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Pjr12345,
By any chance are you a Nestorian?

Please don’t twist things that I say. It is quite clear that I said the primacy of Christ affects Mary, not that Mary affects the primacy of Christ.

It would do well for the people on this thread to actually read what is written instead of twisting it to say things that were not said in the first place and then attacking the misrepresentation.

“She has nothing to do with our salvation.”

Oh, really? Who was it then that gave the Incarnate Christ his body? Who was it who said “Yes” to the angel and accepted the reponsibility of being the Mother of God?

Mary takes part in the offering of Christ because Christ willed it. He didn’t need Mary to become Incarnate, yet He chose her to be His Mother and to participate in the act of redemption. Christ could have been sacrificed for our sins without Mary, but He chose to have Mary involved.

To answer Blue-Duncan, see Luke 2:34-35 and also see the Crucifixion accounts where Mary is at the foot of the Cross praying for her Son and Luke 2:34-35 is fulfilled. Mary pondered in her heart the things told to her while Christ was still a child. If Mary didn’t have an idea of what was to be expected of her from the Angel, her “fiat” would not have been valid.

Once again, this post isn’t about Mary. It is about the primacy of Christ. It would be nice to start talking about that instead of misrepresenting the teachings of the Church on Mary.

God Bless.

It has not been illustrated or even suggested by Catholics on this thread that the Primacy of Christ is in any way dependant on Mary!

Once again, you fail to understand what the title “Co-redemptrix” means. I have explained it above. It does not in any way mean that the primacy of Christ is dependant on Our Lady. As I said before, all privileges of Mary come from Christ.

God Bless.

It is Christ who does the offering. Christ is both priest and victim. No other priest could offer such an offering, save the perfect Great High Priest that is Christ (cf. the Epistle to the Hebrews). Mary takes part in the offering by consenting to the immolation of her Son. She does not become God nor does she take God’s place. She is allowed to participate in this sacrifice by and through the power of Christ.

Christ is the Great High Priest who was predestined before all the world regardless of sin, who offers up the everlasting sacrifice of His Body and Blood at each Mass. We don’t offer Christ up at Mass, Christ offers Himself up continuously at the Mass through the priests who represent Him and who are empowered by Him.

I agree with Fr. Maximilian that we should return to the topic of this post, namely the eternal predestination of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, rather than bashing false assumptions of what the Catholic Church believes.

God Bless.

It seems many people are confusing the terms “doctrine” and “dogma.” Our Lady’s maternal mediation (Mother of All Peoples with its three aspects) is an official doctrine of the Church. It is not yet a dogma. It is valid to debate whether it should or should not be a dogma, but one cannot debate whether it is already a doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Also, to the other posters,
the title “Co-Redemptrix” does not mean that Mary is a goddess or is above Christ or is even equal to Christ. The “co” comes from Latin which means “with and under.” There is no hint at equality. The issue of “Co” meaning “equal to” is a faulty english understanding of the prefix. All of the virtues, grace, and privileges of Mary come from Christ. The title “Co-redemptrix” means literally “the woman with the Redeemer.”
This is not a new concept. It is present (called recirculation) in the Fathers of the Churc who said that as sin entered the world through a man, a woman, and a tree, so the act of redemption is accomplished by a Man(Christ), a Woman(Mary), and a Tree(the Cross).

God did not need Mary to enact our redemption, but he chose her from all eternity to be Mediatrix and Co-redemptrix with Christ, the Mediator and Redeemer.

God Bless.

“Future? You mean she isn’t now? ;-)

She’s waiting patiently for the official announcement from the Pope. The Title will be given retroactive application to the date of the Crucifixion. That way the Catholics can insist that they did not change her status, they merely confirmed it”

Actually it’s already a doctrine of the Church and Our Lady already is the Mother of All Peoples which has the three aspects of Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix of all graces, and Advocate.

God Bless.

What Fr. Maximilian Mary said that I meant is exactly what I meant to say. I don’t for one minute think that the Trinity is created, nor for that matter does Scotus.

The outline was pulled together from my notes for my Mariology II class last semester. The phrasing for “After willing the Trinity” is not something I came up with, but was what my professor(who also does not believe that the Trinity is created) mentioned was in Scotus’ account. I believe he was thinking of this section from Scotus:

“I say, nevertheless, that the Fall is not the cause of Christ’s predestination. Indeed, even if one angel had not fallen, or one man, Christ would still have been predestined thus—even if others had not been created, but only Christ. This I demonstrate thus: anyone who wills methodically first wills an end, and then more immediately, those things which are more immediate to the end. But God wills most methodically; therefore, He wills thus: first He wills Himself, and everything intrinsic to Himself; more directly, so far as concerns things extrinsic, is the soul of Christ. Therefore, in relation to whatever merit and before whatever dement was foreseen, He foresees that Christ must be united to Him in a substantial union...”

The “willing of himself” is meant I suppose in the way Fr. Maximilian Mary explained. Love is of the will and God loves Himself.

I also agree that this discussion should focus on the Incarnation of Christ and His Absolute Primacy and the implications thereof.

God Bless.