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Romans In Brazil During The Second Third Century?
Mysterious Earth ^

Posted on 12/10/2003 5:37:14 PM PST by blam

Romans in Brazil During the Second or Third Century?

Ex-marine and underwater explorer/archaeologist/treasure-hunter Robert Marx states rather flatly:

Amongst my most notable discover[ies] was that of a 2nd century BC Roman shipwreck in the Bay of Guanabara, near Rio de Janeiro. This is a discovery that has received little to no examination, much less validation, from the realm of mainstream archaeology, no doubt in part because Marx is not a Ph.D. archaeologist. Scouring the web for more information about this finding, I did find a reference to the discovery in an article from Dr. Elizabeth Lyding Will, an expert on Roman amphoras (clay vessels used to store and ship goods during the Roman era). Dr. Will apparently has a piece of an amphora recovered from Marx's Brazil discovery. Of it, she says:

The highly publicized amphoras Robert Marx found in the ship are in fact similar in shape to jars produced in kilns at Kouass, on the west coast of Morocco. The Rio jars look to be late versions of those jars, perhaps datable to the third century A.D. I have a large piece of one of the Rio jars, but no labs I have consulted have any clay similar in composition. So the edges of the earth for Rome, beyond India and Scotland and eastern Europe, remain shrouded in mystery. Information about this find is practically non existent. Gary Fretz's synopsis of the "whole story" suggests that the find has been suppressed by the Brazilian government:

At the time the amphorae were confirmed to be "Roman", the large Italian faction in Brazil were extremely excited about this news. The Italian ambassador to Brazil notified the Brazilian government that, since the Romans were the first to "discover" Brazil, then all Italian immigrants should be granted immediate citizenship. There are a large number of Italian immigrants in Brazil and the government has created a tedious and costly citizenship application procedure for Italians that does not apply to Portuguese immigrants. The Brazilian government would not give in and the Italians in Brazil staged demonstrations. In response, the Brazilian government ordered all civilians off the recovery project and censored further news about the wreck hoping to diffuse the civil unrest. Finally, I've also seen mention of the following written works, which I've yet to dig up: Marx R.F., 1984 , Romans in Rio? [see Santarelli A. Mondo Sommerso 270 1983:252-3. Oceans, 17.4: 18-21.] The Romans in Rio book (?) is not among the works of Robert Marx as listed at Amazon.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: ancientnavigation; archaeology; brazil; century; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; history; italy; robertmarx; romanempire; romans; second; third
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Please go to the site of this article to see/use the links, I don't know how to transfer them with this article.
1 posted on 12/10/2003 5:37:15 PM PST by blam
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To: farmfriend
MORE...

"The First Europeans to Reach the New World"

By Gary Fretz

Q. With all of the new technology available today, we should be able to know precisely when the first European ships reached the New World. What is the latest news? It was a group of Vikings who made landfall around 900 A.D., right?

A. Wrong! It is now confirmed that a Roman ship reached Brazil around the year 19 B.C.! Here is the whole story …

Two thousand years ago, the most valuable commodity “known to man” was salt. This is because most fresh meats and fish were preserved by packing in salt. In fact, salt was so valuable, it was used in place of coinage. This is where the word “salary” emerged (as well as the expression “he’s not worth his salt”). The Romans had a large salt production facility on Ilha do Sal (Salt Island) in the Cape Verde Islands, which are 350 miles off the coast of West Africa. This location is directly in the path of the hot, dry winds of the Sahara Desert, which can easily blow 60 knots from the east.
It is believed that this Roman merchant vessel was heading for Salt Island to pick up a load of salt and to provision the local army garrison when a fierce Sahara storm started. Roman ships were clumsy by modem standards and would have no choice but to lower their sails and to run with the winds to avoid capsizing. The Sahara winds can blow for many days and the Salt Ship was carried to Guanabara Bay (near Rio de Janeiro) in Brazil.
In the middle of the - Bay is a large submerged rock lying 3’ below the surface called Xareu Rock (named after a local fish that congregates here). The ship appears to have been travelling at a high rate of speed when she struck the rock. She broke into two pieces and settled in 75’ of water near the base of the rock.

