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... what about BONCUKLU TARLA?
YouTube ^ | May 10, 2023 | The Prehistory Guys

Posted on 06/02/2023 6:13:45 AM PDT by SunkenCiv

... what about BONCUKLU TARLA? | Uncovering the real star of Middle Eastern archaeology. | 23:21
The Prehistory Guys | 63.2K subscribers | 305,710 views | May 10, 2023
... what about BONCUKLU TARLA? | Uncovering the real star of Middle Eastern archaeology. | 23:21 | The Prehistory Guys | 63.2K subscribers | 305,710 views | May 10, 2023

(Excerpt) Read more at youtube.com ...


TOPICS: History; Science; Travel
KEYWORDS: anatolia; boncuklutarla; catalhoyuk; catalhuyuk; copper; gobeklitepe; godsgravesglyphs; prehistory
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Transcript
0:00·go back to the tape is great and
0:02·deserves all the attention it gets but
0:04·does it have the right kind of attention
0:07·there is another site in southeast
0:09·turkey that is probably going to turn
0:11·out to be far more important than its
0:13·more well-known contemporary let's talk
0:16·about one chocolate
0:17·[Music]
0:23·I think it's fair to say rumor that
0:25·since we we've made the commitment to
0:27·make a series of films called Gobekli
0:30·Tepe to Stonehenge that our Focus has
0:32·been far more on the Middle East and the
0:34·and the Fertile Crescent and more we
0:37·look the more complex and Nuance the
0:39·whole development of farming culture and
0:41·Mesopotamia seems to become
0:44·and the more we look the more the idea
0:46·of quebeco Tepe being the ground zero of
0:49·civilization becomes less and less
0:51·tenable in fact it becomes downright
0:53·misleading what do you think I think
0:56·that's a good way of putting it it is
0:57·misleading and in actual fact it's quite
0:59·bizarre really that for the length of
1:01·time that we have we've been hearing
1:03·about quebecue tape is almost Ground
1:04·Zero
1:06·um and you know the oldest sophisticated
1:08·uh settlement if you like but it turns
1:12·out that there's actually quite a few uh
1:15·dating back so this sort of length of
1:17·time uh you know talking about you know
1:19·a ten eleven thousand years and more and
1:22·here we are at Urban chocolate talking
1:24·about something that's almost 13
1:27·000 years old it's remarkable how far
1:31·back this goes yeah and I think the
1:35·important thing if I'm reading this
1:36·right about Montauk is not how far back
1:40·it goes but the breadth of time that it
1:43·was occupied and so it's able to win the
1:47·excavations are complete uh it'll be
1:50·able to tell and far broader story about
1:53·that time I mean it spans the time of
1:56·the
1:57·um the younger dryas
2:00·yes yes which is uh so so the settlement
2:03·as a whole uh was uh was we can't say
2:07·for certain that it was permanently
2:09·inhabited for this length of time but
2:11·certainly it was inhabited for 4 000
2:15·years more or less before it was
2:17·abandoned about 8 000 years ago it's
2:20·just staggering
2:22·so much
2:24·discovered it's in the it's quite a way
2:27·from
2:28·um
2:30·but just over 300 kilometers away to to
2:34·the east
2:35·uh in modern Province uh discovered
2:38·first in 2008 uh during prospecting uh
2:43·prospective digging
2:45·um for the uh what is it the ILS Dam
2:50·um the um but serious excavations have
2:54·been undertaken since
2:56·2012. uh and I think the the main
3:00·archaeologist responsible at the moment
3:02·I don't know if he was involved when
3:04·back in 2012 was uh Dr Ergo kodash of
3:09·the University of um Mardin
3:12·um so
3:13·the little astonishing thing is
3:16·excavations have been going on for quite
3:18·some time last I read was that they've
3:22·only
3:23·um done about five percent of what they
3:26·think yeah
3:30·the whole the whole size extends it's
3:32·about three hectares in size and and yes
3:37·they've excavated five percent of this I
3:39·mean that's so Lord knows what else
3:41·they're going to find under there
3:42·there's
3:44·they are sophisticated architectural
3:46·structures maybe we should uh probably I
3:49·do you know what let's mention just to
3:51·get it out of the way yeah bun chocolate
3:53·it means the field of beads yeah they've
3:57·they've found in their excavations they
