or he can choose to glorify God.
It goes something like this: instance 1. Natural man - I am either going to punch you in the nose, or I am not.
Regenerated man: I am either going to punch you in the nose, not punch you in the nose, or I am going to tell you why Jesus would rather I not punch you in the nose.
In short, unregenerated (natural) man cannot choose to please God. He does not have the free will to do so. It takes an act of God.
I hope this makes sense. Oh, and by the way, I love the give and take without the namecalling some tend to do. Thank you very much.
***As long as they are on the ship, in company with the ship’s Captain, they are among the elect. If they choose to abandon the ship and Captain, they cease to be part of the elect. Election is always only in union with the Captain and his ship.***
My concern with this is that Jesus said he would not ever lose one of his own. Another way to look at it is, it is not my salvation, but Jesus’. He bought my salvation with his own blood, and so now he owns me completely. It is not mine to lose, but his to have forever.
These are not a gotcha questions. I genuinely want a different perspective and I value yours.
If election is predetermined, of what use or benefit is a covenant? Further, if God chooses to elect, why does He exclude some. Why the need for this earthly kabuki theater, wouldn't God's will be satisfied by willing some directly to heaven and some directly to hell?
Why do you stop reading and make your assumptions? How about reading the entire version of evernts.
12And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
Not sleeping you say? Now while he is sleeping God makes the covenant.
13And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
Now here is where the covenant is sealed. Abram still sleeping by the way, and the deep sleep happened before it was even dark as we see in the next verse.
17And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
18In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
You really need to use all of scripture, not just pick verses to try to support error.
If you were a potter, not Harry, but the other kind, and you made a whole bunch of pots. Some you decide to use in the garden to hold flowers, others you decide to use to hold garbage, and still some you want to sit on the mantle. Now, you made them, you decided where they go and what the do. Are you wrong in not putting all of them on the mantle?
So your argument is that Joshua was mistaken, he mistakenly believed the people had a choice. All of the prophets, all of the preachers who called on people to repent, to choose God were operating under the false notion that people genuinely could choose. The prophets and the people were actors in a staged performance with scripted scenes and finale. All the while very writer of the play declares His truthfulness, but the play its self is a testimony to lies and deception. It can not be so, God does not lie nor does He deceive.
Thank you. That’s the gist of my question... The Lutherans I know seem to imply one over the other, though I’d like to get an explanation here - FR is always a better source of information than some relation by marriage.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Even faith is a gift from God. “not of yourselves”
Try to take credit for yourself if you will.
Well Paul is just about as explicit as anyone in the WORD as to when the ‘electing’ took place. Ephesians 1 Paul repeatedly explains ‘election’ and when the act took place and what it was that made some in the ‘elect’.
A better question is when were the souls and their spirit intellect created? Because this flesh age is what will pass away after every willing soul/spirit has opportunity to be born from above into a flesh body. John 3.
According to Paul the ‘elect’ were chosen because of their perfect LOVE of and for Christ before the beginning of this flesh age. There is not one thing any of us walking in flesh bodies today that can go back and change that. BUT a/the covenant made and still holding to even these days were made so that the Plan of God be fulfilled and He already knew when He made the covenant/s who He could trust.
Hell has yet to be ‘formed/created’ as it is the kind of ‘fire’ that destroys the soul/spirit bodies and we in flesh have yet to return to that dimension.
Try to take credit if you must but I believe that it was a gift from God.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
It seems to me that the "elect" are chosen for God's purposes, whatever or whenever that might be in history, and by God directly or through the Holy Spirit.
Mark 13:20 (Jesus speaking of the tribulation) “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them."
Mathew 24:22 (Same here) Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
So I conclude that God directly and personally favors a small number for his purposes whatever they may be.
I don't feel this is "picked" to be saved. Though of course, as God says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”
I feel elect are a group picked to serve God's purpose on earth, are among us today, and that probably most of these have not a clue that they are furthering God's plan for mankind.
“A big question is... can we, on our own, decide to reject God?”
Well, I think the answer is yes. Why?
“6The LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.” - Gen 4
“46And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.” - Acts 13
” 28 “What do you think? A man had two sons. And he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ 29And he answered, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he changed his mind and went. 30And he went to the other son and said the same. And he answered, ‘I go, sir,’ but did not go. 31Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you. 32For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.” - Matt 21
There again, Jesus presents us as having a choice: “And he answered, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he changed his mind and went...And he answered, ‘I go, sir,’ but did not go.” There is no hint that God forced one son to go, and held the other back. Instead, it is obvious the sons are exercising their own choice - and Jesus then compares that to the salvation of the religious leaders vs the scum: “For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.”
Again, no hint of compulsion, or that God had made the choice for these folks before time.
And yet, it is also obvious it is God reaching to us: “A man had two sons. And he went to the first and...John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him”.
God innitiates it all. We make a choice - we believe what God presents to us (faith) or reject it (unbelief). And that response to God is what brings us into his grace, or leaves us outside: “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”
***“A big question is... can we, on our own, decide to reject God?”
Well, I think the answer is yes. Why?***
That, in my book, would make us superior to God. It is OUR choice that determines our destination. This I do not believe. I believe that God chose from the beginning of creation who would be his children, and then works to make it so.
Can anyone surprise God, either way? Will God be walking through Heaven and suddenly stop and say “How the heck did YOU get in?” Or will he ever say, “Gee I sure wish Bob would have made a better choice.”
“You really need to use all of scripture, not just pick verses to try to support error. “
You might try taking your own advice.
You start in verse 12: “And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram...”, but:
“6And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.”
Yes, verse 6 came BEFORE verse 12! The covenant followed the belief. It did not cause the belief, and it did not cause Abraham to be counted as righteous. The covenant FOLLOWED faith. Faith did not result from the covenant, which came AFTER the faith.
In like manner, we repent and believe, and become part then of the New Covenant. The New Covenant follows belief, just as the Old Covenant did. In the words of Paul, “...we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”
The word access: “Old word from prosagw, to bring to, to introduce. Hence “introduction,” “approach.” Elsewhere in N.T. only Ephesians 2:18; 3:12.”
We are introduced to God’s grace - we meet it, approach it - by faith. Not election.
And faith? “1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
a) relating to God
1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
b) relating to Christ
1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God”
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4102&t=NASB
Or to use the dictionary definition: “confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another’s ability.”
In this case, we have faith in God’s ability to save us, and to take us to the final destination chosen by God: To be conformed to Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Even faith is a gift from God. “not of yourselves”
Try to take credit for yourself if you will.
In the English, one can become confused. In the Greek, it is clear: gift refers to salvation and cannot refer to faith (different genders).
“And that (kai touto).
Neuter, not feminine tauth, and so refers not to pistiv [faith] (feminine) or to xariv [grace] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex umwn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dwron) and not the result of our work.”
http://www.studylight.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?book=eph&chapter=002&verse=008
So I don’t lose the formatting, I’ll quote a post from aruanan in a separate post in a minute.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.