Posted on 09/11/2022 5:05:02 PM PDT by Roman_War_Criminal
My book “The End Times” will be out soon.
My goal is to clear up and understand what is coming soon, to promote the Gospel of the Grace of Christ, to comfort those who know Jesus, and warn the rest to please board the Ark of Heaven, Jesus Christ who will whisk away to Heaven those who belong to him before it all comes crashing down on earth.
Because Revelation contains a lot of symbolism doesn’t mean it’s not true, or that there are no incorrect ways to interpret it. Jesus often spoke in parables, and would translate their true meaning to his disciples. The symbolic nature is there to underscore the true spiritual meaning of events rather than leave them open to reinterpretation depending on how you wanted to look at them.
Bkmk
trying to interpret revelation is a fools errand
The Greek is ambiguous. It could mean that Revelation was written in the AD 90s, or it could mean that John (the John who wrote Revelation) was alive in the AD 90s.
Rapture friend told me since the church is not mentioned after chapter 3 in Revelation, it means the church was taken out in the Rapture. I told her that Revelation wasn’t written in chapter and verse. That didn’t come about until the 16th. century when it was divided into chapter and verse.
I’m on the fence, so this is not an antagonistic question: for pre-trib folks, what to say to the persecuted in the ME, China, Africa, etc? They’ve been told they will be raptured before the tribulation, yet they suffer tribulation. This is weekly convo for my mother and me. Again, not looking for fight.
My belief; there is no rapture. There is only the second coming of Jesus. The rapture is a false teaching.
Ok after John hears the words “Come up here”. The church is not mentioned again.
There’s a difference between experiencing tribulation here on earth, which we all experience and Jesus said we would have, and the time of the Tribulation that is the judgment of God on an unbelieving world.
One is a common noun, just troubles in general.
The Tribulation, the seven year one, is a specific time period for a specific purpose.
I can’t figure why some people insist that we’re all going to go through the Tribulation. They disbelieve that God will remove His church before he judges the world. It’s like they are gruesomely delighted with the thought of us experiencing it.
Why? What Scriptural support do you have for your position?
Fair question.
Jesus told us, "In the world you will have tribulation but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world" (John 16:33). Paul said of his life and our lives, "We will suffer tribulation" (1 Thessalonians 3:4) and "[W]e glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation works patience" (Romans 5:3). There are many other scriptures also about the glories we have inherited because of Christ in us and us in Christ, coupled with tribulations, mainly because the world, the flesh, and the devil is where we live until we go to Heaven to be with Jesus.
The 70th Week of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27) AKA the 7-yeqar tribulation is, as Forrest Gump would say, "Is whole other country." The seven year "tribulation" and "great tribulation" is God's wrath poured out upon an unrepentant world. God's children are not appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). We are God's children through Christ who he loves us. The persecutions of Christians around the world now are because Satan hates God and hates God's people. It's Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. God will never be angry with us because Jesus bore all of God's wrath on his body 2000 years ago. God loves his own and has a special place for those who endure tribulation and suffering.
God's people need to understand that the "Rapture" or the "Great Catching Up" of the saints into Heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:17) will actually launch Daniel's 70th Week AKA the seven-year tribulation on earth which will be more horrific than anyone can imagine (don't be afraid, you'll be in heaven with Jesus). Before the first 3 1/2 years are over, half the world will have been killed. By the end of the seven years the whole world will have been slaughtered except for a tiny remnant of Jews hiding in the mountains of Jordan.
Anyone who talks about "mid-trib" or "post trib" hasn't paid attention to or doesn't understand the details of what unimaginably horrific events happen during that seven years and haven't read or understood scriptures that says those seven years are the Wrath of the Lamb and that we, his children, are not appointed to God's wrath but to his love and salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9).
Hope that helps. Read the refenced scriptures carefully and prayerfully and ask God for wisdom and understanding.
God bless.
“They’ve been told they will be raptured before the tribulation, yet they suffer tribulation.”
Indeed. Many scriptures support the necessity for believers to go through trials, tribulations, persecutions, and adversities. The debate has been made over whether Church-age believers will go through the time period known as the Great Tribulation. I’m of the opinion that, yes, they (or we, if we survive until the rapture) will go through the Great Tribulation. Other Bible-believing Christians hold differing views.