3:58·found about a hundred thousand beads
4:01·here and some of them are carved into
4:04·the shapes of animals as uh uh even
4:08·carvings of uh so scorpions for example
4:11·some of the pendants are yeah yeah
4:15·um and uh uh what else there's extensive
4:18·use of copper at the site
4:21·um in fact the archaeologist was saying
4:22·it was surprised at the extensive use of
4:25·cobbler so I made a note somewhere that
4:27·that over over all the rest of the sites
4:30·uh in Anatolia they've found a few
4:33·hundred uh copper items but here they
4:36·found what was it two thousand yeah it's
4:39·just and when you think of the age of
4:41·the site that's what makes all these
4:43·details that much more surprising
4:46·um and respect to the Copper it's
4:49·important to say we're not talking about
4:50·copper tools here
4:53·there are so far anyway
4:57·um the only copper items that have been
4:58·Unearthed are
5:00·um copper ornaments worked into shapes
5:03·scorpions is the uh seems to be the top
5:06·Motif yeah so far yeah
5:10·um yeah so you're not good going
5:13·uh but also culturally you know that
5:15·they uh they found earrings uh and lip
5:20·rings as well so so again this is a
5:23·practice that uh that might go back a
5:25·lot further than we would previously
5:27·have imagined it's uh yeah just more
5:29·detail and we're talking the kind of
5:32·earring that new needs piercing the kind
5:34·of lip ring that needs piercing so we're
5:38·getting much more colorful images out of
5:40·here than to my knowledge that you ever
5:44·have seemed to come out of the bakla
5:45·tape yeah and I think that's the
5:47·important thing
5:49·that out of this tiny area of the in
5:54·what will be the entire excavation the
5:56·entire settlement five percent were told
5:59·that all this
6:02·um this material culture is coming out
6:04·which
6:05·uh dwarfs what's been coming out of go
6:08·back to Tampa oh what's been focused on
6:10·it go back to Tepe should I say I mean
6:12·that I I'm quite open to be corrected
6:14·about that and maybe you know Lee Claire
6:16·at Rebecca you know we'll have a
6:18·different story to tell but I think in
6:22·the Public Image certainly you know the
6:24·focus of quebecue topic has been on the
6:26·structures it has been on the on the T
6:28·pillars on the the central buildings the
6:32·special buildings
6:33·here we're actually getting close to
6:35·people like I said we've got a much more
6:39·colorful image of people because those
6:42·beads I mean I hope when we go to Turkey
6:45·we'll get to the modern museum where so
6:48·many of these artifacts are kept
6:52·and some of the videos I've seen where
6:55·the beads have been assembled you know
6:57·in uh as neck ornaments and all the rest
7:00·of it they're really quite beautiful and
7:02·elaborate yeah
7:04·um
7:04·and and some of them highly polished as
7:06·well
7:07·intricately worked so uh more surprises
7:11·yeah
7:13·um I think building wise you know we
7:16·tend to when we look at Gecko Tepe for
7:19·example and so there's the similarity of
7:23·architectural uh structure that we can
7:25·see here as well but fascinating here is
7:28·that
7:29·uh you have these communal buildings
7:31·they call them communal buildings
7:34·um that uh that they were sunk into the
7:36·ground so you still have these Sterling
7:38·the the upright pillars uh but they're
7:41·sunk into the ground uh so that it's
7:45·almost a Subterranean building that you
7:47·access through the roof and uh and the
7:50·archaeologists say that the residential
7:51·buildings where people are actually
7:53·living were on the surface so you had
7:56·these surface dwelling houses but these
7:58·Subterranean uh communal buildings
8:00·that's interesting you have to wonder
8:02·what went on and yeah yeah
8:05·um fascinated you know the uh it's
8:08·supposed to be the first window
8:11·um which is interesting because uh as
8:15·you say it seems to have been a roof
8:17·Skylight that provided exit and entrance
8:21·the units and entrance was through the
8:23·roof nothing no doors or no side windows
8:28·or something like that so although we're
8:30·describing or they have been described
8:32·as public places as communal places
8:36·um in reality they must have been quite
8:39·dark and quite you know enclosed spaces
