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Moving the Orbits of Planets
David Jewitt ^ | Last updated Sep 2004 | David Jewitt

Posted on 02/02/2006 9:44:25 AM PST by SunkenCiv

Meanwhile, the Doppler discovery of extrasolar planets orbiting very close to their parent stars has raised a different problem. Many of the planets are so close to their stars (<0.1 AU), and so hot, that they cannot be supposed to have formed where we now observe them. By inference, they could have formed at larger distances (several AU) and then migrated inwards. What would cause this inward migration? As with the solar system case, the root cause may be an exchange of angular momentum with material surrounding the planets at their formation. In particular, if the extrasolar planets formed in massive disks, then torques between the planets and the disks could drive the former inwards.

Aha, you say, why did they stop? There are several possible answers to this question (including the most brutally honest one "we don't know"). Indeed, they might not have stopped, in the sense that the observed close-in extrasolar planets could be the survivors from a now-defunct armada of planets that plopped into their stars never to be seen again. In this case, what we see is what was left behind after the planetary accretion disk dissipated and the tidal torques disappeared. Another possibility is that inward migration stopped when the planets reached the inner edge of the planetary accretion disk, because then the torques acting to propel them inwards would vanish.

(Excerpt) Read more at ifa.hawaii.edu ...


TOPICS: Astronomy
KEYWORDS: astronomy; catastrophism; xplanets

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1 posted on 02/02/2006 9:44:26 AM PST by SunkenCiv
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Scientists Find Extrasolar Planet With Atmosphere Much Like Jupiter
by John Noble Wilford
March 13, 2003
NYTimes
[T]he planet is so close to the searing heat of its parent star that the dense atmosphere reaches temperatures of about 18,000 degrees Fahrenheit and is boiling off and evaporating at a rate of perhaps 10,000 tons a second. The escaping hydrogen was detected extending across 125,000 miles, trailing the planet like a comet's tail. The scientists said analysis of the observations showed that hydrogen atoms in the extended atmosphere had large velocities relative to the planet. Thus, they concluded, the hydrogen "must be escaping the planetary atmosphere." As a result, astronomers said, the planet may already have lost a considerable amount of its mass. Much of it may eventually disappear, leaving only a dense core about 10 times the mass of Earth... This particular planet -- with a diameter 1.3 times that of Jupiter, and two-thirds its mass -- orbits its star at a distance of only four million miles, so close that it makes a complete circuit every 3.5 days. By comparison, Mercury, the planet closest to the Sun, orbits at a distance of 36 million miles, completing the orbit in 88 days.

2 posted on 02/02/2006 9:46:18 AM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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emphasis added:
Newfound Planetary System Has 'Hometown' Look
NASA
June 13, 2002
55 Cancri simulation
55 Cancri comparison
Dr. Geoffrey Marcy, astronomy professor at the University of California, Berkeley, and astronomer Dr. Paul Butler of the Carnegie Institution of Washington, Washington, D.C., today announced the discovery of a Jupiter-like planet orbiting a Sun-like star at nearly the same distance as the Jovian system orbits our Sun.
Jupiter-Like Planet Could Point to Another Earth
by Robert Roy Britt
13 June 2002
The primary discovery is a gas giant planet that circles a star called 55 Cancri every 13 years, comparable to Jupiter's 11.86-year orbit. The planet is between 3.5 and 5 times as heavy as Jupiter... The new planet orbits 55 Cancri at 5.5 astronomical units (AU). One AU is the distance from Earth to the Sun. Jupiter orbits at 5.2 AU. The same team had already spotted another planet around 55 Cancri, a place slightly less massive than Jupiter. It orbits so close to the star that it makes a complete orbit in just 14.6 days.

3 posted on 02/02/2006 9:46:53 AM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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Rogue Planet Find Makes Astronomers Ponder Theory
by Maggie Fox
October 5, 2000
Eighteen rogue planets that seem to have broken all the rules about being born from a central, controlling sun may force a rethink about how planets form, astronomers said on Thursday... "The formation of young, free-floating, planetary-mass objects like these is difficult to explain by our current models of how planets form," Zapatero-Osorio said... They are not linked to one another in an orbit, but do move together as a cluster, she said... Many stars in our own galaxy, the Milky Way, may have formed in a similar manner to the Orion stars, she said. So there could be similar, hard-to-see planets floating around free near the Solar System.

