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Supernova Storm Wiped Out Mammoths?
Discovery News ^ | 09/28/05 | Jennifer Viegas

Posted on 10/04/2005 11:47:27 PM PDT by planetesimal

A supernova blast 41,000 years ago started a deadly chain of events that led to the extinction of mammoths and other animals in North America, according to two scientists.

If their supernova theory gains acceptance, it could explain why dozens of species on the continent became extinct 13,000 years ago.

(Excerpt) Read more at dsc.discovery.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: archaeology; catastrophism; clovis; clovisimpact; evolution; extinction; godsgravesglyphs; history; impact; mammoth; supernova
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For those that missed the "World of Elephants" shindig a few weeks ago, which I'm guessing is pretty much everyone. :)
1 posted on 10/04/2005 11:47:28 PM PDT by planetesimal
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To: planetesimal

well, time to change those science books AGAIN as another theory falls on its face. apparently. maybe. for a while.


2 posted on 10/04/2005 11:50:13 PM PDT by GeronL (Leftism is the INSANE Cult of the Artificial)
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To: planetesimal
Except that 30000 to 13000 years ago is withing the memory of mankind (oral traditions, cave paintings), and nothing like this is evident. Being hunted to death seems more likely

Some scholars even believe mankind had memory of Neanderthals. "For in those days there were giants in the earth that bread with the son of man".
3 posted on 10/04/2005 11:56:23 PM PDT by konaice
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To: konaice

Neandertal DNA is not close enough to Homo sapiens DNA for this to happen.


4 posted on 10/04/2005 11:57:49 PM PDT by The Red Zone (Florida, the sun-shame state, and Illinois the chicken injun.)
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To: The Red Zone
Neandertal DNA is not close enough to Homo sapiens DNA for this to happen.

BS. they are closer than horses and asses.

Besides, nobody said the breeding was successful (yielded viable offspring).

5 posted on 10/04/2005 11:59:54 PM PDT by konaice
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To: planetesimal

How long before it's blamed on President Bush?


6 posted on 10/05/2005 12:02:13 AM PDT by Choose Ye This Day (I just stepped in a big pile of sassy.)
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To: konaice

It's hard to call it "breeding" when nothing is born.


7 posted on 10/05/2005 12:02:18 AM PDT by The Red Zone (Florida, the sun-shame state, and Illinois the chicken injun.)
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To: Choose Ye This Day

Bush doesn't care about mammoths.


8 posted on 10/05/2005 12:04:34 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Peace Begins in the Womb)
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To: The Red Zone
It's hard to call it "breeding" when nothing is born.

Go learn the difference between horses and asses and donkeys, and then perhaps we can have this discussion.

Remember, its not my theory, but its one possible explanation of that phrase.

9 posted on 10/05/2005 12:05:21 AM PDT by konaice
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To: konaice

I hate it when giants bread with me. Let them get their own bread. You know how big a loaf those guys can eat?


10 posted on 10/05/2005 12:06:46 AM PDT by DannyTN
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To: konaice
Fair point, but many species went extinct around that time, including:
In addition to the tusk evidence, the scientists said arrowheads from North America's prehistoric Clovis culture, which went extinct around 13,500-13,000 years ago, Icelandic marine sediment, as well as sediment from nine 13,000-year-old sites in North America, contain higher-than-normal amounts of radiation in the form of potassium-40 levels.
This is by no means settled science, but interesting nonetheless.
11 posted on 10/05/2005 12:07:32 AM PDT by planetesimal (All is flux)
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To: Jeff Chandler

LOL! Thanks, Kanye!


12 posted on 10/05/2005 12:08:02 AM PDT by Choose Ye This Day (I just stepped in a big pile of sassy.)
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To: planetesimal
"What is exciting about Dr. Firestone's theory is that it can be easily tested," Becker said,

I'm waiting. I'm still waiting. Still waiting. Still.....

