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Rasanath Das, a former New York investment banker who gave it all up to become a Hindu monk, was recently spending his Sunday afternoons leading Occupy Wall Street protesters in meditation until police cleared their camp at Zuccotti Park this week. The 32-year-old monk isn’t sure now where his next session will be. He’ll keep following the protesters to offer meditation sessions, though, convinced they will only roll back the inequality they see around them if they find equanimity deep inside. “Anger won’t solve anything,” he told Reuters. “We have to work from the heart… there is so much distrust...

KAARACHI: Four Hindu doctors have been gunned down in Pakistan's southern Sindh province, sparking fears and panic among the minority community. The doctors were gunned down yesterday at their clinic in Chak town close to Shikarpur. Dr Ramesh Kumar, a former member of provincial assembly and chief patron of Pakistan Hindu Council, confirmed that Dr Ashok, Dr Naresh, Dr Ajeet and Dr Satia Paul were killed by armed assailants while working in their clinic. "This is not the first time such an incident has taken place where members of our community have been targeted. What is of concern is that...

During an event last Friday to mark an Indian company's arrival in Elizabethtown, Governor Beshear took part in a Hindu ground-blessing ceremony, which is considered a traditional service in India. But one of his challengers, Republican nominee David Williams, attacked Beshear, claiming he took part in idol worship. "He's there participating with Hindu priests, participating in a religious ceremony. They can say what they want to. He's sitting down there with his legs crossed, participating in Hindu prayers with a dot on his forehead with incense burning around him. I don't know what the man was thinking," said Williams. Beshear's...

The Asian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) has received information that A 12-year-old Christian girl was abducted and raped for eight months. The rapists have not been arrested because of their affiliation with a militant Muslim organization. The police are also refusing to order a medical checkup. The Judicial Magistrate of the area took her statement under section 164 Cr Pc (Criminal Procedure Code) but has not made any orders for her security. One of the rapist claims that he has married the girl but she denies that any marriage took place during her abduction and captivity. The police have warned...

LISTEN TO THE REAL REVEREND JESSE ON THE INTERNET OR A RADIO STATION IN YOUR AREA......BOND Action, Inc...Educating, Motivating and Rallying Americans! The Jesse Lee Peterson Radio Show Streamed live online from 6-9 a.m. PST / 9-12 a.m. EST. Call in the same times usually. For Live Questions or Comments Call 1-888-77-JESSE(5-3773) You can email comments and questions to radio@bondaction.org For more information on getting The Jesse Lee Peterson Show picked up on a station in your local area call Ermias Alemayehu at 1-877-WE ACT77 (932-2877) Home of the South Central L.A. Tea Party!

In many ways, 29-year-old Rishi Bhutada is a traditional Hindu, not so different from his Indian-born parents. An officer at his dad’s pipefitting company, Texas-born Bhutada had an arranged marriage in India three years ago and then brought his wife back to his hometown, where they recently welcomed a son. Bhutada is a strict vegetarian and avoids alcohol, as do many observant Hindus. And the dashboard of his Toyota Prius is adorned with a small metal statue of Ganesh, an elephant-headed Hindu god known as the remover of obstacles. Bhutada prays to it each morning before leaving his driveway. And...

Designer and model Lisa Burke presented the swimsuit as part of the latest collection of her Lisa Blue label at Australian Fashion Week Thursday. But when pictures of an Indian-looking model wearing a one-piece swimsuit with a portrait of Lakshmi printed on its front and rear made their way to India, Hindu nationalists didn’t like what they saw. Over the weekend, they took to the streets in several Indian cities, including Hyderabad where pictures show activists burning the Australian flag in protest against what they viewed as an act of deep disrespect.

WASHINGTON, D.C., April 1, 2011 -- On February 27 in Jalandhar, former Member of Parliament Sardar Atinder Pal Singh, President of the Shiromani Akali Dal (Khalistani), was arrested along with four other members of his party while putting up banners supporting Khalistan. He was putting up the banners in preparation for a press conference about Khalistan. Sardar Atinder Pal Singh was elected to Parliament in 1986 as an independent from Patiala. Those arrested along with Atinder Pal Singh included Bibi Kamaljit Kaur, Sardar Waryam Singh, Sardar Jagtar Singh and Sardar Amandeep Singh. They were charged with sedition. They were released...