4 posted on 02/02/2006 9:47:30 AM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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Building Planets in Record Time
by Pamela L. Gay
12/02/2002
While the problem of hot Jupiters has yet to be resolved, Quinn and his colleagues may have sorted out the discrepancy between disk lifetimes and the timescale of planet formation. Using complex computer models, this team showed that protoplanetary disks begin to fragment after just a few rotations -- after just about 350 years -- and these fragments build up into planets. If two clumps of material have similar orbits they eventually collide and form a larger planet.

5 posted on 02/02/2006 9:49:02 AM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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emphasis added:
A Family of Giants
American Astronomical Society
and San Francisco State University
Apr. 15, 1999
Upsilon Andromedae is a bright star that is visible to the naked eye from the Northern Hemisphere, starting roughly in June. It is located about 44 light-years from Earth, and is roughly 3 billion years old, about two-thirds the age of the Sun.

The innermost (and previously known) of the three planets contains at least three-quarters of the mass of Jupiter and orbits only 0.06 AU (8.9 million km) from the star... It traverses a circular orbit every 4.6 days. The middle planet contains at least twice the mass of Jupiter and takes 242 days to orbit the star once. It resides approximately 0.83 AU from the star, similar to the orbital distance of Venus. The outermost planet has a mass of at least four Jupiters, and completes one orbit every 3.5 to 4 years, placing it 2.5 AU from the star. The two outer planets are both new discoveries and have elliptical orbits, a characteristic of the nine other extrasolar planets in distant orbits around their stars.

No current theory predicted that so many giant worlds would form around a star... A computer simulation by Greg Laughlin of U.C. Berkeley suggest that these three giant planets could co-exist in stable orbits. One big question left to answer is how such a solar system arose... [T]hese observations cannot rule-out Earth-sized planets, as their signature would be too weak to detect with current instrumentation.

6 posted on 02/02/2006 9:50:24 AM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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To: SunkenCiv

The ONLY thing that puzzles me about this behavior is how scientists can think there is anything abnormal about this. Theings are constantly in flux, but on galactic scales.

Out sun viewed in time-lapse photography probably sputters bright and dim all the time- we just dont see it because it takes thousands of years.

By the same token I bet our planets either move in and crash into the sun OR move away and fling out into space, ... eventlually.


7 posted on 02/02/2006 9:50:31 AM PST by Mr. K (Some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help...)
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To: SunkenCiv

The ONLY thing that puzzles me about this behavior is how scientists can think there is anything abnormal about this. Things are constantly in flux, but on galactic time scales.

OuR sun viewed in time-lapse photography probably sputters bright and dim all the time- we just dont see it because it takes thousands of years.

By the same token I bet our planets either move in and crash into the sun OR move away and fling out into space, ... eventlually.


8 posted on 02/02/2006 9:51:17 AM PST by Mr. K (Some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help...)
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To: Mr. K

"In this case, what we see is what was left behind after the planetary accretion disk dissipated and the tidal torques disappeared."

I think that explains it.


9 posted on 02/02/2006 9:53:15 AM PST by mlc9852
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Two More Extrasolar Planets And Evidence Of A Mature Planetary System
Ron Cowen
Science News
One of the newly found extrasolar planets is the first whose average distance from its parent star is nearly the same as Earth's distance from the sun. The planet, however, is far heavier than Earth, at least 1.36 times as massive as Jupiter, and has a much more elongated orbit. The planet ventures closer to its host star than Venus' average distance from the sun and farther away than Mars' average distance. It orbits the star HD210277, which is 68 light-years away from Earth.