In the late 1970’s, a local fisherman using nets around Xareu Rock kept “catching” some large (3’ tall), heavy earthen jars which tore his nets. He mistakenly thought these were “macumba”jars, which are used in local voodoo ceremonies and then thrown into the sea. So, as the jars were hauled up, he smashed them with a hammer and threw the small pieces back into the water in an attempt to prevent tearing his nets in the future.
If he had only known what treasures he was destroying! In recent years, a scuba diver was spear fishing around Xareu Rock and found eight similar jars that he took home.
He sold six jars to tourists before the Brazilian police arrested him with the two remaining jars for illegally selling ancient artifacts. Archaeologists immediately identified these as Roman amphorae of the 1st century B.C These containers were originally used to carry water, grain, salted fish, meat, olives, olive oil and other foods necessary to feed the ship’s crew and to provision Roman outposts. One of the world’s foremost authorities on Roman shipwrecks, Robert Marx, found more artifacts and confirmed this as an authentic Roman shipwreck.
The world’s foremost authority on Roman amphorae analyzed the clay in the jars and confirmed that these were manufactured at Kouass which was a Roman seaport, 2000 years ago, on the coast of modem-day Morocco. The Institute of Archaeology of the University of London performed thermo luminescence testing (which is a more accurate dating process than Carbon 14 dating) and the date of the manufacture was determined to be around 19 B.C. Many more amphorae and some marble objects were recovered, as well as a Roman bronze fibula (a clasp device used to fasten a coat or shirt).

So, why haven't we heard more about this fantastic find? One would think this news would make headlines around the world… The short answer is “politics”. At the time the amphorae were confirmed to be "Roman", the large Italian faction in Brazil were extremely excited about this news.

The Italian ambassador to Brazil notified the Brazilian government that, since the Romans were the first to "discover" Brazil, then all Italian immigrants should be granted immediate citizenship. There are a large number of Italian immigrants in Brazil and the government has created a tedious and costly citizenship application procedure for Italians that does not apply to Portuguese immigrants. The Brazilian government would not give in and the Italians in Brazil staged demonstrations. In response, the Brazilian government ordered all civilians off the recovery project and censored further news about the wreck hoping to diffuse the civil unrest. The Brazilian Navy continues to excavate the wreck in secret.
We only know about it because of what Robert Marx learned before he was dismissed and what the University of London has leaked. This shipwreck may help explain some other intriguing Brazilian finds: - Several hundred ancient Roman silver and bronze coins were unearthed near Recife, Brazil. Did these once belong to the castaways of the Salt Ship?

- A tribe of white, mostly blonde haired, blue-eyed "Indians" has been found in a remote region of the Amazon jungle. Could these be the descendants of the shipwrecked sailors of the Xareu wreck? DNA analysis of these “Indians” will surely bring some interesting facts to light!

2 posted on 12/10/2003 5:44:48 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Interesting article. Thanks for posting it.
3 posted on 12/10/2003 5:55:55 PM PST by NoCurrentFreeperByThatName
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To: blam
you find some of the best stuff.....do you have a link about that white Amazon tribe?
4 posted on 12/10/2003 5:56:24 PM PST by Ahban
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To: blam
Ramones in Brazile?

Gabba Gabba Hey!
5 posted on 12/10/2003 5:56:56 PM PST by WhiteGuy (Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press...)
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To: Ahban
"do you have a link about that white Amazon tribe?"

You're thinking of the Chachapoyas...There's an article in the FR archives on this subject but, I couldn't find it. I may be misspelling Chachapoyas.(?)

6 posted on 12/10/2003 6:03:48 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Reminds me of the fiction book "Treasure" by Clive Cussler. A good book.
7 posted on 12/10/2003 6:09:19 PM PST by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: blam
There was a brand of bread here in NY called "Roman Meal."
Supposed to be healthful stuff.

I liked one ad they had which they put up on a billboard next to an expressway that said:
"If the Romans had eaten Roman Meal,
they'd be chariots on this expressway today."
8 posted on 12/10/2003 6:10:16 PM PST by John Beresford Tipton
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To: John Beresford Tipton
"they'd be chariots on this expressway today."

It was Roman chariots that determined the width of that very expressway.