Orissa: For Christians, the Terror Returns New wave of anti-Christian violence in India -- no trace of police reaction in the most recent incidents. Bhubaneshwar, India (kath.net/Fidesdienst) A new wave of violence sparked a renewal of fear and terror in Christian Communities in India: as on the scenes observers of Fidesdienst report since last December in the last year in the district of Malkangiri in the State of Orissa, renewed attacks have been made against Christians by the local tribal people of the region. In the last month the attacks have become more serious: there have been a total of...

18 Bishops [13 Catholic] participated in a silent hunger strike on the property of St. Mark-University of Bangalore, among them the Archbishop of Bangalore, Msgr Bernard Moras. At the protest and the hunger strike the Bishops present, the Global Council of Indian Christians (GCIC) and the Christians of Karnatakas have forged a counter-report with the title: "1000 Day Government, 236 Attacks, 1000 traumatized people". The official report of the Somsekhar-Investigative Commission exonerated the radical Hindu organizations Bajrang Dal and Sangh Parivar. The Bishops called a press conference to make note of this, that this exoneration is "politically motivated". At the...

Upon finishing his talk on St. Paul at today’s general audience in Vatican City on Wednesday, Pope Benedict turned his attention to the attacks against Christians in India. He appealed for an end to the violence and prayed that a return to peace would soon be restored, reports Catholic News Agency. Benedict XVI told of his deep sadness upon having learned the news about the violence against Christian communities in the Indian State of Orissa. People have been killed, others injured, and church property and private houses destroyed following the murder of the Hindu leader Swami Lakshmananda Saraswati. The Holy...

HINDUS HAVE applauded Pope Benedict for including verse from ancient Hindu scripture Upanishads in the Good Friday Meditations and Prayers led by him at Roman Colosseum. Acclaimed Hindu statesman Rajan Zed, in a statement in Nevada (USA) today, said that it was a remarkable gesture from Pope and invited him to study more ancient Hindu scriptures, which were very rich in philosophical thought. He or other Hindu scholars would gladly provide the help and resources in this regard, if asked, Zed added. Zed, who is president of Universal Society of Hinduism, also commended His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI for inclusion...

The brother of the Muslim actress Afshan Azad, who played Padma Patil in the “Harry Potter” films, was sentenced to six months in prison Thursday for beating his sister after he heard her talking to her Hindu boyfriend. Ashraf Azad, 28, called his sister a “prostitute” and screamed ''Marry a Muslim or you die!'' during a three-hour beating, during which, the actress said in a Manchester, England court, she feared for her life. Afshan Azad, 21, was punched, strangled, and dragged by her hair by her brother, but she still pleaded for the judge’s leniency during the sentencing hearing, and...

H.RES.1615 -- Whereas Mother Teresa was born Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu on August 26, 1910, in Skopje, Macedonia; (Introduced in House - IH) HRES 1615 IH111th CONGRESS 2d Session H. RES. 1615 Commemorating the 100th anniversary of the birth, and honoring the life and legacy, of Mother Teresa. IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES September 14, 2010 Mr. FORTENBERRY submitted the following resolution; which was referred to the Committee on Foreign Affairs RESOLUTION Commemorating the 100th anniversary of the birth, and honoring the life and legacy, of Mother Teresa. Whereas Mother Teresa was born Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu on August 26, 1910, in...

Sri Daya Mata, who for more than five decades was the leader of one of the most influential Hindu groups in the United States and an ardent advocate of the healing power of meditation, died on Tuesday at the group’s retreat for nuns in Los Angeles. She was 96. The society, whose monks and nuns adopt Indian names, teaches that there is a unifying truth behind all religious experience, and the group encourages its members to honor their roots in other faiths. Most members follow a vegetarian diet, practice yoga, chant and meditate Sri Daya Mata, who was born Faye...