The other new planet orbits its parent star, HD187123, more closely than any other planet found so far. Its circular orbit lies at a distance less than one-ninth the average separation between the sun and Mercury, the solar system's innermost planet. HD187123 lies 156 light-years away from Earth. Both planets were detected by a team that includes R. Paul Butler of the Anglo-Australian Observatory in Epping, Australia, and Geoffrey W. Marcy of San Francisco State University and the University of California, Berkeley. The team will report the discovery of the closely orbiting planet in an upcoming "Publications of The Astronomical Society of the Pacific".

10 posted on 02/02/2006 9:53:26 AM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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To: Mr. K

Wholeheartedly agree -- knowledge is never complete.


11 posted on 02/02/2006 9:54:29 AM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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emphasis added:
Swiss Team Discovers Third Extrasolar Planet
by Jeff Kanipe
Sep 09 1999
A Swiss team of astronomers has discovered its third extrasolar planet in less than a year. Using the 1.2-meter Euler Swiss telescope at the La Silla Observatory in La Serena, Chile, they have found a Jupiter-size planet orbiting in a near circle around the 8-th magnitude star HD 130322 in the constellation Virgo.

Lying at a distance of only 7.4 million miles from its parent star (Mercury orbits the Sun at a mean distance of 36 million miles) the planet completes an orbit in only 10.7 days.

Astronomers classify the new planet as a "hot Jupiter" type with a surface temperature of about 1,000 kelvins (1340 degrees fahrenheit).

The star, which lies below naked-eye limit, is similar to the Sun in composition but is only about half as bright. It lies some 100 light-years away and, aside from its planetary companion, is otherwise unremarkable.

12 posted on 02/02/2006 9:58:21 AM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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emphasis added:
Astronomers glimpse atmosphere of extra-solar planet
by Jeff Hecht
27 November 01
try the web archive
Brown has been studying one planet with an orbit that takes it directly between us and its star, HD 209458. The giant planet is a hot Jupiter or "roaster", only around 7.5 million kilometres from its sun. It passes in front of the star every 3.5 days, and when it does it blocks around 1.6 per cent of the star's total light, meaning its diameter must be about 30 per cent larger than Jupiter's.

13 posted on 02/02/2006 10:01:25 AM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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To: Mr. K

The theory (which actually makes sense) is that when the sun becomes a red giant, it will either vaporize Mercury and Venus (maybe Earth and Mars) and Earth and Mars will be scorched, but actually move somewhat away from the sun as it will have less mass at that time to hold onto the planets with.

That doesn't take into account the possibility of another star or alien body entering our solar system and throwing things off a bit...


14 posted on 02/02/2006 10:03:38 AM PST by RockinRight (Attention RNC...we're the party of Reagan, not FDR...)
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Astronomers Announce the Most Earth-Like Planet Yet Found Outside the Solar System
NSF Press Release 05-097
June 13, 2005
The newly discovered "super-Earth" orbits the star Gliese 876, located just 15 light years away in the direction of the constellation Aquarius. This star also possesses two larger, Jupiter-size planets. The new planet whips around the star in a mere two days, and is so close to the star's surface that its dayside temperature probably tops 400 to 750 degrees Fahrenheit (200 to 400 degrees Celsius)--oven-like temperatures far too hot for life as we know it... The team measures a minimum mass for the planet of 5.9 Earth masses, orbiting Gliese 876 with a period of 1.94 days at a distance of 0.021 astronomical units (AU), or 2 million miles... Gliese 876 is a small, red star known as an M dwarf--the most common type of star in the galaxy. It is located in the constellation Aquarius, and, at about one-third the mass of the sun, is the smallest star around which planets have been discovered. Butler and Marcy detected the first planet there in 1998; it was a gas giant about twice the mass of Jupiter. Then, in 2001, they reported a second planet, another gas giant about half the mass of Jupiter. The two are in resonant orbits, the outer planet taking 60 days to orbit the star, twice the period of the inner giant planet... Lissauer also is excited by another feat reported in the paper submitted to the journal. For the first time, he, Rivera and Laughlin have determined the line-of-sight inclination of the orbit of the stellar system solely from the observed Doppler wobble of the star. Using dynamical models of how the two Jupiter-size planets interact, they were able to calculate the masses of the two giant planets from the observed shapes and precession rates of their oval orbits. Precession is the slow turning of the long axis of a planet's elliptical orbit. They showed that the orbital plane is tilted 40 degrees to our line of sight. This allowed the team to estimate the most likely mass of the third planet as seven and a half Earth masses.