9 posted on 12/10/2003 6:12:51 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Correct. IE: roads in the UK.
10 posted on 12/10/2003 6:18:03 PM PST by Eric in the Ozarks
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To: blam
Tiny Roman Bust Shows Pre-Columbian Contact With Mexico (with picture)

'Did Roman explorers discover America 1,300 years ahead of Christopher Columbus' was the headline on page 25 of the DAILY MAIL for Thursday, 10 February 2000. On the same day THE EXPRESS ran a story on page 28 under the banner `Oldest Latin in America: Bust may prove Romans got there first'.

Both stories sought to highlight claims being made in the new issue of the magazine NEW SCIENTIST concerning the recent realisation that a small ceramic head found in 1933 at a site in the Toluca Valley, 72 kilometres west of Mexico City, is in fact Roman in origin.(1) A dating process known as thermoluminescence, which determines the age of ceramics, has found that the tiny bust is approximately 1800 years old. How it might have reached Mexico is the big mystery. The implication, however, is that the head, which shows a full-bearded individual in typical Latin style, was introduced to the New World prior to the age of Columbus.

11 posted on 12/10/2003 6:30:47 PM PST by Djarum
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To: WhiteGuy
The RAMS had a Roman quarterback in the '70s...
12 posted on 12/10/2003 6:32:52 PM PST by Stars N Stripes (My baloney has a first name, it's h o m e r, my baloney has a second name it's h o m e r .......)
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To: Rodney King
Also "Serpent" by the same author.
13 posted on 12/10/2003 6:33:40 PM PST by freeangel (freeangel)
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To: farmfriend
One for the Gods, Graves, and Glyphs list!
14 posted on 12/10/2003 6:41:49 PM PST by BradyLS (DO NOT FEED THE BEARS!)
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To: blam
"The First Europeans to Reach the New World"

This all reminds me of the Italian media crowing (after Buzz Aldrin said "Mama Mia!" up there)"Italian Spoken On Moon!"

15 posted on 12/10/2003 6:46:10 PM PST by ErnBatavia (Taglineus Interruptus)
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To: blam
Great Post. Freepers are the best.
16 posted on 12/10/2003 6:49:48 PM PST by dix
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To: Ahban
"do you have a link about that white Amazon tribe?"

Go to the below linked thread and go to post #39,40,41,42 for links and comments about the Chachapoyas.

Explorers Unearth Lost Inca Stronghold In Peru

17 posted on 12/10/2003 6:55:41 PM PST by blam
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To: Stars N Stripes
"The RAMS had a Roman quarterback in the '70s..."

Roman Gabriel

18 posted on 12/10/2003 6:58:46 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
It was Roman chariots that determined the width of that very expressway.

Wasn't that supposed to be "determined the width of a certain gauge of train track?"
19 posted on 12/10/2003 6:59:09 PM PST by aruanan
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To: aruanan
"Wasn't that supposed to be "determined the width of a certain gauge of train track?"

That too...and also something about the size of the space shuttle.

20 posted on 12/10/2003 7:02:16 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
I thought it was railroads...
21 posted on 12/10/2003 7:02:47 PM PST by ValerieUSA
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To: blam
I thought the LDS had already claimed those blonde 'Indians'.
22 posted on 12/10/2003 7:03:55 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote life support for others.)
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To: blam
Hmmmmmmm.
Sounds like a new entry for the next edition of Forbidden Archeology.
23 posted on 12/10/2003 7:04:02 PM PST by Publius6961 (40% of Californians are as dumb as a sack of rocks.)
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To: blam
Thos frisky Romans must have come for Carnivale!
24 posted on 12/10/2003 7:06:07 PM PST by breakem
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To: MHGinTN
"I thought the LDS had already claimed those blonde 'Indians'."

Don't know. I believe these folks were exiled miners that were employed by King Solomon.

25 posted on 12/10/2003 7:07:09 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
It wouldn't surprise me to find a Roman shipwreck in the Americas because it isn't necessarily evidence of trade. It could be a single lost ship or even a ship that was carried, empty, across the ocean only to eventually sink. I've read that one of the reasons why Columbus thought he could sail across the Atlantic directly to China was that bodies of Asian-looking "Eskimos"/Innuit would wash up on the shores of Ireland and other parts of Europe from accidents far to the North and West. Things that float get shuffled around.