Acts 14:22 (NKJV)
[They were] strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”
I was persuaded many years ago to believe in what is commonly called the pre-wrath rapture.
At the heart of this view is the distinction between the Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord.
There are many reasons I find this more persuasive than other views of the timing of the rapture. One example is that the sign of the sun and moon being darkened (apparently simultaneously) occurs AFTER the Great Tribulation but BEFORE the Day of the Lord.
Matthew 24:29 (NKJV)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Acts 2:20 (NKJV)
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
Martin Luther’s Preface to the Revelation of St. John (1522)
About this Book of the Revelation of John, I leave everyone free to hold his own opinions. I would not have anyone bound to my opinion or judgment. I say what I feel. I miss more than one thing in this book, and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic.
First and foremost, the apostles do not deal with visions, but prophesy in clear and plain words, as do Peter and Paul, and Christ in the gospel. For it befits the apostolic office to speak clearly of Christ and his deeds, without images and visions. Moreover there is no prophet in the Old Testament, to say nothing of the New, who deals so exclusively with visions and images. For myself, I think it approximates the Fourth Book of Esdras; I can in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it.
Moreover he seems to me to be going much too far when he commends his own book so highly [Revelation 22]—indeed, more than any of the other sacred books do, though they are much more important—and threatens that if anyone takes away anything from it, God will take away from him, etc. Again, they are supposed to be blessed who keep what is written in this book; and yet no one knows what that is, to say nothing of keeping it. This is just the same as if we did not have the book at all. And there are many far better books available for us to keep.
Many of the fathers also rejected this book a long time ago; although St. Jerome, to be sure, refers to it in exalted terms and says that it is above all praise and that there are as many mysteries in it as words. Still, Jerome cannot prove this at all, and his praise at numerous places is too generous.
Finally, let everyone think of it as his own spirit leads him. My spirit cannot accommodate itself to this book. For me this is reason enough not to think highly of it: Christ is neither taught nor known in it. But to teach Christ, this is the thing which an apostle is bound above all else to do; as Christ says in Acts 1[:8], “You shall be my witnesses.” Therefore I stick to the books which present Christ to me clearly and purely.
Luther had no right to reject any of the New Testament books.
Christian persecution has been here since the church began. So the rapture is not about avoiding persecution but it is Christ taking His bride (the believers) home before the Lamb’s wrath is released on God hating world in the tribulation. During this time God uses the two witness and the 144 thousand sealed Jewish believers to proclaim gospel and the coming Kingdom of Christ. There will be intense persecution as Satan, the antichrist and false prophet work to destroy all Jews and all believers in Jesus.
And please, in your response to metmom, don’t even try to say it was Darby and Margaret Macdonald.
We can only know for sure after the fact but we could be in the tribulation already. So many things about the present situation resemble end time prophecy but there are many who say “these are just foreshadowing for worse things that will happen later.” Will people keep saying this as the world descends further into sin, chaos and despair? At what point do you reach the “real” end time? This is perhaps why nobody knows the date, not from a lack of signs, but this continual ebb and flow — you could have certainly made a case for the approach of the end time from 1939 to 1945 yet as far as we know, Jesus did not return after that and certainly there was no event like “every eye shall see him,” he could only have returned in secret.
Personally I think it quite possible that all signs are being verified which perhaps makes this a rather soft tribulation but evidently one without a rapture since here we all are.
I fall into the camp that the Book of Revelation is a book that covers the past, present and future. Both when it was written, and for today (and tomorrow).
Believers were being persecuted back when the scripture was written - and it was a message of hope for them. God wins!
It is also a message of hope for the persecuted Church today, and tomorrow. Yes it looks bad - but God wins. He already HAS won.
At the moment, I don’t believe in the rapture, but that isn’t a huge thing to me. Maybe Christians will, but there are a lot of situations where God has left His believers in bad situations. Imprisonment in Egypt for generations, wandering in the desert for 40 years, exile to Babylon, persecution by the Romans, etc. I believe that today we are supposed to help point folks to Christ, and will be there to the very end doing it as well. I know of some churches in Africa that despite the persecution are shining a light on Jesus and His Grace. Hutus and Tuttsi’s that worship God together, even though their parents and families had been murdered by those same people!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.