13 posted on 10/05/2005 12:08:46 AM PDT by taxesareforever (Government is running amuck)
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To: The Red Zone

14 posted on 10/05/2005 12:10:09 AM PDT by DannyTN
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To: taxesareforever
I'm waiting. I'm still waiting. Still waiting. Still.....
Why not try a personal ad? Or take up a hobby.
15 posted on 10/05/2005 12:14:52 AM PDT by planetesimal (All is flux)
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To: planetesimal
THIS guy has a far more plausible explanation for ice ages and extinctions than any other theoretician I've yet found.
16 posted on 10/05/2005 12:26:55 AM PDT by Don W (Nevermind, I live in CUBA-NORTH! AKA Canuckistan)
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To: konaice

I seriously doubt the 'hunted to death' theory. What really piques my interest is the frozen mastadons found in Siberia that have fresh flowers in their teeth, and unprocessed vegetation in their gastric system. It's like they just up and died, and froze, in minutes.


17 posted on 10/05/2005 12:50:25 AM PDT by SoDak
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To: planetesimal
Image hosted by TinyPic.com
18 posted on 10/05/2005 12:54:08 AM PDT by Old Seadog (Birthdays start out being fun. But too many of them will kill you..)
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To: SoDak
What really piques my interest is the frozen mastadons found in Siberia that have fresh flowers in their teeth, and unprocessed vegetation in their gastric system. It's like they just up and died, and froze, in minutes.

Up here in Alaska, and I speculate also in Siberia, you can have a thin layer of melted earth in the spring, and flowers blooming in just a week or so of sunshine. But underneath you have permafrost.

However there are sink holes with water running underneath, and iced over lakes/rivers that look walk-able. Walk out, fall in, and freeze next to or under the permafrost.

19 posted on 10/05/2005 12:59:27 AM PDT by konaice
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To: konaice

But that's in spring. Wouldn't the coming warming, albeit a short warm season, allow predation and deterioration?


20 posted on 10/05/2005 1:02:26 AM PDT by SoDak
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To: planetesimal

Author doesn't know what she's talking about.....Michael Moore is still around.


21 posted on 10/05/2005 1:02:38 AM PDT by BulletBobCo
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To: Don W
Thanks for the link, but that site design is so mid-nineties it merits only a quick glance, and a quick and fruitless search for, e.g., the word 'methane' confirms the wisdom of moving on.

I can't think of a single person, let alone scientist, who denies that glaciation occurs in cycles governed by solar and planetary factors. I can think of somebody who aims to profit directly from a dubious collation of information. The guy flogging that book.

22 posted on 10/05/2005 1:04:05 AM PDT by planetesimal (All is flux)
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To: SoDak
But that's in spring. Wouldn't the coming warming, albeit a short warm season, allow predation and deterioration?

Not if the carcase sinks into the permafrost. Gets covered with muskeg (no oxygen) and gets frozen even in mid summer.

Siberia is generally fairly flat, and in such places holes tend to get iced over, (often year round) OR muskeg forms a layer over a small lake or hole. The muskeg might be 10 feet thick but its floating. Big animals call fall through (or little animals in the case of my little brother who had to be pulled out of a muskeg hole while picking blueberries one year), and sink to the bottom where the lake may never thaw.

Flowers do not necessarily mean spring. There are flowers up here that bloom late (since summer is so short).

23 posted on 10/05/2005 1:31:08 AM PDT by konaice
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To: konaice

Your position then seems plausible. Contrary to popular belief, SD has no permafrost, and so I'm not familiar with the peculiarity of the geography. However, I have not seen this position forwarded in what I've read of scientific work on these beasts.


24 posted on 10/05/2005 1:35:07 AM PDT by SoDak
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To: planetesimal

The 6,214 miles-per-second iron-rich grains would have riddled everything like bullets.


25 posted on 10/05/2005 1:35:09 AM PDT by Savage Beast (Sin in the name of God is the ultimate blasphemy.)
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To: SoDak
However, I have not seen this position forwarded in what I've read of scientific work on these beasts.

Well I can't think of any other way something as large as a mammoth can die X thousand years ago and be almost intact today. It has to fall into some place where it freezes and gets burried quickly because the north will not allow a food source to go unused for long.

By the way, another mammoth was just discovered in Siberia.