Why did Obama book over 800 rooms for his upcoming trip to India? He heard Hindus worship multitudes of gods and he thought he could snooker them into believing they were all him. Useful Info Nation

Hindus have welcomed the reports of Oscar winner Hollywood star Julia Roberts (Pretty Woman) trying to adopt a child from India. Eminent Hindu statesman Rajan Zed, in a statement in Nevada (USA) today, said that he or other Hindu scholars would be glad to guide her through various samskaras (sacraments) for the new child. Rajan Zed, who is President of Universal Society of Hinduism, pointed out that sources of samskaras, some of which go as far back as 1,500 BCE, were Vedas, Grhyasutras, Dharmasutras, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Puranas and certain other smritis. Overall purpose was to perfect the individual undergoing them...

New Delhi: Sixty years after it first went to court, there shall be a verdict in the Ayodhya title suit on Thursday. This, after the Supreme Court today rejected a petition seeking that the verdict be deferred and said the Lucknow bench of the Allahabad High Court could go ahead and deliver judgment on the property dispute. The High Court is expected to deliver its verdict on Thursday, September 30, after 3 pm. On Friday, October 1 one of the judges hearing the case, Dharamvir Sharma, retires. The verdict in the Ram Janambhoomi-Babri Masjid dispute will decide whether the 2.7...

Police believe they have arrested the man responsible for making telephone calls threatening to kill managers of a Hindu monastery in a village that was the flashpoint for the 2008 anti-Christian violence. Armed police have been deployed to keep the peace while a special investigation team tries to get to the bottom of the matter. The murder of Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati, founder of the monestary in Jalespate village, by Maoists in August 2008 sparked the violence against Christians across the state that killed some 100 people and displaced more than 50,000. It has just been revealed that police on Aug....

On Youtube in two parts: Part 1.Part 2. The basic problem seems to be the question of whether or not our planet can tolerate or accommodate a religion which sanctions the kinds of conduct which these films depict.

The father and brother of a British actress who starred in the more recent "Harry Potter" movies have been charged with threatening to kill the 22-year old actress, apparently in disapproval of her boyfriend. The actress, Afshan Azad, played Harry’s classmate Padma Patil in the popular series. Her father, Abdul Azad, 54, and her brother, Ashraf Azad, are accused of threatening her in May during a fight at her Manchester, England, home. The brother is also accused of assaulting her. Details of the alleged threats and assault weren't immediately clear, but prosecutors have said the Muslim men did not approve...

The Austrian authorities have charged six Indian men over a gun attack in a Vienna temple last year in which a visiting preacher was killed. One of the men has been charged with murder and the others are accused of collaboration in the attack in the Austrian capital last May. Indian preacher Sant Ramanand, 57, was shot dead and 16 others were injured, including another preacher. The attack sparked violent protests in the state of Punjab in India. The main suspect, a 35-year-old man, was indicted on one charge of murder and two counts of attempted murder. The other five,...

A Hindu holy man in India has denied any wrongdoing, days after video emerged apparently showing him engaging in sexual acts with two women. A spokesman for Nithyananda Swami said he was at the Kumbh Mela festival and would soon "clear the air". In a video released on Sunday, the guru said he had done nothing illegal and the scandal was "a false campaign". His ashram near the southern city of Bangalore was vandalised last week after TV channels broadcast the video. Meanwhile, cases have been filed against the holy man in the southern city of Madras (Chennai) for "outraging...

Millions of Women Throng Kerala Festival Attendance at the festival has grown year after year By John Mary Trivandrum, Kerala India's southern state of Kerala may have hosted the largest gathering of women ever seen on the planet. Clad in traditional Kerala saris and bearing offerings of food, more than two million women - perhaps more - thronged the state capital Trivandrum on Sunday. The women braved searing heat to offer a special meal at the Attukal temple to Hindu goddess Bhagavathy - one incarnation of the potent goddesses Kali and Saraswati. Women howled shrilly, as is the custom at...

The head of the UN's climate change panel - Dr Rajendra Pachauri - is accused of making a fortune from his links with 'carbon trading' companies, Christopher Booker and Richard North write. No one in the world exercised more influence on the events leading up to the Copenhagen conference on global warming than Dr Rajendra Pachauri, chairman of the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and mastermind of its latest report in 2007. Although Dr Pachauri is often presented as a scientist (he was even once described by the BBC as “the world’s top climate scientist”), as a former...

Note the date of the article. What is dated in that article continues to present and into the future. The past molds the present.