15 posted on 02/02/2006 10:05:28 AM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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To: RockinRight
The theory (which actually makes sense) is that when the sun becomes a red giant, it will either vaporize Mercury and Venus (maybe Earth and Mars) and Earth and Mars will be scorched, but actually move somewhat away from the sun as it will have less mass at that time to hold onto the planets with.
Quibble -- the solar mass won't suddenly be reduced by expansion; also the expansion (if such occurs) will place part of the solar mass closer to the Earth, and as you know, distance is more important than mass. :')

Meanwhile, there's a transfer of momentum from a rotating parent body (in this case, the Sun) to each satellite in prograde orbit (Earth, among many others), which slowly but surely expands that orbit. A body in retrograde orbit migrates slowly but surely inward.
16 posted on 02/02/2006 10:10:20 AM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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To: SunkenCiv

What we need is a functional technique whereby we can change the orbits of planets.


17 posted on 02/02/2006 10:12:09 AM PST by RightWhale (pas de lieu, Rhone que nous)
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didn't check the links, probably some are goners:
Did Jupiter Bully Other Planets in Sibling Rivalry?
by Robert Roy Britt
8 December 1999
One possible explanation, discussed in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature, is that Uranus and Neptune formed much closer to the center of the action than their current positions might indicate. In this scheme, Jupiter and Saturn were bullies of a protoplanetary playground, shoving the other two future giants out of the way.
Jupiter gave birth to Uranus and Neptune
by Dr David Whitehouse
8 December 1999
Not too long ago, scientists regarded the orbits that the planets circle our Sun as being the ones they were born in. Now they are realising that this is not the case. Uranus and Neptune may have migrated outwards and Jupiter may have come in from the outer cold. Scientists have always been slightly puzzled by the positions of Uranus and Neptune because in their present locations it would have taken longer than the age of the Solar System for them to form. Scientists from Queen's University suggest that the four giant planets started out as rocky cores in the Jupiter-Saturn region, and that the cores of Uranus and Neptune were tossed out by Jupiter's and Saturn's gravity.
Jupiter's Composition Throws Planet-formation Theories into Disarray
by Robert Roy Britt
Nov 17 1999
Examining four-year-old data, researchers have found significantly elevated levels of argon, krypton and xenon in Jupiter's atmosphere that may force a rethinking of theories about how the planet, and possibly the entire solar system, formed. Prevailing theories of planetary formation hold that the sun gathered itself together in the center of a pancake-shaped disk of gas and dust, then the planets begin to take shape by cleaning up the leftovers. In Jupiter's current orbit, 5 astronomical units from the sun, temperatures are too warm for the planetesimals to have trapped the noble gases. Only in the Kuiper belt -- a frigid region of the solar system more than 40 AU from the sun -- could planetesimals have trapped argon, krypton and xenon.

While lead researcher Tobias Owen does not put much stock in the idea that Jupiter might have migrated inward to its present position, other scientists on the team say the idea merits consideration. Owen expects the probes will find similarly high levels of noble gases in Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. Hints of these gases have even been found in the thick atmosphere of Venus, another planet now begging more study.
Newfound Moons Tell Secrets of Solar System
by Henry Fountain
August 12, 2003
The fact that most of the satellites' orbits are retrograde and eccentric speaks volumes about their origins: They had to have come from elsewhere, and been captured by the planets at some point. If they formed at the same time as the planets, from the spinning nebular disk, their orbits would be nearly circular and in the same direction as the planets' rotation, like the "regular" moons... In the case of the irregular satellites, they could not have shifted from an orbit around the Sun to an orbit around one of the giant planets without slowing down -- through friction in an atmosphere, perhaps; the influence of gravity; or a collision with another object... But there are two other possibilities for capture, Dr. Nesvorny said. One is that rapid growth of the core led to a corresponding increase in gravity, enough to pull down a nearby object. The other is that captured objects were a result of a collision between two planetesimals, the force of the collision being enough to dissipate the energy of at least one of them. Either of these two theories may be a more likely explanation for the satellites of Uranus and Neptune, which formed differently from Jupiter and Saturn, without the large amounts of gas.