26 posted on 10/05/2005 1:43:18 AM PDT by konaice
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To: konaice

Very cool. I find the idea of perhaps cloning one very fascinating. I'm much more interested in the more recent mega fauna, such as the Mastadon or the giant sloths, than the dinosaurs.


27 posted on 10/05/2005 1:46:15 AM PDT by SoDak
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To: konaice

Where do you think lieberals come from? And ol' Red Zone?


28 posted on 10/05/2005 2:21:52 AM PDT by dhuffman@awod.com (The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.)
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To: planetesimal

Well, "the guy flogging his book" sold one to me, and I read and thoroughly enjoyed it, and learned a few things about the author's branch of plate tectonics theory studies. I lent it to my dad, but it seems to have gone missing.

For the price, I'll probably buy another, and not just because I was intrigued by the scenario presented, but because I LOVE reading.

He also goes into magnetism and galaxial mechanics (albeit merely glancing off same) in a most unique manner in the book.

I'm not saying he's dead right, nor is he dead wrong, but he presents a series of compelling arguments for his theory, and is worth reading. He does sometimes seem to be preaching at times, mind you, but what author doesn't? < BG >.


29 posted on 10/05/2005 2:26:32 AM PDT by Don W (Nevermind, I live in CUBA-NORTH!)
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To: DannyTN
You know how big a loaf those guys can eat?


30 posted on 10/05/2005 2:28:16 AM PDT by Leroy S. Mort
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To: Jeff Chandler
Bush doesn't care about mammoths.

Aw, hell. There goes another two hundred billion...

31 posted on 10/05/2005 2:29:49 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: The Red Zone

Call me crazy, but we share 95% of the DNA of most primates, yes? Ceretainly, our DNA is close to that of Neanderthals.


32 posted on 10/05/2005 2:37:03 AM PDT by SALChamps03
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To: planetesimal
If their supernova theory gains acceptance, it could explain why dozens of species on the continent became extinct 13,000 years ago.

Seems the much more likely explanation is the arrival of man at about the same time. The same thing happened to many large mammal species in Australia after mankind arrived on that continent.

33 posted on 10/05/2005 2:37:32 AM PDT by Godebert
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To: konaice
Here's a pretty well preserved one. This is really amazing stuff.

Dima, a frozen baby Mammoth In 1977, the first of two complete baby mammoths was found—a 6–12-month-old male named “Dima.” His flattened, emaciated, but well-preserved body was enclosed in a lens of ice, 6 feet below the surface of a gentle mountainous slope.1 “Portions of the ice were clear and others quite brownish yellow with mineral and organic particles.”2 Silt, clay, and small particles of gravel were found throughout his digestive and respiratory tracts (trachea, bronchi, and lungs). These details are important clues in understanding frozen mammoths. Because most mammoths were fat and well fed, Dima may have suffered before death from one of the many problems common to baby elephants. Within their first year of life, 5–36% of elephants die.

34 posted on 10/05/2005 2:41:05 AM PDT by Caipirabob (Democrats.. Socialists..Commies..Traitors...Who can tell the difference?)
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To: The Red Zone
Neandertal DNA is not close enough to Homo sapiens DNA for this to happen.

Reference? I doubt you have any of this Neardertal DNA, but there are many scientists who believe Neadertal DNA is widespread in modern day humans.

But an intact sample of pure Neandertal DNA? I think you are daydreaming or reading too much SF.

35 posted on 10/05/2005 3:11:29 AM PDT by John Valentine
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To: konaice
"For in those days there were giants in the earth that bread with the son of man".

Actually, what the Bible says is that the "sons of God" bred with the daughters of men and their offspring were "giants." Exactly what this means is highly debatable, but folk memory of Neanderthals is likely to be it.

36 posted on 10/05/2005 3:44:23 AM PDT by Restorer (Illegitimati non carborundum)
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To: planetesimal
Seems to me that if there were a Supernova blast within 250 LY of earth, even 40K years ago, there would be ample astronomical evidence of such..

Any Astronomers here?
Is there any evidence of a Supernova within say, 500 LY of earth within, say, the last 100K years?
Any evidence at all?

Concerning the presently existing astronomical evidence of supernova blasts that have been recorded, how old are they? ( regardless of distance )
How old is the presently seen evidence of those explosions?
Is it fairly easy to recognize the post-supernova evidence?