More interesting would be evidence that they were moored or finding more than one or two together.

26 posted on 12/10/2003 7:15:30 PM PST by Question_Assumptions
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To: Ahban
I read that some time after the destruction of Carthage that it was reported that Plutarch spoke that he had read (from 'writings' in the ruins) that the Carthagenians(sp) had traded with nations across the Atlantic. Then we have the 'cocaine mummies' and of course, Solon's tales of Atlantis, as related to him by the Egyptian high priests, etc. I believe there was ancient contact between Asia, Europe, the Americas and Africa. ...and that this contact was broken numerous times (and memory of this contact was forgotten) due to worldwide catastrophies, famine and/or plagues. This is/could be why we have 'exiled' populations of humans of different races all over the globe.
27 posted on 12/10/2003 7:17:28 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
interesting
28 posted on 12/10/2003 7:20:24 PM PST by Centurion2000 (Resolve to perform what you ought, perform without fail what you resolve.)
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To: Djarum
"Tiny Roman Bust Shows Pre-Columbian Contact With Mexico (with picture) "

Thanks, I've read references to this statue a number of times.

29 posted on 12/10/2003 7:24:37 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
There is such a group in northern Japan.
30 posted on 12/10/2003 7:28:31 PM PST by Eric in the Ozarks
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To: Djarum

This is a statue found in an Olmec (1200BC) site being excavated by archaeologists in Mexico

31 posted on 12/10/2003 7:31:54 PM PST by blam
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To: Eric in the Ozarks
"There is such a group in northern Japan."

Yup, those are the Ainu (Kennewick Mans relatives) and the Jomon were before them. I saw a program the other night on the Samurai and the most honored Samurai in history was over six feet tall, he is also the one who began the practice of Harakiri.

There is a thought out there that the original Samurai were the Ainu, taller, bigger, hairy and light skinned. Some even say the Japanese practice of 'white face' is an emulation of these ancient 'royal' Samurai.

32 posted on 12/10/2003 7:37:45 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Blam, as I recall, Fate magazine ran a story about Robert Marx diving on this Roman wreck in an edition back around about 1982.

I've read three of Marx' books. "Shipwrecks in the Americas" and "The Capture of the Treasure Fleet" were excellent I thought. The one he wrote in the 60s about the Spanish Armada was a real stinker however :}

He must be getting kind of long in the tooth now--ahemmm. I think he was one of the team that worked the Port Royal sunken seaport site years in the 60s.

33 posted on 12/10/2003 7:38:06 PM PST by Rockpile
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To: blam
Bump for easy finding later. Fascinating.
34 posted on 12/10/2003 7:51:21 PM PST by Ruth A.
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To: blam; *Gods, Graves, Glyphs; abner; Alas Babylon!; Andyman; annyokie; bd476; BiffWondercat; ...
Gods, Graves, Glyphs
List for articles regarding early civilizations , life of all forms, - dinosaurs - etc.

Let me know if you wish to be added or removed from this ping list.

35 posted on 12/10/2003 7:56:22 PM PST by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: BradyLS
Thanks for the heads up.
36 posted on 12/10/2003 7:59:35 PM PST by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: ValerieUSA; blam; aruanan; farmfriend
Here's the snopes link for that "urban legend" about the Space Shuttle, railroad gauges and chariot wheels. Hope it's helpful.

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.htm

Blam and farmfriend, thanks for the GGG posts and bumps.
37 posted on 12/10/2003 8:10:28 PM PST by Bilbo Baggins
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To: blam
bttfl
38 posted on 12/10/2003 8:45:14 PM PST by Cacique
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To: farmfriend; blam
Just short note to thank both of you for including me on the ping list. I take much enjoyment reading this sort of stuff. Kudos to you blam...for finding such stimulating articles....and special thanks to you farmfriend for maintaining the list.

I was in a Barnes and Noble bookstore yesterday perusing the science section of their magazine rack. .....I recognized one of the cover pieces as something you had posted on. I thought out loud..."BLAM!!!"

I was immediately surrounded by Mall Security...asking me what I thought I was doing.

I was so in awe...all I could do was point at the rack...(which by that time unfortunately was blocked by a well endowed redhead)
....and shouted..with a slight drool from the lower right side of my lip..."BLAM!!!...BLAM!!!...BLAM!!!"