More Than 200,000 Animals Slaughtered at Nepal Sacrifice Festival November 24, 2009 Nov. 24: A butcher prepares to slaughter a buffalo with his knife during a mass sacrifice ceremony at Gadhimai temple in Bariyapur, Nepal. Hundreds of thousands of Hindus gathered at a temple in southern Nepal on Tuesday for a ceremony involving the slaughter of more than 200,000 animals, a festival that has drawn the ire of animal-welfare protesters. A Nepalese minister said it was the largest sacrificial slaughter of animals in the world. Animal rights groups and activists including the actress Brigitte Bardot have condemned the event, which...

The world's biggest animal sacrifice got under way in Nepal today with the killing of the first of more than 250,000 animals as part of a Hindu festival in the village of Biriyapur, near the Indian border. * * * In the main event, 250 appointed locals with traditional kukri knives began their task of decapitating more than 10,000 buffalo in a dusty enclosure guarded by high walls and armed police. Frightened calves galloped around in vain as the men, wearing red bandanas and armbands, pursued them and chopped off their heads. Banned from entering the animal pen, hundreds of...

UP to a million Hindu devotees have gathered in a village in Nepal to witness the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of animals in a mass sacrifice that has drawn widespread criticism. Worshippers travelled long distances, many coming from India, to attend the two-day Gadhimai festival, which honours the Hindu goddess of power and takes place once every five years in southern Nepal. A huge cry of "Long Live Gadhimai!" went up after the village temple's head priest launched the event with the ritual sacrifice of two wild rats, two pigeons, a rooster, a lamb and a pig. The crowd...

Convictions Few in Anti-Christian Violence in Orissa, India Violence devastated Kandhamal district, Orissa state in August-September 2008. BJP legislator, a key suspect in Kandhamal violence, acquitted again and out on bail. NEW DELHI, November 11 (CDN) — Following six acquittals last week in trials for those accused of the 2008 anti-Christian violence in India’s Orissa state and the release on bail of a key suspect, Christians are losing heart to strive for justice, according to a prosecuting attorney. The acquittal of six suspects last week raises the total to 121, with just 27 convicted in the Orissa violence by Hindu...

Pastor in India Lured into Violent Trap [Photo] Pastor Paasu Ninama Hindu extremists entice preacher into house, beat him unconscious. NEW DELHI, October 21 (CDN) — A group of Hindu extremists in Madhya Pradesh earlier this month beat a pastor unconscious and chewed off part of his ear, pelting him with stones after he fainted from the pain. Paasu Ninama told Compass that the six attackers first lured him into a house in Malphalia village, Jhabua district with an offer of water on Oct. 4. The 35-year-old resident of Pipal Kutta village said he was on his way back from...

The Dow Jones reached a significant milestone yesterday, and news outlets were abuzz with excitement. Olympia Snowe's vote for the Baucus bill was plenty fodder for the 24-hour news cycles. But, for Hindus, Sikhs, Jains and Buddhists in the United States, an epochal event transpired at the White House afternoon that should not slip notice. Lead me from Untruth to Truth. Lead me from darkness to light. Lead me from death to immortality. (from the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad -- I.iii.28) As the ethereal sounds of a Hindu priest's chanting of this Sanskrit prayer from ancient Hindu scripture filled the East Room,...

India: Relief Camp Bombed On Sept. 27, four believers were injured when a Christian relief camp in Nandarigi village, Orissa state, providing temporary housing for Christians who fled anti-Christian, was bombed by suspected Hindu extremists, according to The Voice of the Martyrs contacts. The Hindu man who reportedly set off the bomb was killed in the attack. Five days before the attack the suspected bomber reportedly threatened Christians at the camp with violence, according to VOM contacts. The man reportedly demanded food and shelter. VOM contacts report he returned the night of the bombing heavily intoxicated and assaulted two Christian...

India: Pastor Attacked On Oct. 4, Pastor Prakash was attacked by 25 Bajrang Dal extremists while he was ministering in Kaiwara village, Bangalore Rural District, according to The Voice of the Martyrs contacts. The extremists assaulted the pastor and accused him of cheating people. After the attack, the pastor was questioned and held on complaints of “illegal activity.” Fortunately, other believers provided evidence that the pastor had not broken any laws but had visited their homes for prayer. At last report he was still in custody. Pastor Prakash has been in ministry for more than 10 years and pastors a...