I don't recall hearing/reading of any nearby (relatively) evidence of large clouds of ionized particles, x-ray emmissions from massively accelerated solar mass, etc....
Seems to me if you're going to claim "supernova killed the mammoths", pitted craters in mammoth tusks is not primary evidence to validate your claim..
The primary evidence is the remains of a supernova..
Where is it???

37 posted on 10/05/2005 3:46:11 AM PDT by Drammach (Freedom; not just a job, it's an adventure..)
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To: Restorer

Sorry, bad wording. I very much doubt folk memory of Neanderthals is behind this Bible story.


38 posted on 10/05/2005 3:47:55 AM PDT by Restorer (Illegitimati non carborundum)
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To: planetesimal

My previous posts were written before reading the article.

Bad habit.

But seriously, folks, this is a truly idiotic article. To believe it, you must believe that a supernova 250 light years from Earth affected North America, and only NA, in at least two separate events tens of thousands of years apart.

It seems to me that mammoth tusks riddled with iron-rich particles would be more likely to be related to a localized event, perhaps a volcanic eruption, than to an astronomical event that mysteriously affects all of NA but not the rest of the planet.

You must also believe that saber-toothed cats were less able to take shelter in a cave or elsewhere than elk or moose or (regular-size) bison!

It is possible that the actual science makes more sense than this idiot article.


39 posted on 10/05/2005 3:58:17 AM PDT by Restorer (Illegitimati non carborundum)
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To: planetesimal

That was interesting, Thanks.


40 posted on 10/05/2005 4:12:45 AM PDT by PeteB570
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To: Caipirabob
..a 6–12-month-old male named “Dima.”

Geez, how did they ever find out his name???

41 posted on 10/05/2005 4:12:46 AM PDT by Jaxter ("Vivit Post Funera Virtus")
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To: planetesimal

Easily testable...

If the tusks are riddled with craters, there should be some of the causative material embedded in them, one would think.


42 posted on 10/05/2005 4:14:46 AM PDT by Adder (Can we bring back stoning again? Please?)
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To: John Valentine

A Neandertal mitochondrial DNA sequence has been constructed and compared with homo sapien mitochondrial DNA. The comparison supported the idea that they didn't interbreed.


43 posted on 10/05/2005 4:19:24 AM PDT by bobdsmith
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To: Drammach
Seems to me that if there were a Supernova blast within 250 LY of earth, even 40K years ago, there would be ample astronomical evidence of such.

I'd like to know if that is the case also. If anyone in the know could weigh in...

44 posted on 10/05/2005 4:25:03 AM PDT by planetesimal (All is flux)
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To: planetesimal
Interesting article as I was just looking at this bass online last night, the "oldest bass in the world"

The inlay is made from Mastadon tusk. I did a search for mammoth tusk and found that there is a lot on the market via Ebay, primarily from Siberian origin and sells as carved figurines.

45 posted on 10/05/2005 4:30:25 AM PDT by Rebelbase (New Orleans rebuild by Mexican Labor will produce crawfish tacos and menuedo-gumbo.)
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To: Rebelbase
I would have looked here
46 posted on 10/05/2005 4:35:46 AM PDT by ASA Vet (Osama Bin Laden Al Khanzier)
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To: planetesimal

I think fad dieting killed them.


47 posted on 10/05/2005 4:36:28 AM PDT by Rocky (Air America: Robbing the poor to feed the Left)
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To: John Valentine

I wonder whether the Northern European troll myths are a folk memory of the last Neaderthals. Presumably places like Norway would have been their last holdouts.


48 posted on 10/05/2005 4:38:17 AM PDT by Killing Time
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To: planetesimal
The real cause of the disappearance of the mamouth:


49 posted on 10/05/2005 4:44:40 AM PDT by kidd
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To: Jaxter
Geez, how did they ever find out his name???

Driver's license I would imagine. Mastodons and mammoths are very law-abiding creatures.

50 posted on 10/05/2005 5:12:34 AM PDT by TN4Liberty (American... conservative... southern.... It doesn't get any better than this.)
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