[Antoninus]

For the feast of Saint Gregory the Great which was yesterday on the traditional calendar.

This is quite a long article including additional passages from Saint Gregory the Great, so I'm excerpting.

[Jim W N]

[I]t is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment. Hebrew 9:27.

[AnalogReigns]

And yet, not a word about Purgatory from the Apostles in the New Testament. How sad that Peter, Paul, John, James, Matthew, etc. all missed this important doctrine.

So great that later Christians were so much wiser than them, and finally got it....

[RevelationDavid]

You are preaching a FALSE GOSPEL

You are now rebuked in the Name of Jesus Christ from preaching this false ‘gospel”

Galatians 1:8

“”But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.””

[SkyDancer]

If Purgatory is needed to cleanse souls then why was Yeshua crucified? His dying saved those of us who believe in Him. If Purgatory is needed then it is by works and not the blood of Christ that saves us. Don’t need any more “cleansing”.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Typical heresy of adding to scripture throu bringing ideas to the. I left.

“4th century work by Saint Gregory of Nyssa, ”

Funny they call this “ancient”... more than 500 years after Christ.

There is no purgatory in Scripture.

[jjotto]

Purgatory seems borrowed from the Jewish concept of Gehenna/Gehinnom.

[daniel1212]

In part one of this post, I looked at the vision of Perpetua

One of the most clear references to Purgatory appears in a late 4th century work by Saint Gregory of Nyssa,

about 200 years later, another Gregory—Pope Saint Gregory the Great—was the first to set forth the notion of Purgatory as Catholics now understand it.

Which is already an invalid foundation, for the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the OT and gospels), which is Scripture, especially Acts thru Revelation. In which distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest.

Including RC (which is different than EOs tradition) Purgatory (see post below, by the grace of God). Instead, while retaining much Scriptural Truth, whereby a relative remnant could find salvation thru contrite repentant faith in the risen Lord Jesus, on His account, yet Catholic tradition is a testimony to the progressive accretion of traditions of men which are foreign to the inspired substantive record of the Holy Spirit, from the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility as per Rome (and basically in primary cults) to the Assumption to prayer to created beings in Heaven .

[daniel1212]

Purgatory is based upon a false premise, not only that there is a need for further atonement some sins after death, but that justification is on the basis of actual  righteousness, beginning via "infused” righteousness via the act itself of baptism (and which for infants mean without even having to believe on the Lord Jesus with all their heart, which is contrary to Acts 2:38; 8:36,37; 10:43–47- 15:7–9). And after baptism -  since the unholy sin nature remains - entering Heaven is attained  by attaining perfection of character (if by grace) thru postmortem “purifying punishments” and sufferings, commencing at death in order to be with God in full salvation.
 

And which is contrary to what Scripture most manifestly teaches, which is that of penitent faith  appropriating justification, a faith that purifies the heart (Acts 15:9) and is counted for righteousness (Romans 4:5) and renders one accepted in the Beloved (on His account) and positionally seated together with their Lord in Heaven. (Ephesians 1:6; 2:6) 

 From  where they positionally await the Lord's return and His final subduing of our "vile body," that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body," (Philippians 3:21)and which is the only transformative change after this life that the Scriptures speak of.

At which time is the judgment seat of Christ, which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure) due to the manner of material one built the church with, which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)

However, this saving justifying faith is a faith which effects obedience by the Spirit, (Romans 8:14) in word and in deed, in heart and in life, whereby "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, (Romans 8:4) insofar as we do. 

 And since faith and works go together like light and heat, sometimes they are used interchangeably as to what they effect. And which obedience includes penitent confession when convicted of not pleasing the Object of his faith for salvation, the risen Lord Jesus.

The appeal to the believer is to produce fruit consistent with faith, as a consequence of being accepted in the Beloved (on His account), to be practically (in heart and deed) as they are positionally in Christ, to be as much conformed to the Lord Jesus in this life as we can be, and will be in the resurrection. (Philippians 3:7-21)

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. (Galatians 5:25)

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. (Colossians 3:1-4)

But which progressive practical sanctification is not the cause of the sinner's justification and acceptance in Christ, but testifies to such being a believer, evidencing "things which accompany salvation," (Hebrews 6:9) and fit to be rewarded. (Revelation 3:4) For this faith, as manifested in said obedience, God will recompense (Hebrews 10:35) under grace, even though it is God who motivates and enables all obedience, (Philippians 1:12,13) while the only thing we can and must take credit for it our disobedience.

