Saul And The Charismatics...

http://billrandles.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/saul-and-the-charismatics/ ^ | 02-14-12 | Bill Randles

[pastorbillrandles]

And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)

I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.

Why not? Didn’t He promise us that …

… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)

I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?

Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.

But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.

Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)

One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.

Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?

False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.

The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.

These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.

Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.

The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.

The charismatic movement is in danger of ending like Saul…

At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!

Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!

“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.

Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,

When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)

The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.

“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.

Bethel Students “Soaking Anointing” Off of Tombs !

Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)

[johngrace]

Also there should be no blame game. Sad but true people do this. Just sad.

[johngrace]

I was only showing that part because that area of scripture. I never implied that was an absolute. My mother prayed for others without them knowing it with Godly results.

No offense John MacArthur does not believe in any biblical tongues for today. Which is absolutely wrong in my eyes. I read his book Charismatic chaos. He believes no matter what all from the enemy. He brings up good points then goes from cautious to paranoid.

Also some of us claim we go to bible only then have to read John Macarthur on what it reads. Very strange from people who believe bible only. If we really believe the bible only what in the world would you go to John macarthur for anyway. . We can't read it on our own if you really believe it. Please.

Just goes to show what a farce of a saying that is to some. In all reality if the bible is all there is know why go to others who can have different opinion. What a farce.

[presently no screen name]

LOVE YOUR TESTIMONY.

How nice of you to say that! I kept it very brief, lots missing. I will send you the somewhat better version some time. You never know when/where God's Work will cause angst and/or hurt to anyone. Never thought that was possible but obviously, it is.

[smvoice]

"For there is one God, and ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;.." 1 Tim. 2:5.

Well, here's my Scripture to back up what I'm about to say. A "divine healer" makes himself a mediator between the sick and God. A "prophesier" makes himself/herself a mediator between the congregation and God. A "speaker in tongues/deciferer of the tongues message" make themselves mediators between God and the congregation.

That's all I should need to say.

[CynicalBear]

I’m not sure that one works smvoice. Jesus also said we could do things in His name. That gives us power of attorney if you will. Jesus is indeed the mediator between God the Father and man but when we do things in Jesus name we have His power. A sobering thought when thinking of using that power.

[smvoice]

You’re right, of course. All I was saying is that each one of us has His power. We have no need of going through another person to get to His power. As an example, a “divine healer” is one who we are going THROUGH in order to get God’s healing. Something that we can take directly to God ourselves, and according to His WILL, not the middle man’s “power” are we healed, or not. Same thing with tongues, and prophecy. THere are no middle men who have a power that others do not possess. We are just as capable of taking it directly to God than anyone else for us. To go to a healer to ask him to pray to God for our healing is to put him between us and God. To think that God would grant to him something He would not grant to us directly is to put the healer in the position of being the vessel God uses for our healing. Or any miracles, signs or wonders that someone claims they have been given the ability to perform by God.

[Quix]

Perhaps when I see evidence of

or feel

heard much at all,

I’ll have more confidence about trying to carry forth a more genuine dialogue.

[Quix]

INDEED.

My years on FR have taught me that any fool think can be asserted

in terms of “Christianity.”

Sigh.

[boatbums]

Those sign gifts HAD a purpose:

Mark 16:19-20 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

The "word" being confirmed now must be what Holy Scripture says, since it is God's completed revelation to us. No new or special revelation outside of Scripture is warranted.

The Barnes' Commentary says:

"Confirming the word - Showing it to be the word of God or a revelation from heaven. By signs following - By attending miracles. By raising the dead, healing the sick, etc., as signs that God was with them, and had sent them forth to preach."

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible says:

"And they went forth,.... After this the apostles went forth, from Galilee to Jerusalem; and on the day of pentecost, they appeared publicly, and preached the Gospel in divers languages; and after the death of Stephen, and the persecution raised upon that, they went forth from Jerusalem; see Isaiah 2:3.

And preached every where; not only in Judea, and in the neighbouring countries, but all over the world, in process of time:

the Lord working with them; making their ministry useful, for the conviction and conversion of large multitudes, and for the forming and settling abundance of Gospel churches, and for the comfort and edification of the saints; all which was done, by the power and grace of Christ, without whom they could do nothing; see 1 Corinthians 3:9.

And confirming the word with signs following; the Arabic version adds "them"; or "which they did", as the Syriac and Persic versions render it; not by their own power, but, as the latter of these versions adds, "by the help of our Lord"; see Hebrews 2:4; to all which, the evangelist puts his

Amen; so let it be, or so it shall be, and so it was.

[Quix]

WELL PUT.

[Quix]

VERY IMPRESSIVE & CLEVER!

I’m sure God will appreciate y’all telling

HIM

how He needs to do it all

MUCH *MORE* correctly,

IF

HE

WANTS ya’ll to pay more attention to His Word on such matters.

/s

[Quix]

[CynicalBear]

But don’t miss the appropriate response from smvoice. What I said that we “each” get that “Power of attorney” and don’t need those who would propose to do it for us. Christ gave that authority to each believer knowing that if given to select individuals those individuals would tend to use it in inappropriate ways which has been born out by those charlatans who claim special powers.

[CynicalBear]

Should we assume then that any pastor, Preacher or Evangelist who does not follow up with miracles is not from God?

[smvoice]

That is exactly right. No new or special revelation outside of God's COMPLETED revelation of Scripture to us is warranted now.

So, that leaves the question: what are they doing with their "signs" now? Becoming "vessels" of "communication" and "healing" between God and other believers. Believers who do not know (?) they have an open line, straight to God and do not need a middle man to intercept and intercede for them. Why is this so difficult to understand?

[Quix]

NEVERTHELESS,

Paul still said to pray for the more excellent gifts of broader use to The Body of Christ in the local congregation.

. . . that all may prophecy . . .

yet there are those with a gift of prophecy . . .

And there are still others who have the Office of a Prophet.

Reading your assertions one way could indicate that Paul lied or was an idiot or simply wrong about the distinctions and giftings of different people because . . . according to one way of reading your assertions, God just lowered the Heavenly shotgun and blasted everyone equally.

Obviously HE did NOT do things that way.

And, like humans only more so . . .

GOD DOES NOTHING WITHOUT A REASON.

I happen to think HIS REASONS are quite trustworthy and reasonable whether I always understand them seemingly fully or at all and whether the bloke in the next pew thinks so, or not.

[boatbums]

What do you say to those who aren’t healed?....and if these healers are as they claim...why then aren’t they in EVERY children’s hospital in this nation instead of at a podium putting on a show?

That is a VERY valid question and one that I've NEVER heard adequately answered.

It most definitely IS a valid question because Jesus went to where sick people were and he healed every one.

Matthew 4:23-24
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

Acts 10:37-39
That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree

[Quix]

That’s an interesting question.

I’d say that . . .

Given Mark 16:16-18 . . .

That if some of those signs don’t follow a man or woman of God EVER . . . then they are either not in right standing with God or are living far below their inheritance and calling in God . . . and thereby achieving far less for The Kingdom than they might otherwise be accomplishing by His Grace and giftings.

. . . or perhaps God has them in a long dark night of the soul . . .

or . . . a desert experience . . . or some sort of mysterious period of being on a sabbatical or “on the shelf” for whatever reason.

[Quix]

What people are doing is recommending for us not to judge by the word of God, but dispense with any discernment.

.
THAT'S
UNMITIGATED NONSENSE,
to me.
HOWEVER,
Thanks for yet
PROOF
that I haven't begun
to be heard.

[Quix]

MORE unmitigated UnBiblical nonsense.