8:43·not really that much room for
8:46·yes it's it's an interesting people to
8:49·gather yeah it's an interesting
8:50·distinction to make isn't it because
8:52·they make the differentiation because uh
8:56·you can see when there's signs of
8:58·domestication so they know in the houses
9:00·there's signs of people living there
9:01·whether it's a hearth that might be
9:03·outside or what have you there's there's
9:05·something about them that shows that
9:06·people live there uh whereas these
9:09·communal buildings there's no signs of
9:11·of the Domesticity so that doesn't
9:14·really tell you that when they say it's
9:16·a communal building or a public building
9:17·it could be that that's public use in
9:20·whatever way it doesn't necessarily mean
9:22·that people were spending time inside
9:24·them yeah yeah
9:27·before we um go too much deeper I think
9:32·first of all I think a little bit of a
9:34·word from our sponsors and our sponsors
9:36·are of course uh our patreon supporters
9:40·um yeah how many are there of them
9:43·283
9:46·this moment but the other fascinating
9:49·statistic about our patreon page is you
9:52·know it's been going for a bit while now
9:54·they're well over 400 items of exclusive
9:57·material on that unseen by anybody else
10:01·so if you're into this kind of stuff
10:03·there's loads more on our patreon page
10:05·available to folk for
10:08·um five dollars a month you can join our
10:11·wonderful uh Community who are wonderful
10:13·they're so supportive and and a good
10:16·Bunch have a look in the description
10:17·below and also don't forget to like And
10:20·subscribe it all helps the wheels go
10:23·turn around a bit fast makes the boat go
10:26·faster should we put it that way it does
10:28·well said yes
10:30·uh anyway on with the show
10:33·um what I was going to say was you
10:36·kicked off I sort of set the question
10:37·and you kicked on saying how many other
10:40·sites you know beside bonjoklatala that
10:43·there are in the area and we just need
10:46·to sort of say a few words about that if
10:49·you've got names on the tip of tip of
10:51·your tongue on the tip of my tongue well
10:54·um there's the better known
10:56·um apart from there's um Caravan Tepe of
10:59·course which was that's been
11:01·there's quite a lot of excavation that's
11:03·been going on there for some years now
11:06·um but we shouldn't ignore the uh the
11:10·other sites that that fit around this
11:12·same time period going further south as
11:14·well like Jericho and uh and why did
11:18·fainan in Jordan which is uh again the
11:20·same uh sort of age well I think that
11:23·there's a another very important place
11:28·um which I think is probably just over
11:30·the Border
11:32·I hate to mention borders actually
11:34·because it sort of gives an impression
11:36·of a divide that would not have been
11:39·there so yeah uh would not have been
11:43·that far away back in the day and of
11:46·course we're talking
11:48·um another site that predates
11:51·but shows signs of the same kinds of
11:54·stuff going on uh in terms of
11:58·um her grain storage Silo storage of
12:02·grain so you know the farming and
12:05·agriculture uh well in full swing there
12:09·and the same kind of settlement
12:12·um things going on and that's just um
12:16·uh in Northern Syria is it or is it Iraq
12:21·I don't remember now I think it's
12:22·Northern Syria
12:24·um I don't remember to be honest yeah
12:27·yeah
12:28·um but there's no end of other Tepe
12:31·sites as well uh to mention I don't know
12:35·if any trip off the tongue uh obviously
12:38·we know of uh of Karan Tepe
12:41·um um well yeah I can't think for the
12:45·moment
12:46·because
12:47·um oh well we can snip this bit out
12:49·can't we oh no okay I'll tell you what
12:51·I've I've found something I can I can
12:53·knock off the top as hams on tap it kind
12:56·of untapped bro I've said that Sefa Tepe
12:59·[Music]
13:00·um
13:03·um
13:09·and the list goes on
13:12·um yeah
13:15·so uh I'll tell you something that uh
13:19·that I found really fascinating here
13:21·that uh something that's not unusual
13:24·culturally is that the burials were
13:28·beneath the houses so you so people were
13:31·buried where they had lived why put them