18 posted on 02/02/2006 10:14:29 AM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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To: RightWhale

For terraforming? To create a "string of pearls"?


19 posted on 02/02/2006 10:15:09 AM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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To: SunkenCiv

That's right. Mercury and Venus are going to waste.


20 posted on 02/02/2006 10:16:22 AM PST by RightWhale (pas de lieu, Rhone que nous)
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To: RightWhale

Adding Mercury to Mars would be helpful. Cooling Venus could be started now, but would take thousands of years (at least).


21 posted on 02/02/2006 10:18:16 AM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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To: SunkenCiv
but would take thousands of years

Oh, was going to suggest we get going on this tomorrow, but if it will take that long we better start this afternoon.

22 posted on 02/02/2006 10:21:43 AM PST by RightWhale (pas de lieu, Rhone que nous)
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To: RightWhale

I've got it. We'll meditate, and send cooling thoughts toward the planet. ;')


23 posted on 02/02/2006 10:28:21 AM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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To: SunkenCiv

When I see planet Venus, I see with real estate broker's eyes.


24 posted on 02/02/2006 10:30:10 AM PST by RightWhale (pas de lieu, Rhone que nous)
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re: 55 Cancri

Astronomy Picture of the Day 09-01-04
NASA | 09-01-04 | Robert Nemiroff and Jerry Bonnell
Posted on 09/01/2004 9:34:45 AM PDT by petuniasevan
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1204850/posts


25 posted on 02/02/2006 10:31:25 AM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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related:

Massive Object Calls Planet Discoveries into Question
Space dot com (via Yahoo) | Thu, Jan 20, 2005 | Robert Roy Britt
Posted on 01/21/2005 9:19:56 AM PST by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1325494/posts


26 posted on 02/02/2006 10:32:24 AM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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Scientific maverick's theory on Earth's core up for a test
SF Chronicle | Monday, November 29, 2004 | Keay Davidson
Posted on 12/05/2004 11:17:28 AM PST by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1294934/posts

The July 2002 issue of Discover had this article:

The Strange Case of the Iron Sun
by Solana Pyne

In the late 1960s, chemist Oliver Manuel made a small but staggering discovery about meteorites. He noticed that the abundances of certain elements in meteorites were distinctly different from those in the Earth and much of the solar system. This observation spurred research showing that our solar system probably formed from material generated in many different stars. For Manuel, it also spawned a radical theory about the origins of our solar system, which he has doggedly pursued for forty years. Nearly all astronomers agree that the Sun and the rest of the planets formed from an amorphous cloud of gas and dust 4.6 billion years ago. But Manuel argues, based on his compositional data, that the solar system was created by a dramatic stellar explosion--a supernova--and that the iron-encased remnant of the progenitor star still sits at the center of the Sun.

11 posted on 12/05/2004 6:04:50 PM PST by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1294934/posts?page=11#11


27 posted on 02/02/2006 10:35:28 AM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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To: RightWhale

:') Those property data sheets in the info boxes on the for sale signs would burn right up. ;')


28 posted on 02/02/2006 10:36:46 AM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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To: RightWhale

Someone once suggested on a space blog that we move Venus to the opposite side of Earth's orbit so that it is exactly Earth's distance, but opposite the sun, then make Mars a moon of Venus, and terraform both.

Wild idea, but would make for a cool sci-fi movie.


29 posted on 02/02/2006 10:37:57 AM PST by RockinRight (Attention RNC...we're the party of Reagan, not FDR...)
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To: RockinRight

It would take a lot of planning so as to not disturb earth's orbit during the move. The most stable station points would be 60 degrees before or after earth's position.


