Natalee Holloway Extended Discussion Thread 20

[RGVTx]

Natalee Holloway - Extended Thread 1

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[RGVTx]

Sounds like a volatile situation in Aruba.
Protesters and power outages makes for a bad situation.

[imaketypos]

Sounds like one happy little island to me.

[IIntense]

You'd be surprised how simple it was that night.

I think we have to consider Deepak's command of the English language for starters. He may not phrase his words in the same way we do.

If the tape is translated, it won't give an exact word-for-word result.

His meaning may have been that he did not have sex with Natalee but he easily could have and "you'd be surprised" if you knew why it would have been so simple. Here he could be referring to her physical condition at the time, or the vulnerabllity...alone somewhere with one, two or three guys she didn't really know.

IMO, the truth is that nobody other than the perps involved, and anyone they confided in with the real facts, knows what went on that morning, what caused Natalee's death, and where her body is.

Joran, the Kalpoes and Paulus all look guilty of something to me, and there may be others.

To compound the unsolved case, the Holloway/Twittys have had to rely on, what they soon learned, is an Aruban LES which doesn't have a clue of how to properly investigate, which they've proven by their shoddy methods. Aruba has also made it known to anyone paying attention, that their efforts to find the truth are bogus.

Is the corruption there causing this, or is it an attempt to cover up the corruption?

I'd like to see a nationwide boycott of that island. If what Anita said is a fact, "everybody lies", then "everybody" can pay the price, as far as I'm concerned.

[RGVTx]

I think the KISS rule applies here.
Deepak said exactly what he meant.
Why are we not looking for a different meaning in his words "she looked like a slut...?"
Because we know he said exactly what he meant to say.
"You'd be surprised how simple it was that night" is exactly what Deepak meant to say, IMO.

[RGVTx]

Thanks to Whytegirl at SM for the translation of this Diario article.
------
http://www.scaredmonkeys.net/viewtopic.php?t=189&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=240

OK I will try and translate this but is this editorial complete? It looks like is missing the end. Altruist?

THE CASE OF NATALEE AND THE ARUBAN PEOPLE

I've told the truth many times in Aruba, that people here are not properly taken in consideration at the expense of the authorities, and especially with things that directly concerns us like our well-being, the solidness of our economy, our good name, because our image of being hospitable people is being pushed in a corner and buried in such a way that they are not completely accomplishing it. (?)

They don't do this for their defense, but to accomplish rules that don't work because trying to keep people as ignorants is a thing of the past. At DIARIO we have seen enough happened in one year and we have taken the decision to not hide anything from the people, of not keeping them (at bay at the expense of forgetfulness?)

Notice that all the things we have accomplished happened directly for the people, for them to be kept up of events that happen on this island. In the case of Natalee is no exception, but the confirmation that we don't keep anything at bay is no secret, and anything that falls in our hands we pass along to our readers, so you have the latest news and you can judge on your own all the things that happened in this case.

Yesterday we published the transcription of one conversation with the polis that was recorded in one police vehicle that was transporting the three suspects (Joran, Deepak and Satish) from KIA to the Court of Justice, in Dutch as well as in Papiamento. This is a very revealing document that displays the character of the three suspects, the way they talk, how they put their phrases together and their violence. With this transcription we accomplished to know from the mouth of Joran that his father did put in place defense advocates for the Kalpoe brothers; from Deepak we learned the threat to Joran if they found the murdered body of this young woman or any remains of her that Joran will pay with 15 years in prison; from Joran we listened the threats he made to the Kalpoe brothers if they talked to the police and told what really happened; that Satish hit a young woman with his car; at the end, accusation after counter-accusation, but all based on one categorical knowledge and that is that all three know what really happened to Natalee. Of that there is no doubt whatsoever. This is clearly imprinted from that moment on in the recording of that audio tape.

Joran's lawyer blabbers with his mouth in America like if he was the one great Messiah that knows it all; one of his colleagues accused me of "leaking" the document, when the truth is that this document came in our mailbox the day before yesterday, after all the American TV channels were talking about it and even showing pieces of them; Tacopina pictures Joran as an angel with a halo of pureness; that he is a good student; that he has a scholarship; nevertheless, of all things that he will fly above heaven with a halo of snow.

However, evidence gathered by DIARIO draws a completely different picture of Joran; a violent youngster; bullies smaller children at school (and at home!); a young man without control that interferes with other people inappropriately; a youngster that has no manners in the way he talks; a criminal instinct that was demonstrated all through this transcription when in a moment of anger he wanted to break (smul-face? skull?) and even going as far as to threaten to kill the two Kalpoe brothers; nevertheless, a portrait completely different of Tacopina's.