This was very soon relagated to an abbreviated..... "BLA...BLA...BLA"...due to the multiple stranglehold that three of the more enthusiastic "I really could have passed the policeman's test, but I found Mall Security a more rewarding career ,two way radio packing and, well vested in giving directions to the restroom", personell had on my throat.

After a quick fifteen minute discussion...which took about an hour an a half....they all agreed that I was not a threat to the strucural integrity of the Mall...they went off in search of the redhead.

It was exiting the store that I noticed the Al Franken book prominently displayed in the front on the "Best Seller" Rack..that's when my problems really started..........................................................

39 posted on 12/10/2003 8:50:13 PM PST by Focault's Pendulum (I just got Cable!!!! Unfortunately there's some time warp going on with the South Pacific musical!!)
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To: blam
And they, after all, were just pursuing the Carthaginians in order to stamp them out.
40 posted on 12/10/2003 8:55:22 PM PST by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them, or they like us?)
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To: AmericanVictory
"And they, after all, were just pursuing the Carthaginians in order to stamp them out."

Hadn't considered that. They probably 'worked-on' King Solomon's mine workers too, huh?

41 posted on 12/10/2003 9:22:00 PM PST by blam
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To: Focault's Pendulum; farmfriend
"Just short note to thank both of you for including me on the ping list. I take much enjoyment reading this sort of stuff. Kudos to you blam...for finding such stimulating articles....and special thanks to you farmfriend for maintaining the list."

I'm glad that you appreciate it. I do it because I enjoy the resultant discussions and learning opportunity. My thanks to 'farmfriend' too.

I was at Barnes & Nobles resently and purchased a copy of Whittaker Chamber's book Witness as a Christmas present for my son. (This book is close to the top of my all-time-favorite books.)

42 posted on 12/10/2003 9:34:45 PM PST by blam
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To: Question_Assumptions
Back in 1977 a single handed sailor was trying that very trip. He ran into trouble and decided he may want to abandon his boat because he thought it was sinking. He got into his life raft and tied it to the boat but the line broke. His boat beat him to Central America by about two weeks. He finally made it in the raft.
43 posted on 12/10/2003 10:07:25 PM PST by U S Army EOD (When the EOD technician screws up, he is always the first to notice.)
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To: blam
Fascinating article, thanks for posting!
44 posted on 12/10/2003 10:09:37 PM PST by Eva
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To: Bilbo Baggins
You are welcome.
45 posted on 12/10/2003 10:11:23 PM PST by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: Focault's Pendulum
Thanks for the moral support and the funny story.
46 posted on 12/10/2003 10:11:59 PM PST by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: blam
There are those that theorize that the fabulous cities which have been discovered in the Amazonian interior, which are of an architecture clearly beyond the capailities of the present members of the "white tribe" are of that civilization which was the creator of Solomon's mines. As for the Carthaginians and other Phoenician civilizations on the coasts beyond the Straits, we shall never know because the Romans so thoroughly destroyed all of the civilization that they could, by their voyaging seems to have been more extensive in the Atlantic than that of Rome.
47 posted on 12/10/2003 10:13:17 PM PST by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them, or they like us?)
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To: Bilbo Baggins; blam
I don't believe things are as tidily dealt with as Snopes would like to believe. Somewhere I have correspondence with an author who was working on this very question with respect to a particular gauge of train track in Europe. I'll see if I can dig it up. It was on another computer in another lab, but I've saved all my data, so it's probably there somewhere. I know I've seen it once or twice since then while looking for other stuff.
48 posted on 12/11/2003 7:13:26 AM PST by aruanan
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To: Prof Engineer
ping
49 posted on 12/11/2003 7:32:05 AM PST by msdrby (US Veterans: All give some, but some give all.)
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To: blam
I believe there was ancient contact between Asia, Europe, the Americas and Africa. ...and that this contact was broken numerous times (and memory of this contact was forgotten) due to worldwide catastrophies, famine and/or plagues.

If regular trade had been established, there would have been motivation to keep it quiet in order to maintain the monopoly! Thus losing a very few captains or ships would have broken the contact and subsequently all memory thereof.

50 posted on 12/11/2003 9:29:14 AM PST by night reader
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