30 posted on 02/02/2006 10:40:27 AM PST by RightWhale (pas de lieu, Rhone que nous)
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To: RightWhale

Not to mention one buttkicker of a rocket engine.


31 posted on 02/02/2006 10:58:43 AM PST by nuke rocketeer
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To: 75thOVI; AndrewC; Avoiding_Sulla; BenLurkin; Berosus; CGVet58; chilepepper; ckilmer; Eastbound; ...
Sun Might Have Exchanged Hangers-On With Rival Star
by Dennis Overbye
NY Times
December 2, 2004
Either encounter would also leave alien planetoids in our solar system (and some of ours in the alien system) orbiting at a steep angle to the plane in which the planets go around. And so the next step is to search for such objects.

Sedna itself has only a moderately inclined orbit , the astronomers say. A more likely candidate for an extra-solar origin is another icy wanderer, known as 2000 CR105, about half the size of Sedna, discovered out beyond Neptune in 2000. Its orbit is inclined 20 degrees to the planets.

The detection of objects with inclinations of 40 degrees or more, the authors write in Nature, "would clinch the case for extrasolar objects in the solar system."

32 posted on 02/02/2006 10:11:32 PM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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To: KevinDavis

maybe a space list ping? Not like me to neglect that, I'm always buggin' you with pings.

Anyway, a related topic you've posted:

The most earthlike planet yet
Astronomy | 02/02/06 | Francis Reddy
Posted on 02/02/2006 5:27:18 PM PST by KevinDavis
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1570611/posts

http://www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx?c=a&id=3922


33 posted on 02/02/2006 10:28:43 PM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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Extrasolar planet discoveries, various links:

list of all or most:
http://obswww.unige.ch/~naef/who_discovered_that_planet.html

more about Barnard's star here:
http://www.public.asu.edu/~sciref/exoplnt.htm

Gliese 876 discoverers, among other things:
http://exoplanets.org/

from 2002:
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/exoplanet_scoreboard_020628.html


34 posted on 02/02/2006 11:06:34 PM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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extrasolar planet discoveries:
Google

35 posted on 02/02/2006 11:13:51 PM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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speaking of Mercury...

Was Mercury a ‘hit-and-run’ planet?
MSNBC Space News | Jan. 11, 2006 | By Robert Roy Britt
Posted on 01/25/2006 10:26:47 PM PST by Swordmaker
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1565199/posts


36 posted on 02/05/2006 7:08:32 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Islam is medieval fascism, and the Koran is a medieval Mein Kampf.)
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The Growing Habitable Zone: Locations for Life Abound
Space.com | 07 February 2006 | Ker Than
Posted on 02/07/2006 1:59:24 PM PST by tricky_k_1972
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1573798/posts


37 posted on 02/07/2006 10:18:00 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Islam is medieval fascism, and the Koran is a medieval Mein Kampf.)
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Astronomers poised to apply novel way to look for comets beyond Neptune
EurekAlert | 7-Jan-2003 | Anne Stark
Posted on 11/07/2005 10:41:04 PM PST by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1517866/posts


38 posted on 02/07/2006 10:19:35 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Islam is medieval fascism, and the Koran is a medieval Mein Kampf.)
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NASA telescope spots two mega solar systems
ap on San Diego Union Tribune | 2/8/06 | AP
Posted on 02/08/2006 3:53:01 PM PST by NormsRevenge
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1574695/posts

Spitzer Sees the Aftermath of a Planetary Collision
Universe Today | Jan. 10, 2005 | Dolores Beasley and Gay Yee Hill
Posted on 01/13/2005 8:50:18 PM PST by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1320521/posts


39 posted on 02/08/2006 10:27:38 PM PST by SunkenCiv ([singing] Kaboom, kaboom, ya da da da da da, ya da da da da da...)
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Catastrophism

40 posted on 04/01/2006 8:21:54 AM PST by SunkenCiv (Yes indeed, Civ updated his profile and links pages again, on Monday, March 6, 2006.)
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