Why did I revealed the name of Geoffrey? Because that one did nothing in particular, nothing illegal and does not walk around accusing the child of commiting any infraction against the law; what we did is we seeked his identity and reported it so we could know what was going on.

[RGVTx]

From Deetch...an absolute 'must read!'
Outstanding, Deetch.
Hit the link to read it all.

http://www.arubadirtypolice.blogspot.com/

Friday, June 09, 2006
Aruba: Killing A Brand
...it's rough to stay on board, but it sure does give you thick skin. The infighting is a sign of how much intensity there is, still. The downward spiral brings no joy for anyone. Would you have done something different given the chance Aruba?

The quiet in Aruba a kind of perfect justice. Can't you see Julia, Arlene, Croes, Oduber and the Van der sloots huddled in a room trying to guess if they should peek out the door and see if "they" are still out there?

Yes they are, and don't let the quiet fool you. New York or not, nobody is going anywhere. The guilty are just as easy to pursue in Australia as they are in Aruba.

Now "the poor and innocent" are taking to the street. And still, too much pride to ask for help. What other entity started with so much good will, a customer, the U.S. willing to help, and were turned away. Not only turned away but hated, attacked. One of our own, slandered in damage control techniques so outdated. So ineffective.

With the rock painting and Paulus talking with Natalee videos going unanswered for, it looks like "no answer, is the answer."

Anonymous people in anonymous places doing better work than high priced New York lawyers. And they are winning.

I hope it keeps Aruba up at night realizing that their own corruption was not of interest, the media had no market for it before Natalee. And if Aruba had done even a basic investigation and prosecuted this crime, the perceived "secrets" being used as leverage would have had no value, nobody would have cared.

Justice for Natalee would have meant resolution and prosecution, not what it has now become, a complete country under scrutiny and people who have become permanent fixtures in our mind and on our fingers. We didn't want Aruba to say "uncle" we wanted them to say "help." But they just couldn't bring themselves to do it, not for Natalee or for themselves.

*snip*

[MAWG]

" You'd be surprised how simple it was that night."

When you put a double dose of ecstasy in a drink that has 3 ounces of 151 rum in it as well, simple is an understatement. It doesn't matter if he says we did or we didn't ( I cant really tell myself ), his sole purpose in the interview with Skeeters is to deflect any guilt from himself and then to smear Natalees' character. His hatred for American girls is apparent. I believe Joran raped her , that's how he got the scratched up face but I also believe it was Deepak who killed her and I think he killed her with a knife. That is where all of the blood comes from. Satish is the key. He knows what happened and he can be broken.

[imaketypos]

From Deetch...an absolute 'must read!'
Outstanding, Deetch.


Without a doubt, his best yet !!

[imaketypos]

I didn't know if The entire article could be brought over. If it can it should be, especially the picture....

Protesters demand the government to step down

A few thousand people walked over the Boulevard to the chanting of slogans against the government.

ARUBA – To the tune of loud jeers and the slogans baha (step down) and revoca (revoke) of thousands of protesters, Prime Minister Nelson Oduber accepted a manifesto last Thursday evening. In that manifesto, the social partners demand the government to revoke the increase of the import taxes that went into effect on June 1st last, and deliberate with them on the tackling of the financial problems. Oduber’s reaction was just a danki (thanks), but didn’t indulge. He continued to hold to the measures, but did agree to a meeting.

snip

Police-spokesman Papito Comenencia couldn’t tell how many people were in the manifestation. At the end he said that everything went smooth and orderly. The police have talked to the leaders of the manifestation and told them to make sure that everything goes well. Only the government had caused unrest by instituting a lawsuit against the police union SPA that was supposed to be down for hearing during the demonstration. Shortly after SPA-chairman Eric Zaandam has received the citation, he also received the notice that the government had abandoned the case.

Read the rest at:

http://www.amigoe.com/english/

[imaketypos]

Solution for the Guadirikiri-case in sight

ARUBA – “The investigation team in the Guadirikiri-case is making progress. The team seems to be getting closer to figuring out what had really happened”, indicated the spokesperson for the Public Prosecutor Mariaine Croes

One thing they know for sure, Dinesh ‘Pitbull’ Djoegan had died of overdoses cocaine. How the drugs have gotten in his body and by who, is still being investigated. Four suspects were arrested in the past two weeks, of which one, M.L. was taken before the examining judge on Tuesday, who prolonged his detention with 8 days.