13:34·anywhere else there was no external
13:37·Cemetery for example people were buried
13:39·uh in their own houses and in a couple
13:42·of instances
13:44·they found couples buried together so
13:48·people in buried in an Embrace that's
13:52·only in two graves that they found that
13:54·but um but even so that is
13:57·uh that's quite poignant isn't it you
13:59·know what's the story behind that and
14:01·obviously we'll never know
14:03·um
14:04·but uh but certainly there was that and
14:06·then there was another grave they found
14:07·that contained I think it was three
14:09·children in one grave
14:11·um but uh then there was a practice of
14:16·uh after a period of time they would
14:19·uncover the burials and remove the
14:22·skulls only and uh and take them to be
14:26·placed somewhere else so that's an
14:29·interesting cultural yeah and it's not
14:31·just a fun chocolate the evidence is
14:35·confirming evidence that goes back to
14:38·other sites to around about thirteen
14:41·thousand uh BCE
14:44·and continues actually the practice of
14:47·um uh internment you know within the
14:51·domestic setting
14:54·um the retrieval of uh of skulls the
14:58·sort of skull curation aspect as well
15:00·seems to have lasted right through to
15:03·about 7000 BCE
15:05·[Music]
15:07·um and I think that is one area where
15:10·among chocolate Tyler that it's
15:12·confirming the practice it seems it was
15:15·a bit it's a bit a bit sketchy but think
15:18·of that it's another bit of color this
15:19·was a practice that would have been
15:21·going on you know the culture that was
15:23·inhabiting and the other teppo sites in
15:26·in the area yeah
15:28·um
15:29·so the whole thing is just so much more
15:34·full of color and diversity and
15:38·the fact that we get sort of different
15:41·uh
15:42·um Spectrum a different spectrum of what
15:45·was going on from each site you know the
15:49·the
15:51·broadly similar but each site sort of
15:54·brings A New Perspective uh to to like
15:57·it's it's quite astonishing and and
16:00·wonderfully complex is there anything
16:04·else that I think one other thing that
16:06·is certainly worth mentioning bearing in
16:08·mind the age of this site is that
16:11·they're pretty sure they the
16:13·archaeologists are pretty sure that
16:15·they've actually revealed an 11 800 year
16:19·old sewage system
16:21·uh now that's uh you know that's a
16:26·significant level of sophistication to
16:28·be building into structures uh that's
16:32·that impressed me I have to say yeah
16:34·and the the question is bearing in mind
16:38·that only five percent or so of the site
16:42·has been excavated so far and has so far
16:45·uh brought out such riches in terms of
16:48·Illumination of the culture and what
16:51·people were interested in you know how
16:53·they were adorning themselves etc etc
16:56·just how much more is going to come out
17:00·at this particular
17:01·excavation we'll just put a silly number
17:04·on that a hundred thousand beads and
17:06·they've excavated five percent yeah and
17:09·they're a thirty Thirty houses
17:12·yeah and the the seven communal uh
17:15·buildings as well in the center of this
17:18·community you know I what I suspect goes
17:23·on at a lot of these sites and I think
17:26·to a large degree the
17:29·um domestic attributes of aspects of all
17:33·these sites are tend to be sidelined
17:36·when they're possibly some of the more
17:38·important aspects
17:40·um you know as far as day-to-day life is
17:43·concerned
17:45·um you know
17:47·um Excavating and only Excavating
17:49·Westminster Abbey is not going to tell
17:51·you much about you know the daily lives
17:53·of
17:55·is it uh and one thing I do suspect is
18:00·that these were you know though we've
18:02·got sort of Village size that's
18:04·indicated by the excavation so far I
18:08·suspect the community was actually
18:10·pretty large to in order to support in
18:13·all these sites in order to support the
18:16·building of such a massive
18:18·um or you know la
18:20·uh communal buildings or special
18:22·buildings
18:25·um that we've seen that the inhabit that
18:29·the community would extend beyond what
18:32·we see built I suspect you know in good
18:35·medieval castle fashion the