Rapper to take a break after storming the stage at the VMA'sKanye West is taking a break by heading to a Hindu retreat. The rapper who recently received a lot of bad press after he stormed the stage at the VMA‘s, is apparently about to spend a month at a Hindu ashram in Pondicherry, India. "He feels terrible about hurting Taylor Swift," an insider told Star Magazine. "[He] sees it as another sign that his life is going in the wrong direction since his mother died." They added. West whose mother died in 2007 after complications during surgery, has recently...

In the current conflict in Afghanistan, India does not have a single soldier operating under NATO command. India is not part of the coalition the United States and its allies have put together to aid the Afghan government’s efforts to defeat the Taliban. In fact, India has turned down proposals within India and in the U.S. that it should participate in peacekeeping efforts in Iraq or Afghanistan. And yet, suicide bombers have struck the Indian Embassy in Kabul once again. In 2008, nearly 58 people died, including three Indians. On Friday, the toll was smaller, though the device used was...

India: Church Damaged in Attack On Sept. 9, St. Francis De Sales Church in Bangalore, India was attacked by more than 15 Hindu extremists, according to The Voice of the Martyrs contacts. Extremists armed with weapons broke into the church, damaged window panes and statues inside the church. A house behind the church was damaged. The church has about 3,000 members who attend services performed in different languages such as Tamil, Malayalam and English. Following the attack, the church priests, Father Aloysius and Father Selvaraj filed a complaint with the police. The Voice of the Martyrs supports and assists persecuted...

The Calgary Zoo said it has no plans to remove a dancing elephant statue after a complaint from a Christian group that it's an inappropriate religious icon. A private donor gave the statue, modeled after the Hindu god Ganesh, to the zoo in 2006 to stand in front of the Asian elephant exhibit. As CBC News first reported, Concerned Christians Canada sent a letter raising its concerns that the statue was "selective religious partiality" to the zoo on Thursday. "A lot of people are saying we're being intolerant. I don't consider asking that the zoo look at this from a...

A right-wing Hindu group has claimed responsibility for the attack on a Church in Bangalore city on 10 September that had destroyed 10 windows, breaking the statues of Jesus and Mary. The officials of St. Francis De Sales Church, a Catholic church in Hebbagodi, the outskirt of Karnataka state capital said they received a letter allegedly from the Sri Ram Sena (Lord Ram's Army).

» 09/22/2009 17:44INDIACatholic priest donates kidney to save Hindu manby Nirmala CarvalhoIn Kerala, Father Chiramel offers one of his kidneys to an unknown recipient. The priest said he was inspired by the ‘Year for Priest’. “For me donating an organ is a unique and privileged opportunity to share in Christ’s suffering.” New Delhi (AsiaNews) – Fr Davis Chiramel, a 49-year-old Catholic priest from Kerala, donated one of his kidneys to a complete stranger. The clergyman is parish priest at St Francis Xavier Church in Vadanapally (Kerala). Earlier this year he decided to help a Hindu father of two, a...

Christians Arrested for Operating Boys’ Hostel in India (Photo caption) Hindu nationalist extremists are a small but active fraction of India’s population. Police accompanied by Hindu extremists charge pastor, evangelist with “promoting enmity.” MUMBAI, India, September 2 (CDN) — Karnataka police accompanied by 10 Hindu extremists on Friday (Aug. 28) arrested a Christian operator of a boys’ hostel after the extremists accused him and another Christian of offering food, shelter, education and future job prospects as an “allurement” to convert to Christianity. Hanuma Naik is also pastor of Indian Gypsy Works Fellowship (IGWF). After his release on bail the next...

A day ahead of Malaysia's 52nd independence day, authorities were busy Sunday tackling tension over the display of a severed cow head at the head of a procession to protest the relocation of a Hindu shrine. The incident occurred Saturday in Shah Alam, capital of Selangor state, prompting Prime Minister Najib Tun Razak to direct Police Inspector General Musa Hasan to investigate the matter. The Selangor government Sunday condemned and expressed regret over the 'provocative, offensive and deliberate use' of the severed head of a cow by a group of people to stage a protest against the proposed relocation of...