The other three suspects were taken before the examining judge on Wednesday. He was of the opinion that L’s girlfriend, V.H.C., was not involved in the case and released her. The detention of other two was also prolonged with 8 days. They are being suspected of murder of Djoegan, whose body will be handed over to the family one of these days.

http://www.amigoe.com/english/

[RGVTx]

Here's the picture and the full article.

Protesters demand the government to step down

A few thousand people walked over the Boulevard to the chanting of slogans against the government.

ARUBA – To the tune of loud jeers and the slogans baha (step down) and revoca (revoke) of thousands of protesters, Prime Minister Nelson Oduber accepted a manifesto last Thursday evening. In that manifesto, the social partners demand the government to revoke the increase of the import taxes that went into effect on June 1st last, and deliberate with them on the tackling of the financial problems. Oduber’s reaction was just a danki (thanks), but didn’t indulge. He continued to hold to the measures, but did agree to a meeting.

When Oduber came outside to accept the manifesto from union-leader Rudy Geerman, he was accompanied by Finance-minister Nilo Swaen, Tourism-minister Edison Briesen, and Public health-minister Booshi Wever. Oduber said that his democratic elected government had decided on the challenged measures to solve the financial problems. He said that the measures were necessary and that his government had no intensions to walk away from the problems. Geerman told the premier that he wants to sit and talk with him that same evening if necessary, but the subject of the import taxes must be on the agenda. Oduber’s answer was that he will meet with the unions on Monday at noon to talk about an agenda, but that he refused to be forced to deliberate.

The message of the protesters was bipartite: one part wants the government to step down and all the protesters want the measures be revoked.

Police-spokesman Papito Comenencia couldn’t tell how many people were in the manifestation. At the end he said that everything went smooth and orderly. The police have talked to the leaders of the manifestation and told them to make sure that everything goes well. Only the government had caused unrest by instituting a lawsuit against the police union SPA that was supposed to be down for hearing during the demonstration. Shortly after SPA-chairman Eric Zaandam has received the citation, he also received the notice that the government had abandoned the case.

Not everybody assembled at the Juliana School. Some decided to wait for the others in the vicinity of the government’s office. A 70-year old retired employee of DOW said that Aruba is deteriorating due to bad leadership of Nelson Oduber. This has to stop.

A supporter of the MEP that works in a hotel admitted that he understands the reason for the action. “The government was better off giving more information and openness of business. People do not understand the standpoint of the government. If the people knew more, there would have been more understanding. He said that the influence on the increased import taxes is already noticeable. Just go take a look in the supermarkets. The prices have already increased, but that is not possible, because the products on the shelves are from before the import tax increase; even the prices of products which expiration dates are almost expired have increased. The supermarket-owners have adjusted the prices too soon. That’s theft!”

Also other protesters said that the government had not deliberated with the social partners in order to come to a structural solution for the government deficits. He measures were taken unilaterally.

Also MPA-leader Monica Kock and her fellow party members and Andin Bikker of DR took part in the manifestation, but in a private capacity.

Many groups were recognizable by their clothing, like members of the SPA (t-shirts with police on it), teachers (with white polo shirts) , management and employees of Garage Cordia (red shirts), and others that took part in the manifestation that the AVP organized, were wearing the same t-shirt with No mas medida that they wore then.

A sound truck went in front of the crowd, followed by union leaders, committee-members of the Chamber of Commerce, and ATIA. The parade had a cheerful aspect with all the flags that the protesters were waving, but there were hardly any spectators along the road. Due to the pushing incident of last week, the police decided to block off the boulevard in front of the government’s office.

ATIA has co-signed the manifesto. Chairman Edwin Roos called the attendance a wake-up call for the government. Vice-chairman Juan Yrausquin said that the manifestation was not political, but organized by the commercial sector. He emphasized again that ATIA would love to sit down and talk with the government about the measures. “We still see other solutions.” Yrausquin had heard that the government wants to meet on Monday. He considers this as a strategy to avoid further protests on Friday. He said that he is not aware of the contents of further protests.

http://www.amigoe.com/english/

[imaketypos]

Looks like one happy little island

[imaketypos]

you hve mail

[imaketypos]

Would someone double check this math equation to see if it might be correct.....