18:38·Castle will extend far beyond the castle
18:40·walls or the community that supports the
18:43·castle it's extended Way Beyond uh the
18:46·castle walls
18:48·um so you know that is speculation
18:50·because
18:51·it's hardly likely that we're going to
18:53·find evidence of you know a tented or
18:57·you know wooden Pole or wooden buildings
19:00·beyond the stone building yeah but it's
19:03·a strongly suspect that may be the case
19:05·in order to support the numbers to in
19:07·order to have the numbers that support
19:09·such building and such concentration
19:12·um in uh you know what must have been a
19:15·hierarchy I think and that is another
19:18·aspect into in terms of the all of these
19:21·communities all of these settlements
19:23·that they display
19:26·um that there must have been an
19:28·organizational Factor here that speaks
19:32·to uh when you factor in as well that uh
19:35·that they've they've found evidence for
19:37·textiles as well which shouldn't be a
19:41·surprise but when you actually start
19:43·thinking about what it takes to weave
19:46·class
19:48·um so you've got weaving of cloth you've
19:50·got the uh the fashioning of beads and
19:55·and ornaments some of which are quite
19:57·sophisticated all these things take time
20:00·and uh so you're talking about a people
20:04·who actually have enough time on their
20:06·hands to be doing a lot of these things
20:09·all right they're not going to sit down
20:11·in the evening and do half of the things
20:12·that we take for granted now they would
20:15·have a lot of after Dark
20:17·uh time to fill but nevertheless there
20:21·was so much I think that the uh there's
20:24·even one of these Stella that has a
20:26·carving uh on this one has depictions of
20:28·uh of people wearing skirts and tunics
20:33·okay I'm not sure about that I think
20:35·that was a general observation that was
20:37·made about some other sites that uh you
20:41·know the idea of uh wearing of garments
20:45·Etc I think where was he talking about a
20:47·uh okay well you can snip that out I'll
20:49·have to uh no it's all right
20:52·enough we can do
20:54·um I'm just trying to think because that
20:56·was something that I I just made a note
20:59·of at the time but I don't remember
21:01·I think it was a general point that he
21:03·made that that yes they have found
21:04·materials at the site but it doesn't
21:07·tell us anything about you know what in
21:11·themselves they don't tell us anything
21:12·about what people were wearing but he
21:14·said that Elsewhere on some of the sites
21:16·where there are carvings we've seen
21:18·depictions of people wearing um you know
21:21·tunics and skirts that's that's what he
21:24·said
21:25·so there we are
21:27·um
21:27·so merely many talking points to come
21:30·out of this and I hope you know really
21:32·begins to illuminate the diversity and
21:36·the multifaceted aspect of excavations
21:40·in the Levant and the uh and Mesopotamia
21:45·and how gabakley tapi rather Narrows our
21:50·Focus fantastic though the site is you
21:53·know it does tend to narrow our focus
21:55·and and blind uh the the sort of public
22:00·Consciousness about the breadth of and
22:04·diversity of the other sites in the area
22:07·that are providing far more uh
22:09·information I think that's about where I
22:12·think we should end this little
22:15·conversation and hope that it's
22:17·illuminated uh you know many factors
22:19·that you weren't aware of before
22:20·anything else you want to add to that no
22:23·I think you're right I think it just
22:25·shows that the the the deeper the Deep
22:29·electric the the further back in time we
22:32·find that these levels of sophistication
22:35·were were thriving so yeah I'm sure
22:38·there's still many surprises to come out
22:40·of this site anyway yeah I'm sure there
22:42·are many elements you know that will
22:44·have missed and emitted from our short
22:46·uh Breeze through these things and uh a
22:51·bunch of chocolate itself but I hope you
22:53·enjoyed that anyway as I say uh do have
22:56·a look at our patreon page hit the like
22:57·And subscribe thank you so much uh for
23:00·watching and uh we'll see you all again
23:03·very soon I hope all the best for now
23:06·cheerio
23:12·[Music]
23:18·sweet