In contrast to this salvation by effectual faith, is salvation by grace thru works, as in Roman Catholicism, in which, to reiterate, it is taught that by grace one is actually made good enough to be with God via the act of baptism. And which act itself is said to regenerate and render them good enough to go to Heaven, and formally justified by their own righteousness.

However, since the carnal nature remains - and in Catholic theology few successfully attain to complete victory over any attachment to sin and perfection of character which is said to be necessary to enter Heaven - then most baptized souls are sent to Roman Catholic (EOs trend to reject Rome's) Purgatory to endure purifying torments to atone for sins they sufficiently failed to provide for while on earth, and to become good enough to enter glory.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states, “whosoever comes into God's presence must be perfectly pure for in the strictest sense His "eyes are too pure, to behold evil" (Habakkuk 1:13).

The Catholic Encyclopedia also states that St. Augustine "describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness" etc. (City of God XXI.24.)

And thus by the close of the fourth century was taught "a place of purgation..from which when purified they "were admitted unto the Holy Mount of the Lord". For " they were "not so good as to be entitled to eternal happiness".

One "cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested." (Catholic Encyclopedia>Purgatory)

CCC 1023: Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ...(provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . . or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, . . .)

"Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected." - John Paul II, Audiences, 1999.

Catholic professor Peter Kreeft states,

"...we will go to Purgatory first, and then to Heaven after we are purged of all selfishness and bad habits and character faults." Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer, p. 224

"The purpose of purgatory is to bring you up the level of spiritual excellence needed to experience the full-force presence of God." (Jimmy Akin, How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants).

There is some wiggle room as regards the conditions of purgatory since what this suffering actually entails, and how long, for such are are not dogmatically taught, but while salvation by grace thru faith as in sola fide means it is effectual faith being imputed for righteousness that justifies, salvation by grace thru works means that by grace one is actually made good enough to be with God, which premise either requires perfection of character in this life (and which merely being made clean in baptism would actually not effect) or postmortem purifying torments.

However, wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) Note in the latter case all believers were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord,” though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul. (Phil. 3:7f)

And the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4) At which time is the judgment seat of Christ, which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure) due to the manner of material one built the church with, which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)

In addition, the whole premise that suffering itself perfects a person is specious, since testing of character requires being able to choose btwn alternatives, and which this world provides. Thus it is only this world that Scripture peaks of here development of character, such as "Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations." (1 Peter 1:6)

And even in making the Lord "perfect" as in experiencing testing, being "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin," (Hebrews 4:15) then it was in this world: "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." (Hebrews 2:10)

For support,  Catholics cite 2 Maccabees  12;44-46 (atonement for the dead to free them from sin ).

However, of what support is that of praying for men whom the text clearly stated were slain for their idolatry, which is a mortal sin? Meanwhile believing this book was Scripture proper was not required until after Luther died, almost 1400 years after the last book was penned.

Other texts which Catholic  often attempt t use for support are as follows:

•  1 Peter 3:18-20;4:6 ( Peter preaching to the spirits in prison ) ,

Which was to the lost souls like those of Noah's day, "wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water," and it is obvious they had not attained to perfection of character. But with His resurrection (Matthew 27:52) the Lord set free those in Abraham's bosom, (Ephesians 4:8,9) which is not purgatory but OT paradise (Luke 23:43) which is now Heaven. (2 Corinthians 12:4) • 1 Cor 15:29-30 and 1 cor 15:29-30 (baptizing the dead)

You resort to that for support? So do the Mormons, and it supports nothing than was it was invoked for, that of their being a resurrection which some ("they," not "we") thought postmortem baptism would effect, but with nothing inferred as purgatory. And which the Holy Spirit would never fail to clearly teach on, if it indeed was of Catholic importance. • 1 Cor 315 (saved through fire)

Utterly invalidated as explained above in bold, by God's grace. • Mt 5:26 (where you will not be released until you pay the last penny)

So you must resort to dark sayings. Rather than Matthew 5:25-26 being "explicit about Purgatory" as Staples imagines this either refers to this life, or punishment in Hell, which is the context of Matthew 5:24-25 (Matthew 5:22; Matthew 5:27-29; cf. Mark 9:43), and Caths argue (Mt. 1:25) that "until" need not mean a terminus is inferred.