Those who argue that all religions are essentially the same reveal the fact that they know little about these very different belief systems. The worldview of Christianity is, for example, radically different from the belief structure of Buddhism (some forms of which may actually claim to resist the very idea of beliefs). These differences in belief systems are apparent in Lisa Miller's recent article for Newsweek. As she explains, "A million-plus Hindus live in the United States, a fraction of the billion who live on Earth. But recent poll data show that conceptually, at least, we are slowly becoming more...

INDIAN yogis and Hindu leaders are in a huff over fears that Julia Roberts' upcoming movie, "Eat, Pray, Love," will bastardize their religion and portray yoga as a crock of New Age mumbo jumbo. SNIP Zed added, "The people of India will be anxious to see how perfectly Roberts does her job of cleaning ashram floors as a part of her devotional duty, trying to recite 182- verse Sanskrit chant, and going through grueling hours of meditation, while being feasted on by mosquitoes."

A Catholic priest has been found murdered in a remote area near Mangalore, southern India. The naked body of Father James Mukalel, 39, was found on a roadside in the morning of July 30. The priest worked in Belthangady diocese, a Syro-Malabar diocese, with its headquarters near Mangalore, in Karnataka state. Father Thomas Kannankal, the diocesan social work director, said the deceased priest was returning to his parish after attending the funeral of one of his former parishioners in Thottathady parish on July 29. Father Mukalel belonged to Tellicherry archdiocese in the neighboring state of Kerala, but opted to work...

Press Trust Of India Washington, July 26, 2009 First Published: 23:30 IST(26/7/2009) Last Updated: 23:33 IST(26/7/2009) Is Obama hiding his birth certificate? As President Barack Obama attempts to cool a heated racial row in the US linked to the arrest of a black Harvard professor, a growing conspiracy claims that he is hiding a Kenyan birth certificate, making him ineligible to serve as president. Conspiracy theorists in the United States and far right wingers, who have begun to call themselves “birthers”, claim that Obama is not entitled to be in the White House simply because he is “foreign born”, the...

The interior of the Cathedral of the Assumption in Kathmandu Rome, Italy, Jul 16, 2009 / 12:37 pm (CNA).- Following the recent bomb attack on the Cathedral of the Assumption, which was attributed to the Hindu group Nepal Defense Army, extremists are now threatening priests and religious in Nepal with death if they do not leave the country “within one month.” The Apostolic Vicar of Nepal, Bishop Anthony Francis Sharma, said the threats were made to the associate vicar, Father Pius Perumana.  L’Osservatore Romano reported that the police have beefed up security at the diocesan chancery in Godavari, where Father...

Situated on the banks of the icy Lidder river, a 900-year old Shiva temple is the only Hindu shrine in Kashmir Valley which has Muslim priests. After the migration of Kashmiri Pandits from a nearby village, two Muslim priests - Mohmmad Abdullah and Ghulam Hassan kept the doors of the Mamalaka temple open and bells continued to toll. "We not only took care of temple but also held 'aartis' everyday," Ghulam Hasan told a correspondent. Besides ensuring the safety of the 3-feet-long black stone "shivaling", Abdullah and Hassan have ensured no devotee goes without prasad even for a single day....

An Indian immigrant says his son was forced to violate Hindu dietary rules by eating a beef taco at a Cincinnati public school. Ashish Gandhi has filed a complaint with the U.S. Justice Department alleging religious discrimination, The Cincinnati Enquirer reported Sunday. Gandhi, who says a school employee force-fed the taco to his son, called it an "intentional act of religious bigotry" by the Academy of World Languages. Gary Winters, a lawyer for the Cincinnati Public Schools, says the 5-year-old boy selected the taco himself. "At most, there was an error made on a single occasion, for which CPS's personnel...

Thirty-four years after they fell in love, Abdul Rashid (54) and Chandni (50) got married a week ago. A local maulvi performed the nikaah ceremony at the MM Degree College in Moradabad, 160 km east of Delhi, where Rashid works, on June 15. Rashid, a Muslim, and Chandni, a Hindu, first met in 1975, when their families were neighbours in Moradabad’s Kathghar area. Soon, Rashid, then 20, the eldest of seven children of an artisan in the local brass industry, won the 16-year-old Chandni’s heart. “Their parents were furious when they found out,” recalled another neighbour, Masterjee. “Chandni’s father even...