1 posted on 06/02/2023 6:13:45 AM PDT by SunkenCiv
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To: SteveH; Sawdring; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 1ofmanyfree; 21twelve; 24Karet; ...
Aha, I found the vid that was in my related vids a week or so ago, when I woke one morning, and hadn’t been able to find it since. Hadn’t listened to it, just started it.
[snip] the little astonishing thing is excavations have been going on for quite some time last I read was that they've only um done about five percent of... the whole size extends it's about three hectares in size [/snip]
Granted, this is Turkish archaeology, but it appears that these "Prehistory Guys" don't know much about modern archaeology.

2 posted on 06/02/2023 6:17:25 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (NeverTrumpers are Republicans the same way Liz Cheney is a Republican.)
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The rest of the Gobekli Tepe keyword, sorted:

3 posted on 06/02/2023 6:24:14 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (NeverTrumpers are Republicans the same way Liz Cheney is a Republican.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Sometimes when they talk about these places I think of massive cities laid out.

But here they’re saying the location is about 3 hectares - which is roughly 7 1/2 acres. My home sits on a quarter acre. So the site is basically equivalent to a small subdivision of about 30 suburban houses. Now I don’t know the structure’s vertical component, but assuming 6 people per household (2 elders, 2 kids, 2 parents) that would give a population of roughly 180....a decent sized village no doubt.


4 posted on 06/02/2023 6:28:45 AM PDT by reed13k (For evil to triumph it is only necessary that good men do nothing)
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To: SunkenCiv

TRACES ‘’Boncuklu Tarla’’ Documentary Drama | English Subtitles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJoTIyt0rto


5 posted on 06/02/2023 6:53:56 AM PDT by Farmerbob
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To: SunkenCiv

What about Macho Grande?

I’ll never get over Macho Grande.....................


6 posted on 06/02/2023 6:57:53 AM PDT by Red Badger (Homeless veterans camp in the streets while illegal aliens are put up in hotels.....................)
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To: Farmerbob

Thanks!


7 posted on 06/02/2023 7:12:08 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (NeverTrumpers are Republicans the same way Liz Cheney is a Republican.)
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To: reed13k

“...they’ve excavated five percent yeah and they’re a thirty Thirty houses yeah and the the seven communal uh buildings as well in the center of this community...”

Like Catal Huyuk, this town used the roofs as the “streets”, and entered and exited their homes and other buildings using roof openings, which doubled as the smoke-holes. The outermost structures generally provided the city walls.


8 posted on 06/02/2023 7:27:04 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (NeverTrumpers are Republicans the same way Liz Cheney is a Republican.)
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The rest of the Catal Hoyuk keywords, sorted, duplicates out (other than the duplicates from the earlier posting):

9 posted on 06/02/2023 7:31:56 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (NeverTrumpers are Republicans the same way Liz Cheney is a Republican.)
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To: Red Badger

Or the capital of Phrygia, Gordita. Wait, what?


10 posted on 06/02/2023 7:34:02 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (NeverTrumpers are Republicans the same way Liz Cheney is a Republican.)
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To: Farmerbob

Oh, I’d started watching that one before, I don’t think I’d finished it, or don’t remember anything but the woman of the intro. :^)


11 posted on 06/02/2023 7:37:51 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (NeverTrumpers are Republicans the same way Liz Cheney is a Republican.)
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To: SunkenCiv

what about BONCUKLU TARLA?...............

Wasn’t he the lead singer for AC/DC?...............


12 posted on 06/02/2023 7:41:11 AM PDT by Red Badger (Homeless veterans camp in the streets while illegal aliens are put up in hotels.....................)
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To: Red Badger

Tarla Corcelli used to wait tables in some bar in Boston.


13 posted on 06/02/2023 7:46:06 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (NeverTrumpers are Republicans the same way Liz Cheney is a Republican.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Good old Boncuklu.

Shared many a Gin and Tonic with him at The Tiger Hunter Club.


14 posted on 06/02/2023 8:00:33 AM PDT by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer” )
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To: SunkenCiv

Carla Maria Victoria Angelina Teresa Apollonia Lozupone Tortelli LeBec.......................


15 posted on 06/02/2023 8:01:48 AM PDT by Red Badger (Homeless veterans camp in the streets while illegal aliens are put up in hotels.....................)
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To: Red Badger

The Taco Grande ain’t com’in back.


16 posted on 06/02/2023 8:17:06 AM PDT by GingisK
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To: GingisK

It always comes back...........in a few hours..................


17 posted on 06/02/2023 8:20:46 AM PDT by Red Badger (Homeless veterans camp in the streets while illegal aliens are put up in hotels.....................)
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To: Red Badger

18 posted on 06/02/2023 8:21:47 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (NeverTrumpers are Republicans the same way Liz Cheney is a Republican.)
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To: Red Badger
"what about BONCUKLU TARLA?..............."


19 posted on 06/02/2023 8:45:26 AM PDT by PLMerite ("They say that we were Cold Warriors. Yes, and a bloody good show, too." - Robert Conquest )
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To: SunkenCiv

Cansu Dolas- I imagine she is what Helen of Troy looked like.


20 posted on 06/02/2023 11:02:39 AM PDT by Farmerbob
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