And here this story cannot be analogous to purgatory, since that is for forgiven souls who have some expiation to make for venial sins, but in Matthew 5:22-26, rather than a mere venial sin, the description here is of a "mortal sin." And neither was this man forgiven, but was damned, and given the vast amount he had to pay, i think "Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing" (Matthew 5:26) is saying he never will come out, • Mt 12:32 (sin is forgiven in this age or the next)

That is simple, except Rome rejects the 1,000 year reign of Christ in which there will be sin and forgiveness of sins, as Ezekiel shows in his many chapters which defy then as being mere allegory. • 1 John 5:16-17 (degrees of sin distinguished)

Which refers to apostasy, and there are degrees of sin, and of accountability and guilt, thus degrees of punishment, (Matthew 11:20-24) but which description are only about Hell, not some interim place.

• Mark 9:49 (all will be salted by fire)

Which is simply another example of the egregious extrapolation you must resort to in order attempt to postulate some sort of support for what you can only wish Scripture manifestly taught, but which it does not!
Here the only postmortem reality that is seen in the context is that of Hell: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:48) and otherwise it speaks of salt (Mark 9:49,50; cf. Lev. 2:13; Eze 43:24) which represent holiness, which works for peace, and one either has it or they are good for nothing, (Mt. 5:13) and and there is nothing that infers purgatory in order to get it or more of it, though this would be one of many places we could expect to see it if it were true.

[HarleyD]

"...But yet we must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins: because our Savior says, “That he which speaketh blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come [Matthew 12:32]."

Why on earth would you believe there is a Purgatory fire from this verse? You're not going to be forgiven in this world or the next. It is wrong to assume that you will be forgiven in the next. The text does not state that.

This is a great example of how to develop heretical theology. Someone has a thought. Another builds slightly incorrectly on that thought. And still another until you are off the rails. If a person can get a group of people to believe that they know what they are talking about-POOF-new doctrine.

[boatbums]

Yet we have here further to consider, that none can be there purged, no, not for the least sins that be, unless in his lifetime he deserved by virtuous works to find such favor in that place.

It's a shame Pope Gregory the Great didn't understand that our "virtuous works" are NOT what causes us to deserve salvation. According to the word of God, we can NEVER deserve, merit or earn eternal life - that is why we are saved by grace through faith and not ourselves LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.

I know he knows that now.

[Elsie]

In part one of this post, I looked at the vision of Perpetua—one of the earliest authentic Christian documents to describe directly a Purgatory-like state and to highlight the efficacy of prayer petitions for the dead.

From here; we build on NOTIONS.

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1 John 4 English Standard Version (ESV)

1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. 4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

[Elsie]

“That he which speaketh blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come [Matthew 12:32].”

Here we see Gregory offering a scriptural proof for Purgatory, out of the mouth of Jesus Himself.

 

HUH??

[Elsie]

Gregory then goes on to explain St. Paul’s meaning...

SURE he does!!

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Genesis 3:1

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

[kalee]

Book Mark for later

[PeterPrinciple]

“…It is plain that in such state as a man departs out of this life, in the same he is presented in judgment before God. But yet we must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins.

---

Read the above slowly and let your lips move.

It is plain, yet we must believe something different.

[PeterPrinciple]

The application of the “doctrine” of purgatory is the most repulsive and should be a warning.

1) “if you give enough money to the church, we can get you relatives out of purgatory or at least sooner...........”

2) “Don’t work about that little sin, we can work that out in purgatory.”

3) “We can make an arrangement where that extra holiness of a saint can be used to help your dead relative in purgatory.”