A statement like..it is as if she just disappeared = a travel boycott = a loss of revenue = need for more revenue = higher taxes = an increase of the import taxes = the picture shown above.

On October 24, 2005 BETH said to MSNBC: I met with Prime Minister Oduber. I said, you do not want to turn me loose from this island without an answer

[IIntense]

But I have listened to this over and over. Deepak does not say "She did".

When Skeeters says, "I'm sure she had sex with all three of you", he clearly says, "No she didn't..."

"You'd be surprised how simple it was that night" by D. Kalpoe, regardless of the message it sends to us, would not, in itself, convict him. Yes, he meant what he said but may not have phrased it as we would.. For example: You'd be surprised how easy it would have been..

This is just another point of view...mine, based on what you heard on the tape, truthluva. It's too easy to dismiss it with the KISS rule. I fail to see why a sincere point of view would complicate the discussion.

Really, I'm not sure if his "She looked like a slut" proves they all had sex with Natalee. Again, that wouldn't convict them. But he lied through his teeth when he made that statement. I've seen enough pictures taken of Natalee in her green and white outfit to know she did not look like a slut.

[RGVTx]

You bet it equates!

The Aruban people protested against Beth or sat silent.
They blamed Beth and even Natalee for the island's woes.
Arubans supported their corrupt government and now they will pay the price.

Remember Joe Mamanna said something about the price of soap in Aruba. Guess he was right.

New tourist advisories should include recommendations to bring your own soap and toilet paper when visiting Aruba.

[RGVTx]

Sorry, but I don't do contortion very well.

Did I mean what I said or did I say something else?

[shebacal]

Diario Online

June 10, 2006

MEP = KILL THE PEOPLE!!



We succeeded!

[shebacal]

http://www.aruba-bb.com/viewtopic.php?t=31814&sid=23b113e1f82a21ba8c1a513447171a50

Aruba's National Debt Is $1.1 billion
Posted by Eddy: Thu Jun 01, 2006

ORANJESTAD-President of the Dutch Bank in The Netherlands, Nout Wellink says that government finances have entered the critical phase. In his speech during a meeting organised by the Aruba Chamber of Commerce, he called on the government to do its utmost best to win back the confidence of the public and associations on the island in regard to their policies.

Wellink advises the government to cut back on spending by lowering salaries of government employees and pension. If that does not happen there will be gigantic problems in the mid and long term says Wellink.

Wellink also showed understanding for the present situation on the island. Aruba is by far not the only country in the World facing difficulties in its finances. Governments of small countries are especially under constant pressure from those that have elected them. They want politicians to solve their problems, but they do not want to pay for the solutions says Wellink.

The national debt of Aruba has grown from 28 percent of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in 1999 to 46 percent of the GDP in 2005, approaching percentage levels of that of the U.S. and The Netherlands.

The national debt of Aruba equals an amount of little over $1 billion.

Wellink says that the growing number of people mainly the baby-boomers reaching retirement age, in combination with low growth rates in employee productivity and a lack of measures will lead to an explosive growth in national debt in the next 20 to 30 years.

[shebacal]

http://www.aruba-bb.com/viewtopic.php?t=31812&sid=23b113e1f82a21ba8c1a513447171a50

Measures Disastrous For Island Economy
Posted by Eddy: June 1st 2006, Aruba.

ORANJESTAD-The increase of import duties on luxury products effective as of today will have a negative affect on tourism, the economy and the population, that is the conclusion of the Aruba Trade & Industry Association (ATIA).

According to ATIA it is time for the government to sit down at the table with social partners and together find a solution for the growing problems facing Aruba today. The solution does not lie in increasing import duties on luxury products.

The Aruban community is beginning to absorb the high oil prices on the global market which has already weakened consumer spending and slowed economic growth on the island. It is irresponsible to add more measures on the Aruban community without taking into account the micro and macro economic consequences of such according to ATIA.

ATIA acknowledges that there are external factors that have negatively influenced the island economy. The Natalee Holloway affair plays a major role in that according to the association.

Nevertheless government spending is very high for such a small island according to ATIA. The association refers to the large number of people employed by the government. The International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, the Central Bank of Aruba and a number of independent local and international associations have warned the government for employing too many people.

ATIA believes that the measures now effective will have disastrous consequences for the island economy and should be revoked. Aruba will be expensive for its own citizens and more so for tourists. Clothing, jewellery and watches are the most popular products purchased by cruise passengers. It is very likely that they will all buy the products at cheaper islands included in their cruise itinerary according to ATIA.